Dev Stream 82: Endless Relic missions feedback

[xRufus7x]

1 minute ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

You guys may want to give this a listen.

During The Second Stream podcast, H3dsh0t asks Rebecca if traces will have "some kind of multiplier" in endless. She answers with, "Yes, that's the idea." That answer seems to indicate endless fissures will have an actual risk/reward mechanic, rather than just letting you get another roll of 6-30 more traces every rotation. This could have been miscommunication, but the surrounding statements support that interpretation.

Fingers crossed.

Thing is reactant is not all that hard to farm and has a built in cap. People wanted endless missions back because they wanted the additional rewards the void provided in the form of prime parts and dukat fodder. Reactant in its current state won't fill that role. To each their own but I doubt people will push very far into these if that is the motivation.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

5 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

what? how could you possibly know that? it's exactly what people were asking for.

Not quite. There are a few threads on this topic already.

Basically, the assumption we're under is that endless missions will let you equip another relic each rotation, and you'll have to collect 10 more reactant to crack it and get another roll of 6-30 traces for your trouble. The argument is that there's no reason to do this, when you could speed up the process (enemy scaling slows down progress) by extracting and restarting the mission. In the old system, long void survival runs let you get the most out of a single key. The change proposed in devstream 82 brings endless up to the level of non-endless missions, but the reward does not increase along with the risk. I tend to agree with this line of reasoning. But I am glad that endless won't be inherently worse for Prime farming.

However, that assumption may be incorrect. DE's plans for traces in endless may be more elaborate. See my above post.

[artemisfortune]

54 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Not quite. There are a few threads on this topic already.

Basically, the assumption we're under is that endless missions will let you equip another relic each rotation, and you'll have to collect 10 more reactant to crack it and get another roll of 6-30 traces for your trouble. The argument is that there's no reason to do this, when you could speed up the process (enemy scaling slows down progress) by extracting and restarting the mission. In the old system, long void survival runs let you get the most out of a single key. The change proposed in devstream 82 brings endless up to the level of non-endless missions, but the reward does not increase along with the risk. I tend to agree with this line of reasoning. But I am glad that endless won't be inherently worse for Prime farming.

However, that assumption may be incorrect. DE's plans for traces in endless may be more elaborate. See my above post.

But it wasn't more efficient to stay longer. You were forced into 20 minute/wave battles to get the most out of your run, that was it. 20 minutes/waves is a long time. Now you're forced into 5 minute/wave battles with the chance to stay longer to prove yourself and bypass finding a new squad/loading screens. People arguing for endless missions said they wanted them to get prime parts and test out their gear, and now they're getting that with the added bonus of the boosted RNG.

The only thing I would ever want DE to add to this is maybe increasing the traces as you said, but that's it.

[RistN]

Ways to farm traces are with smeeta kavat or better to double it with resource booster or you can quadruple it using both.I don't see any problem here...

[KnightCole]

I see it as kinda pointless since, IDK why we would stay longer for the same chance and using our relic. 

If we got like an innate refinement of our relic, say, 1 grade up for the next relic or something, then sure.  But fighting harder mobs for the same chance....meh.

I still see no point in staying past however long is absolutely required.

[RistN]

When going higher lvl and time spent in mission meant better reward or some kind of benefits in Warframe?Never.So baby steps...This is actually a step forward to what we all want.

But I do agree with OP otherwise.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

30 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

It's also important to note that they're not fully against the idea of giving other incentives (such as free quality upgrades to your relics), but that they don't want the endless to just be the go-to relic farming meta all over again. This was also stated very clearly within the podcast. The system is still in its infancy and very, very subject to change.

Well, that's Rebecca's position anyway. She's basically the voice of the community to DE, and the voice of DE to the community. I wonder how much sway she has with the devs. Ultimately, I believe it's up to Scott and Steve. Or someone else whose name I don't know.

29 minutes ago, xRufus7x said:

Thing is reactant is not all that hard to farm and has a built in cap. People wanted endless missions back because they wanted the additional rewards the void provided in the form of prime parts and dukat fodder. Reactant in its current state won't fill that role. To each their own but I doubt people will push very far into these if that is the motivation.

