Dev Stream 82: Endless Relic missions feedback

[eviad]

their new endless system is just useless. quoting: "you can now do endless mission and farming prime parts in the meantime", just wtf? the problem was that there was no point doing endless mission anyway! this won't solve the problem, we need a actual REWARD for making it more challenging!

[KirukaChan]

I still remember when I was excited for the Focus System, since I was under the impression that it would give me more options gear-wise for grinding (any rank 30 gear's affinity would contribute to Focus).

Then DE tacked on Lenses at the last minute, which pigeonholed us into only using certain gear if we wanted to gain Focus. I bet if people knew about the Lens thing sooner, they would have spoken out against it.

I hope that with this Relic fiasco, DE listens to all these threads.

[eviad]

In fact, we should have somehing like: every 20 minutes, the odds of having a better reward are increasing, or, every 20 minutes we can choose 1 reward among 2 instead of one for each player (so if you are 4 playesr in the game, you can choose a reward among 8) 

[(PSN)FifaFutgiveaway]

6 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

 

They could fix ANYTHING in this game, but you know they can't / don't want to lower the grinding.

 

Why won't they fix anything in this game? I'm sorry, but they said they don't want the grind to increase so they could fix this.

3 minutes ago, Rorgal_Sina said:

Multiple radiant rewards per relic feels broken though.

Why? Don't you want to get your worth per key? And if it was that op, maybe they could just decrease the chance.

4 minutes ago, ragingdeamon said:

this is the old key system that was scrapped because no one was doing non endless missions. if this is implemented, the problem will be worse than before, since you will be able to choose your missions and your reward table at the same time. will not happen. 

Nobody was doing them? Your evidence please, because i was doing them. Heck i even have a 3 hour survival on my channel and even their most subbed content creators was doing them.

 

5 minutes ago, ragingdeamon said:

this was not true when keys were around, you cannot ask for something that was never there.

Expand on this point please, as i don't know what you mean.

[Mmillion1]

DE, in combination with the endless relic system, could we have a percentage of the reward rarity also increase every round. I feel this would get people to stay in endless missions longer. For example if the percentage increased by 3% every round or 5mins this would incentivize people to stay until like 50mins where the percentage would be 30%. I feel 30% would be enough because there are four players with a chance to get different rewards, but if players want a higher chance all they'll have to do is to play for longer.

[Trichouette]

1 minute ago, KirukaChan said:

I still remember when I was excited for the Focus System, since I was under the impression that it would give me more options gear-wise for grinding (any rank 30 gear's affinity would contribute to Focus).

Then DE tacked on Lenses at the last minute, which pigeonholed us into only using certain gear if we wanted to gain Focus. I bet if people knew about the Lens thing sooner, they would have spoken out against it.

I hope that with this Relic fiasco, DE listens to all these threads.

And this is why I always say that "hype" is a stupid thing :D

Once again, so many feedback, so many rework suggestion, and they won't listen.

Just now, (PS4)FifaFutgiveaway said:

Why won't they fix anything in this game? I'm sorry, but they said they don't want the grind to increase so they could fix this

Not increasing the grind and not lowering it are 2 different things...

[Kagutsuchi07]

Hello. First off sorry for any spelling errors I'm not a native english speaker.

Now for endless:

I had this idea for a while, but after seeing last devstream i decided to post it.

When starting fissure survival/defense/interception missions, you won't choose relic to open. Relics will be random based on mission level. So on earth you will get Lith rewards, on ceres Meso, etc. Missions will be played same as now - you have to get 10 reactant to open relic every 5 waves/minutes or a round in interception. So when all players collect 10 reactant relics and round is finished, you will get prime part based on: on first rotation (20 minutes/waves, 4 rounds on interception) game will give random Intact relic to all players and open it, but only one reward will be given to players. It will be rarest reward from all relic or i case 2 uncommons drop, it will be chosen randomly from those two uncommons. So all players get same rarest reward. Or in case RNGsus hates them 1 random common reward. So it won't be best way to farm one specific prime part.

There will be no pause in mission and reward will be shown like before SotR update.

