Dev Stream 82: Endless Relic missions feedback

[Callback]

Void keys:

4 runs per keyshare.

Multiple loot per survival. interception, defense, sabotage (cache rewards).

Reason to do actual difficult content and go as long as you can with the group. (nobody runs ANYTHING for "as long as possible" anymore.)

Reason to join random keyshares even if you don't need the same thing as them (since again, joining a group means 4x runs per key, and more duck fodder)

 

Void Relics:

1 run per radshare.

1 loot per any mission.  Best to just run capture and finish in 2 minutes.

People only join radshares for the thing they need.  This makes grouping impossible for certain relics.  People don't volunteer their relics/traces just to fill slots like they did with keys.

Better odds at the rare when you DO get a radshare going (the main draw)

Faster and way easier runs for that rare.

But not actually faster since you spend way more time grinding the relics themselves, and grinding out traces.  And easier isn't always a good thing.  It's not as rewarding without a challenge.

Easy to pub duck farm with automatic matchmaking (the other big positive).

 

 

So here's the thing.  Keys made the process of running way better.  Easy to find a group, and actual challenging and rewarding runs once inside.  Primes were a proper reward for the difficulty required to farm them, and hard work was paid off with piles of ducats for doing well in longer harder missions.

 

People say relics make getting the thing you want faster but that's a lie.  Farming specific relics in the new system is a pain, and adds way more grind than getting keys ever was, especially considering that it's 1 loot roll per relic no matter what.  Then you have to farm traces.  Grindy and annoying.  No challenge, just run chiken prime through some lith capture/exterminates and rush to the exit.  Finally you can spend hours looking for a group that actually wants to radshare your very specific relic.  This is the worst part.  Once ALL that is done, you speedrun a 2 minute rescue and get a forma because RNG.  Then someone leaves the group because they only had 1 copy of the relic (because step 1 really is an issue) and that's it.

 

So how can we fix the system to be the best of both worlds?

 

Increase relic drops.  Relics in more rotations.  Relics in the void and derelict (not just endless missions).  Multiple relics per rotation in def/sur/int missions.  Make it easier to find specifics through sheer volume, and get tons of extras to use as fodder for what I'm about to explain.

Remove reactant and traces in their current form.  We're going to be replacing it.

Reactant is now somewhat like a void key.  At your relic table you can now convert unwanted relics into reactant of that tier.  Reactant is now required inside of a fissure mission.   A structure spawns requiring reactant be placed inside it to close the fissure and claim your reward at the mission's end.  Each player must individually insert theirs to claim their ? reward.  Endless missions will need to be filled each round.

Void Traces now come in different types and are the rewards for fissure missions.  There are the 4 types for the 4 tiers, and each of those can be normal, bright, or radiant.  You can use these at your relic table to crack open relics.  Regular traces pull from the full drop pool.  Bright remove all commons from the pool, and radiant guarantee the rare reward.  Odds of getting each as a mission reward are about equal to the odds of 1 person in your group getting that tier as a choice is currently.

Endless missions gain a reason to stay.  Odds of better tier traces would increase based on the round number.  Not even in ABC rotations, just continuous increase the further you go.  You're still spending 1 reactant per round to keep going, but each round is better and better rare reward chances as long as you can succeed.

Randoms have a reason to group.  Since rewards are tied to the relic tier instead of one specific relic, filling groups becomes much easier.

 

Rework duck prices to favor higher tier relic items a bit more heavily.  Otherwise endless lith would be the only preferred farm.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Callback

[erny0507]

Just now, julianattack said:

I miss old void. Endless t4 int or survival were why I played warframe, now I can't find that spark. 

I feel the same, Hieracon gave me that for a while but after stacking up relics Hieracon turn into just some credits and criotic farm which im not interested.

[Chipputer]

18 minutes ago, Callback said:

People say relics make getting the thing you want faster but that's a lie.

I love how you can make this definitive statement.