By reactant, I assume you mean traces? It depends on whether endless provides more than just the 6-30 traces, and just how much of a difference there is from missions like exterminate. As things are now, if you have a Smeeta and can drop 200p on a booster, you're pulling an average of somewhere between 40-50 traces per fissure. I believe the highest possible payout, including a booster and two concurrent drop boosts from Smeeta, is 160 traces. If endless has a multiplier anywhere in that formula, even if it's only 25% or something, that can result in some big numbers.

It's important to note that it's not necessary for endless to have crazy insane rewards over non-endless. Even a small advantage is worthwhile in the long run................

Get it? ...GET IT? (I'm not sorry.)

21 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

But it wasn't more efficient to stay longer. You were forced into 20 minute/wave battles to get the most out of your run, that was it. 20 minutes/waves is a long time. Now you're forced into 5 minute/wave battles with the chance to stay longer to prove yourself and bypass finding a new squad/loading screens. People arguing for endless missions said they wanted them to get prime parts and test out their gear, and now they're getting that with the added bonus of the boosted RNG.

The only thing I would ever want DE to add to this is maybe increasing the traces as you said, but that's it.

As I said, the advantage of long runs was getting the most out of your keys. (Edit: Wait... I think I forgot to say that part in the earlier post... d'oh.) T3 survival, for instance, was somewhat scarce since Triton favored T2 and Heiracon favored T4. Then you had the issues with missions awarding the wrong keys. I remember Saryn's release. Three weeks of excavation, every T3 exterminate key I found--every single one!!--transformed into something else at extraction. Christ, that was frustrating.

I'm not praising the old system. Just stating the logic behind long runs. Personally, I hate long survival runs. I'll go to 20m once the changes take effect, sure, but I'm not going past that until they adjust enemy scaling. The game just gets dumb past a certain point.

Edited November 1, 2016 by (PS4)BlitzKeir

[Dr.Evergreen]

Give me more relics in every missions. like : Put T4 keys in Pluto Spy, and if I successfully hack all 3 nodes, reward guaranteed 1~3 relics set aside. (rewards will more likely to be 3 if undetected), and make all endless missions drop 1~3 relics instead of 1. make every 200 kill in exterminate missions have guaranteed a relic, each kill will 0.5% chance (for example killing 250 enemies will 1 relic and 25% chance of another relic)

[artemisfortune]

2 hours ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Well, that's Rebecca's position anyway. She's basically the voice of the community to DE, and the voice of DE to the community. I wonder how much sway she has with the devs. Ultimately, I believe it's up to Scott and Steve. Or someone else whose name I don't know.

By reactant, I assume you mean traces? It depends on whether endless provides more than just the 6-30 traces, and just how much of a difference there is from missions like exterminate. As things are now, if you have a Smeeta and can drop 200p on a booster, you're pulling an average of somewhere between 40-50 traces per fissure. I believe the highest possible payout, including a booster and two concurrent drop boosts from Smeeta, is 160 traces. If endless has a multiplier anywhere in that formula, even if it's only 25% or something, that can result in some big numbers.

It's important to note that it's not necessary for endless to have crazy insane rewards over non-endless. Even a small advantage is worthwhile in the long run................

Get it? ...GET IT? (I'm not sorry.)

As I said, the advantage of long runs was getting the most out of your keys. (Edit: Wait... I think I forgot to say that part in the earlier post... d'oh.) T3 survival, for instance, was somewhat scarce since Triton favored T2 and Heiracon favored T4. Then you had the issues with missions awarding the wrong keys. I remember Saryn's release. Three weeks of excavation, every T3 exterminate key I found--every single one!!--transformed into something else at extraction. Christ, that was frustrating.

I'm not praising the old system. Just stating the logic behind long runs. Personally, I hate long survival runs. I'll go to 20m once the changes take effect, sure, but I'm not going past that until they adjust enemy scaling. The game just gets dumb past a certain point.

I see what you're saying.

[zoobmer]

On 10/30/2016 at 4:56 PM, Chipputer said:

The point is that your suggestion would make endless missions the go-to for prime part farming again. This is the entire reason they decoupled rewards from the Void-- while you needed other keys, endless keys were the go-to.