If 2 players get same relic it will be upgraded to Exceptional, but those two relics will be "merged" (eg. 2 Intact Lith A1 will be upgraded to 1 Exceptional Lith A1), so now prime part will be chosen from 3 rewards (reward from Exceptional Lith A1 and from other 2 Lith relics). Similiar with situation when 3 players get same relic, but it will be merged and upgraded to Flawless, so reward will be chosen from 2 relics (reward from Flawless Lith A1 and form other lith relic). Chance for 2 of same relic to drop from 6(number of different Lith relics that can be aquired now) is low and even lower for 3 or 4 of them. So it will be very rare to get Radiant relic on first full rotation.

On second full rotation (waves/minutes 25, 30, 35, 40 or round 5-8 on interception) all relics will have great chance to become Exceptional (75% seems good) and similiar "merge" mechanic will be applied to them. But only in situation when it's exact same relic (eg. 2 Exceptional Lith A1 relic will be upgraded to 1 Flawless Lith A1 relic). On third full rotation relics will be Exceptional and have great chance to be Flawless. On fourth full rotation relics will be Flawless with chance for Radiant. And on fifth full rotation and onwards all relics wil be Radiant. It's at 80+ minutes in survival so it wont be easy and you still have to collect 10 reactant every 5 minutes to get a reward.

So to tweak it a bit players will get less traces, so after collecting 10 reactant amount of traces will be chosen from 3-15. So to farm traces it will be faster to run exterminate/capture or other mission types.

Also it would be good if relic would be randomised based on rotation. So on rotation A players get Lith relic, on rotation B players will have chance to get Meso(25%) relic and o rotation C players will get Meso relic. Rotation B will have 4 Lith and 2 Meso relics to choose randomly based on mission location.

 

Same idea can be applied to standard endless mission but this case you will get double reward on second full rotation, triple on third etc. Maybe something like +25% to drop amount every full rotation would be good as well. So on waves/minutes 40-45 players will have +50% resource/credits drop and wave/minute 45 reward will be 3 relics (eg. 3 Lith A1). 

 

That's about it. Feel free to tweak this idea, and tell me what you think about it - if i missed something more or less obvious, or some errors in text. I will correct it then.

[ArcaneSnowdrop]

@(PS4)FifaFutgiveaway You misread that--It's not that no-one was doing Endless, like Survival, it's that no-one was doing non-endless, like Capture.

[(PSN)FifaFutgiveaway]

1 minute ago, Trichouette said:

Not increasing the grind and not lowering it are 2 different things...

Umm, that was not your point. Your point was:

 

12 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

They could fix ANYTHING in this game, but you know they can't / don't want to lower the grinding

You are implying that they could fix anything but they can't as they don't want to decrease the grind.

[Trichouette]

1 minute ago, (PS4)FifaFutgiveaway said:

Umm, that was not your point. Your point was:

 

You are implying that they could fix anything but they can't as they don't want to decrease the grind.

Yes, they won't lower the grind, that's why you won't be able to use one relic for 4 rotations.

But some stuff could be fixed without lowering the grind... They just won't do it either

Edited October 29, 2016 by Trichouette

[(PSN)FifaFutgiveaway]

Just now, ArcaneSnowdrop said:

@(PS4)FifaFutgiveaway You misread that--It's not that no-one was doing Endless, like Survival, it's that no-one was doing non-endless, like Capture.

People was doing loads of captures and still are. As shown in the previous devstreams in their mission charts. So this isn't a valid comment.

[LABAL]

So you just go through your regular relics as usual, but the enemies get tougher with each one?
And I'm willing to bet that at the end you get about 15 void traces, no matter how long you stayed at least until the first hotfix.

Edited October 29, 2016 by LABAL

[ArcaneSnowdrop]

Just now, (PS4)FifaFutgiveaway said:

People was doing loads of captures and still are. As shown in the previous devstreams in their mission charts. So this isn't a valid comment.

Oh, I agree! I did a LOT of captures. Sorry, never added that bit, apparently. I just wanted you to know you'd misread it.

[ragingdeamon]

1 minute ago, (PS4)FifaFutgiveaway said:

Nobody was doing them? Your evidence please, because i was doing them. Heck i even have a 3 hour survival on my channel and even their most subbed content creators was doing them.