It's not worse. It's just also not necessarily better. The grinds are almost the exact same (relics are frontloaded, keys were endloaded) unless you're going for a specific item. Then you can optionally farm traces to get specific relic rarity in order to significantly cut down the number of average runs that you'd have to do.

Need I remind you how annoying it was to farm for some specific keys that seemed to never drop, only to then realize that you spent 20 minutes on that key and got two forma, a pack of fusion cores, and a Bo Prime Ornament? Take off the rose-tinted glasses.

[Callback]

5 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I love how you can make this definitive statement.

It's not worse. It's just also not necessarily better. The grinds are almost the exact same (relics are frontloaded, keys were endloaded) unless you're going for a specific item. Then you can optionally farm traces to get specific relic rarity in order to significantly cut down the number of average runs that you'd have to do.

Need I remind you how annoying it was to farm for some specific keys that seemed to never drop, only to then realize that you spent 20 minutes on that key and got two forma, a pack of fusion cores, and a Bo Prime Ornament? Take off the rose-tinted glasses.

Either way, I did propose a fully reworked fissure system that should satisfy everyone.

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, Callback said:

Either way, I did propose a fully reworked fissure system that should satisfy everyone.

I actually quite like your suggestion on purely aesthetic grounds:

 

I like the idea that all of the Relic cracking actually takes place back onboard my Orbiter, using materials painstakingly gathered from Void Fissures. It pleases me.

[Vaizrin]

Automatically upgrading the relic has some potential but also brings in new abuse. Players will only want endless missions once more which means every time they pop up they are the mode that gets spammed leaving everything else behind once more.

Honestly I think these are all symptoms of a difference issue all together. Currently starchart is extremely easy and most players see the prime parts as "end game content." Which honestly it kind of is and kind of isn't. I mean a new player can start getting prime parts very early on now as long as they have the needed MR. It isn't really end game content in reality.

Instead I'd much rather see the sortie system get revamped and developed into a genuine end game content with its own set of unique rewards. Damage 3.0 really needs to get here so we can see some actual end game content come to fruition because until that happens the high level mobs are just bullet sponges that one shot and require constant CC. Making avoiding them a better tactic than killing them.

[Ailissa]

4 minutes ago, Callback said:

Either way, I did propose a fully reworked fissure system that should satisfy everyone.

Except you missed the point that some of us don't want to do endless missions again .... ever.

 

I'm happy with the system we have now. It was the endless runs that caused the fun to get sucked out of the game for me and for me to leave for over a year.

 

If endless becomes the only way to get primes again then i'll be gone again. Nothing, not a single thing, will ever get me back in those missions. 

[Callback]

12 minutes ago, Ailissa said:

Except you missed the point that some of us don't want to do endless missions again .... ever.

 

I'm happy with the system we have now. It was the endless runs that caused the fun to get sucked out of the game for me and for me to leave for over a year.

 

If endless becomes the only way to get primes again then i'll be gone again. Nothing, not a single thing, will ever get me back in those missions. 

But you wouldn't have to.  It becomes an option for people who want better rewards, but just grinding finite missions is still viable.  Nothing is locked behind either.  Endless just gives you more bright/radiant for the same number of reactants put in, while capture spam converts your reactants into (mostly low grade) traces more quickly.  

 

They should balance to require similar total grind length, with capture spam frontloaded into getting tons of relics, and endless runs backloaded into longer missions, but getting all the good rewards at once with less junk.  Ducks per time should be fairly even between the two as well.  Either a massive pile of junk or a small hoard of treasures.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Callback

[TheLexiConArtist]

My thread appears to have been unceremoniously mixed in here in the most jarring, opaque manner possible, that's lovely. Thought it'd been deleted until I checked my profile and saw a thread in my activity I hadn't actually replied to.

 

In other news;

 

It's so much better to play this new system, who cares if you need to grind out tens upon tens of brand new keys for every new part (in between farming a hundred traces for each)?

 

Just do Xini, they said. You'll get the new relics you need easily, they said.

Nope, too bad, I endure 12 waves of the irritating tedium that is solo interception and get 6 Axi relics that are useless to me and will never automagically become more relevant because, unlike keys, they will never contain anything newly released. So that's strictly wasted effort. Yay.

Interception caps, by a rough eyeballing estimate, at 1% per 2 seconds with all points. There's a 15 second loot screen delay, mercifully soloing lets you skip the loot screen wait itself (add another ~3-5 seconds for it to load, I guess).

Not even counting the time taken to initially capture and potentially having to recapture points, that's an absolute minimum of 12*100*2 + 12*15 + 12*3 = 12*218 = 2516 seconds or roughly 42 minutes of time invested into something that barely engages me on even the most superficial level with essentially nothing to show for it but Ducat farming with the proceeds which holds no more value than if they were Lith relics.

 

I guess the Neo V3s are at least somewhat useful, but they're more accessible than Axi relics already.

 

On a happier note, at least, 80 total radiant relics in (counting squadmates), I finally did get one rare item drop. 20 keys and 2000 traces painstakingly ground out per desirable item. So much for a 'vastly better drop rate'.

42 minutes for 6 axi relics, 20 relics acquired in roughly 140 minutes. 2000 traces, even if getting 30 per ~5minute run, is another 333 minutes. Another 5-10 minutes per relic mission, and we have a healthy total of 573 minutes, or almost ten hours for a single part in an ideal grind situation.

Multiply that for every low-dropping trace run, every junk Axi reward, and how is this possibly any better than before

 

You could argue the anecdotes and say I was just horrendously unlucky here and there, but between that and the enormous generosity on the relic/trace grind calculations, it likely evens out much the same.

Edited November 1, 2016 by EDYinnit

[(PSN)LeonidasxGGG]

Do them for relics!
I realized this when I did hyperion (excavation against infested) and it was a lot of fun, and a lot of challenge. You (or the team) can leave anytime (don't have to wait 5 minutes like in survival or 5 waves like defense) and we got +2000 criotic and 5 Axi relics. Better than Hydron.

I have mastery rank 18 and have been playing for a year now and I much rather prefer this method than the old one. It's a lot more fair for causal players (more players = more choices) and we have much better chances to get the item we wanted (if everyone has the same relic at the same level).

When the new endless relic system is implemented this will also be a good way to have multiple relics giving you more itens one after the other... Although, I would like to see the ods improving with each 5waves/5minutes. But for the most part I am with DE on this one.

[ranks21]

6 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

My thread appears to have been unceremoniously mixed in here in the most jarring, opaque manner possible, that's lovely. Thought it'd been deleted until I checked my profile and saw a thread in my activity I hadn't actually replied to.

 

In other news;

 

It's so much better to play this new system, who cares if you need to grind out tens upon tens of brand new keys for every new part (in between farming a hundred traces for each)?

 

Just do Xini, they said. You'll get the new relics you need easily, they said.

Nope, too bad, I endure 12 waves of the irritating tedium that is solo interception and get 6 Axi relics that are useless to me and will never automagically become more relevant because, unlike keys, they will never contain anything newly released. So that's strictly wasted effort. Yay.

Interception caps, by a rough eyeballing estimate, at 1% per 2 seconds with all points. There's a 15 second loot screen delay, mercifully soloing lets you skip the loot screen wait itself (add another ~3-5 seconds for it to load, I guess).

Not even counting the time taken to initially capture and potentially having to recapture points, that's an absolute minimum of 12*100*2 + 12*15 + 12*3 = 12*218 = 2516 seconds or roughly 42 minutes of time invested into something that barely engages me on even the most superficial level with essentially nothing to show for it but Ducat farming with the proceeds which holds no more value than if they were Lith relics.

 

I guess the Neo V3s are at least somewhat useful, but they're more accessible than Axi relics already.