I think you miised the "non" part of "non endless" missions in my statement. nobody was doing non endless missions. you have countless 1+ hour survivals to your name, which are far more worth than the same amount of capture missions. if you wanted to farm for ducats, forma or affinity, endless is where you went. 

the majority of other people didn't do non endless missions either. 

4 minutes ago, (PS4)FifaFutgiveaway said:

Expand on this point please, as i don't know what you mean.

original statement:

28 minutes ago, (PS4)FifaFutgiveaway said:

edit: This system is also flawed, as you can stay for 5 waves and join back in and have the same chance to get what you want instead of staying against harder enemies the higher the wave/minute.

the old system had the same flaw. more rolls of a dice doesn't improve any singular dice roll. if you were fine with this before, you should be fine with this now. 

[Misgenesis]

This kinda defeats the purpose of doing away with old void anyway. If we get increasing numbers of traces then endless is the go to for prime parts and traces.

And i dunno about anyone else but endless is what caused the most fatigue for me.

[(PSN)FifaFutgiveaway]

4 minutes ago, ragingdeamon said:

the old system had the same flaw. more rolls of a dice doesn't improve any singular dice roll. if you were fine with this before, you should be fine with this now.

That's not the point, you're wasting more relics to have it harder to get the reward as the enemies level go up, when you could just re run the mission to wave 5 and still have the same chance to get whatever it is with no challenge at all. And if you do stay longer, you're just wasting your time.

[CCamp88]

All these suggestions.. the FIRST thing they need/should do on the subject is make it so that fissures missions are actually Defense type. lol

As for my thoughts on making endless rewarding. I think it should make it so that for 1, you can get your relic back (well, not necessarily the same one, but a new one of the same type) after reaching so many waves/time. Also, I do believe that getting More than 1 reward for a relic is broken. I feel the longer you stay in a mission, the greater your odds should be for getting X item, that is, in the sense that A) you get more than 1 "roll"  from RNGesus, or B) the % increases slight.  If anything, they could do it like the old (old old way back ) where every reward would be such, and you could stay, but your reward would be that you picked, not all of them together. Meaning you could get either A, B, or C.. not  A B and C.  

Also, keep in mind this subject is pretty much two fold..    Endless missions... and Fissure Endless missions. 

As some one who would do 1+ survivals, 40+waves (granted thats not too long) pretty much every time id do a survival or defense, I miss it

Regards,

 

-CCamp88

 

[ragingdeamon]

1 minute ago, (PS4)FifaFutgiveaway said:

That's not the point, you're wasting more relics to have it harder to get the reward as the enemies level go up, when you could just re run the mission to wave 5 and still have the same chance to get whatever it is with no challenge at all. And if you do stay longer, you're just wasting your time.

I would say it's more time efficent to not sit through two loading screens and select the mission again. but this is not going to get anyone anywhere. 

I'll say it again, the system that you want is, in fact, the old key system, and we did away with it, for reasons that I have shown you. 

I think that players are thinking in the mindset of "more rewards, less relics spent", which is what the old system was, while now DE is more thinking about "more rewards, less time spent" mentality. that's something that is solved on the design level more than on any singular mechanics. and thinking about it, everything that doesn't involve keys is built this way in warframe. it's up to the devs to decide what to do with that. and it seems they have a pretty solid stance on things.

[ragingdeamon]

1 minute ago, CCamp88 said:

All these suggestions.. the FIRST thing they need/should do on the subject is make it so that fissures missions are actually Defense type. lol

As for my thoughts on making endless rewarding. I think it should make it so that for 1, you can get your relic back (well, not necessarily the same one, but a new one of the same type) after reaching so many waves/time. Also, I do believe that getting More than 1 reward for a relic is broken. I feel the longer you stay in a mission, the greater your odds should be for getting X item, that is, in the sense that A) you get more than 1 "roll"  from RNGesus, or B) the % increases slight.  If anything, they could do it like the old (old old way back ) where every reward would be such, and you could stay, but your reward would be that you picked, not all of them together. Meaning you could get either A, B, or C.. not  A B and C.  

Also, keep in mind this subject is pretty much two fold..    Endless missions... and Fissure Endless missions. 