 

On a happier note, at least, 80 total radiant relics in (counting squadmates), I finally did get one rare item drop. 20 keys and 2000 traces painstakingly ground out per desirable item. So much for a 'vastly better drop rate'.

lol why bother with this garbage when you can let the blinded do all the work wait a bit and get said items on the cheap or even free...no sense in trying to reason with these "DE can do no wrong" worshipers, common sense isn't their strong suits..

[Antiphoton]

While partly I agree with you, it can also be argued that staying beyond rotation C is not optimal, in the sense that you would get rewards faster if you just quit then and start the mission again.

Going endless in missions in the star chart is very fun, I like to do it quite often, but when the dificulty scales and the rewards don't, my OCD is triggered.

For some people part of the fun in grinding games, or games in general, is not only in the gameplay itself, but in setting a goal, learning the system, and then getting to understand it so well that you can efficiently carve your own path to achieve said goal. With the current system you reach a point in which you realize that in order to achieve your goal (which in most cases is farming for some rare part), it's more optimal to stick to the easier waves and then rinse-and-repeat.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Antiphoton

[-skimmer-]

Seems mostly useless considering it doesnt make relic>prime parts conversion any more efficient. We already know people would rather play easy mode to guarantee their reward and bore themselves against low level enemies.

 

edit:

Oh, somehow I thought its thread about their proposal for endless fissure missions. Im not deleting it.

Edited November 1, 2016 by -skimmer-

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

here is what i see as a good end game. you have void fissure missions that can be endless BUUUUT you dont need a relic equipped.

Void traces are specifically dropping on these missions.

Instead of reactants we should use void traces to open relics.

Or

make reactants become a collectible like other mats. so in void missions you can collect them infinitely. then relics can be opened by them on liset.

[Angrados]

5 hours ago, Vaizrin said:

Automatically upgrading the relic has some potential but also brings in new abuse. Players will only want endless missions once more which means every time they pop up they are the mode that gets spammed leaving everything else behind once more.

Honestly I think these are all symptoms of a difference issue all together. Currently starchart is extremely easy and most players see the prime parts as "end game content." Which honestly it kind of is and kind of isn't. I mean a new player can start getting prime parts very early on now as long as they have the needed MR. It isn't really end game content in reality.

Instead I'd much rather see the sortie system get revamped and developed into a genuine end game content with its own set of unique rewards. Damage 3.0 really needs to get here so we can see some actual end game content come to fruition because until that happens the high level mobs are just bullet sponges that one shot and require constant CC. Making avoiding them a better tactic than killing them.

Just for the record, I do believe they mentioned a new system tying into the Sorties on the advent of TWW, so you may not have long to wait for that.

As for this whole shenaniganry with "THE ENDLESS VOID" that people like to throw about as if it has some sort of real depth and meaning, it was something that also burnt out tons of players. Just because you weren't as quick to burn out doing endless missions starting at the tileset for literally hundreds of hours at a time doesn't mean that it wasn't toxic to the rest of the game. I will grant, however, that the loss of the Old Endless has definitely left a (pardon the pun) void where it used to be, though not nearly for the same reasons as everybody seems to be complaining about. What I miss about the old Void was not the ability to get 8 parts in a single 40-wave run on a T4 Defense, nor the ability to go literally hours into an endless mission. Instead, I miss being able to get together easily with other players and just going for it, as I learned quite a bit about the game from doing that, and it shaped my entire experience. If anything, the inability for players to find squads for their relics easily is what's causing most of the problem on a community level. In terms of gameplay, the relic system is right where it should be--balanced, with a buff on the way that allows people to use more relics.

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

if you will just make reactants farmable instead of 10 per mission the players will have better reasons to do void fissures endlessly you can make the reactant drops rare and increase requirement to open a relic to balance. then use that reactant to open a relic in liset.

void traces are still there to upgrade a relic but refined relics will need more reactant to open.

1. prime farming can be slowed down by increasing requirement if this is what de wants. it still have that 1 relic per item policy.

2. veterans have reasons to push their frames to the limit. as level goes up more enemies more reactants.