As some one who would do 1+ survivals, 40+waves (granted thats not too long) pretty much every time id do a survival or defense, I miss it

Regards,

 

-CCamp88

 

from what I've seen in the devstream, you still get normal mission rewards on top of the relics reward, so you can farm for relics while using relics. the problem actually becomes endo, since you use that in far greater numbers than any one relic type. 

[Volinus7]

Endless means "Buffet".

[(PSN)lhbuch]

It would be nice if in addition to more traces, the chance for rare loot would increase the more you stay.

[DesuTronic]

4 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Finally you can use those 6 forma weapons on some high level baddies, instead of pointing it in the vague direction of a mouse and nuking the place. I really just want to play the game again instead of playing Netflix, and I believe that's exactly what this will accomplish.

If I really want a test for my 5 forma tigris prime then that is what the 3rd sortie survival in an eximus stronghold is for. Enemies start at lvl 100 and all of them have multiple layers of buffs on them. To get to that kind of level normally I'd have to play 40 minutes of a normal survival which is boring and the rewards wont be anything good either, just more ducats.

The only thing that would fix this is if they made endless rathuum with relics. At least there we can kill lvl 100 special enemeis and have a good chance of getting 200 endo per kill while also getting some prime stuff on the side.

TL;DR there are already multiple much better ways to "test your skill". Right now no one does it because it gives no rewards. Getting more fissures is as good as getting no rewards which changes nothing.

Edited October 29, 2016 by DesuTronic

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

I agree with a lot of what you said in your op, but you hit the nail on the head with

12 hours ago, -JT-_-R3W1ND said:

This was litterally thing what catch me in Warframe -- do defense faster and was reason to test new frames, form my weapon, create tactics.

This is an enormous problem with the fissure system. DE removed the game play and replaced it with an animation. They literally could have removed the void and replaced it with a slot machine that you can only use a relic on once every couple of minutes and I'd feel the same way.

[TheLexiConArtist]

I've finally subjected myself to the Fissure system in earnest - dreading the outcome, I haven't yet gone for Nekros Prime and his weaponry.

 

Until now.

Jesus. Christ.

 

You know what just screams fun to me? A 20 minute wait for a chance at a chance of getting a drop you need. Chance at the right relic. Chance at getting the right reward.

Add in the 3+ missions in between to farm traces up for making them Radiant, and you have a 5 minute attempt at getting something you want in between a minimum of 35 minutes of tedious busywork to prepare for that moment.

 

Realistically, you're not going to get that one relic you're looking for every time you hit the right rotation in your endless, so let's give it something less ideal but still generous. Let's say you get one in three drops for the relevant relic(s).

 

75 minutes of busywork for 5 minutes to have a pull on the RNG slot machine. Accounting for the group's relics I've been running with, that makes 0 rare drops for 32 radiant relics spent, and 8 effective grind periods of 75 minutes each, totalling 10 hours of playtime with almost nothing to show for it but a meagre handful of Ducats.

 

And this is 'better' than the old system how? I don't care how many hours I spent in Tower 3 Survivals grinding for rotation C drops - at least that was a chance every 20 minutes with rewards in the interim.

Better yet, you could go piggybacking on other people's keys where they had excess spaces, whereas now you have to grind up your own Radiant Relic to partake of the "improvements" to the system overall.

 

So now, we have the proposed Endless change - where you can spend even more relics to stay in the same mission longer and get additional pulls of the slot machine? That doesn't solve the problem of those 75 minutes of preparation, it just means that you can do three or four hours solid grinding prepwork to spend it all in one mission over the course of that same 20 minutes.

 

DE, please. Fissures have failed to improve the quality of life. You gave us an improvement by letting us skew the drop rates, but then put that same grind back in four times over with the workload that it takes to make proper use of that option.

[Chipputer]

4 hours ago, ragingdeamon said:

from what I've seen in the devstream, you still get normal mission rewards on top of the relics reward, so you can farm for relics while using relics.

Which, minus using multiple relics, is the way the current system works already. This is literally a net positive. Stay for 20 waves, walk out with a few replacement relics for the 4 that you spent and walk away with 4 prime parts/forma. Also have a much faster intake of Void Traces (apparently).