3. new players still have access to it by staying on lower levels.

 

what do you guys think?

Edited November 1, 2016 by (PS4)wildcats1369my

[Katinka]

Have you seen the latest Devstream and the changes to endless missions and Relics showcased in it?

https://youtu.be/56KO3oJvXwQ?t=13m50s

 

Edited November 1, 2016 by Katinka

[(XBOX)freakytiki3]

meh, idk the system works fairly smoothly right now, i'm pretty sure the reason DE didn't add endless fissures missions initially is that they didn't want people to take advantage of the better drop chances for rare rewards. The system they revealed in the devstream seems to go along with that idea seeing as every continuation requires a new relic and new reactants for that new relic to unlock. I don't really understand the desire for endless fissure missions anyway why repeat the same mission at higher difficulty for the same chances of a rare reward.

[artemisfortune]

59 minutes ago, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

meh, idk the system works fairly smoothly right now, i'm pretty sure the reason DE didn't add endless fissures missions initially is that they didn't want people to take advantage of the better drop chances for rare rewards. The system they revealed in the devstream seems to go along with that idea seeing as every continuation requires a new relic and new reactants for that new relic to unlock. I don't really understand the desire for endless fissure missions anyway why repeat the same mission at higher difficulty for the same chances of a rare reward.

boom.

Endless missions are only there because people asked for it. I'm just waiting for it's implementation so people can say "but the rewards are the same!"

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

11 minutes ago, Katinka said:

Have you seen the latest Devstream and the changes to endless missions and Relics showcased in it?

https://youtu.be/56KO3oJvXwQ?t=13m50s

 

yeah and many dont like it.

[artemisfortune]

1 hour ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

yeah and many dont like it.

what? how could you possibly know that? it's exactly what people were asking for.

Edited November 1, 2016 by JSharpie

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

have you read the thread about dev 82?

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

You guys may want to give this a listen.

During The Second Stream podcast, H3dsh0t asks Rebecca if traces will have "some kind of multiplier" in endless. She answers with, "Yes, that's the idea." That answer seems to indicate endless fissures will have an actual risk/reward mechanic, rather than just letting you get another roll of 6-30 more traces every rotation. This could have been miscommunication, but the surrounding statements support that interpretation.

Fingers crossed.

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

6 hours ago, JSharpie said:

I disagree with everything you've said. Picking stuff up takes no time at all, and often I pick up most of my reactant accidentally. The proposed system can't  be bad because you haven't used it yet. You could theorize, but all we've seen is WIP stuff. On top of that, the relic system works well, and allows for truly endless play, which is what people begged for. Ducats and Traces shouldn't be farmed in just one mission type over and over, and the relic system is a step towards moving away from that mentality. Instead of letting the game play for you, you actually have to put effort into playing the game.

I have no idea how you do it, couse you need to stand at reactant a bit.

Second, yes YOU CAN imagine thing then you hear description. This is pretty easy. And i see no reason in devstream if we don't do this.

Just an example. DE mention they think about increase tracers drop in "endless" mission. This mean, you will have to do it if you intrested in tracers... Ok, maybe you right and YOU can't see the future.

And i just don't get it, in Void i do defense, sabotage, capture/exterminate, survival and interception. Now i do fissure only. How this is step towards?

 

[Chipputer]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

You guys may want to give this a listen.

During The Second Stream podcast, H3dsh0t asks Rebecca if traces will have "some kind of multiplier" in endless. She answers with, "Yes, that's the idea." That answer seems to indicate endless fissures will have an actual risk/reward mechanic, rather than just letting you get another roll of 6-30 more traces every rotation. This could have been miscommunication, but the surrounding statements support that interpretation.

Fingers crossed.

It's also important to note that they're not fully against the idea of giving other incentives (such as free quality upgrades to your relics), but that they don't want the endless to just be the go-to relic farming meta all over again. This was also stated very clearly within the podcast. The system is still in its infancy and very, very subject to change.