The new system would make them more efficient, not directly better, as your suggestion would do. This needs to be kept in mind.

1

again, it would only stop giving you commons if you make it to wave/minute 100, which would be very difficult to do. in that sense, I think it's balenced.

22 hours ago, JalakBali said:

So, this way, endless missions could be used to re-roll relics more than once, as long as you can keep fighting.

 

genius! make it it's own post so it's more likely to get noticed. then we can let DE see them side by side and decide. I'll even vote for your idea if you make it a post, even though it's competing with mine, since the more people pitching in ideas the better.

[Chipputer]

1 hour ago, ZBanx said:

again, it would only stop giving you commons if you make it to wave/minute 100, which would be very difficult to do. in that sense, I think it's balenced.

That's not the point. Anything that makes it directly better shifts the meta back to exactly where it was before which defeats the entire purpose. It doesn't matter if you think it's balanced because some arbitrary math says it'll take x amount of waves to make one whole reward tier no longer even exist.

You're playing a game where people can solo 5 hours in T4 survival with basic gameplay exploits. You are suggesting a way to make one method of farming objectively better than other methods for no reason other than, "it's endless lol." That's not a good enough reason and it completely throws out the intention of the relic system.

[Angrados]

4 hours ago, JSharpie said:

I see what you're saying.

That was.... quite succinct. I'm a little surprised-- the majority of your post was just the quotation.

 

To weigh in, I think the new system is going to be interesting, and probably a step in the right direction. I don't know if that's going to bring back the old magic of the Endless Void, but it'll definitely be a step in the right direction.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

17 hours ago, (PS4)Tenchi145 said:

 

^THIS^

I was talking about base pay per hour or weekly salary, not overtime compensation.

[(PSN)auwsomestgamer]

8 hours ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

then use that reactant to open a relic in liset.

YES

[Everyone]

I haven't read through most of the comments, but thought I'd give my opinion on it anyhows, regardless if it's been brought up a dozen times.

 

The new relic system is without a doubt better than the old void key system, less grind, easier to hunt for specific parts, easier key/relic sharing, and all tilesets are used, rather than just the void, giving it more variety.

That said, the new system has deterred me from playing warframe as regularly.

I like shooting enemies. Like a lot a lot. I'd much rather do 3 hour survivals for everything, with hordes of enemies lining themselves up to get shot than doing any other mission for rewards. Most of the remaining stuff I have to get are the newer prime parts, but after every mission I check through my arsenal, tweak my appearance slightly, chat a bit, etc etc. This takes me out of shooting loads of enemies, and makes me wonder if I should be playing other games. In short, I don't like short missions.

Therefore, endless relic missions sound perfect to me, I'll be able to have my long missions while still farming for prime parts. I don't even mind if they have to be split into two parts: one endless mission for relics, and another to burn those relics up for prime parts. The only way I can see to improve the proposed mission is to allow us to refine relics as we go, using the traces we earn throughout the mission.

Lastly, I find that for most starchart missions now, I have to purposely limit myself, either by using underpowered weapons or interesting/useless mod setups (although I've grown quite fond of kraken and recoil-less gorgon wraith). Endless missions will give me a reason to use my min-maxed weapons other than to complete sorties.

[megastorm]

I don't think the sting is so bad if we tenno (it may not be you doing it but its definitely enough to make me not pug anymore for specific relic runs) would just stop lying to get over on people. I am sick of people lying about the keys/relics they have just to get in the group and don't have what I asked for. I am not asking you to play a certain frame. I am not telling you how to build your loadout. I just want you to have the relics so we can all benefit. 

To me, its more about the community then the devs. I don't mind doing a bit extra to get what I need for a run. I am just tired of the community using me or other squad members and thinks its just ok.

[Heniker]

The biggest loss that came with the relic system I believe, is that the social aspect of the game has been severely reduced. People just pop in with a particular relic, get what they need and bail. Ducat farming with pug matchmaking MIGHT be faster (I am no mathematician, someone else do the math lol), but it's the exact same thing: get in, pick your part, bail, rinse and repeat. You hardly ever interact with anyone, be it in a radshare, or a pug group.

In the old key system, ducat farming is significantly more... social? If that's the right word. There's no pug matchmaking, but you can easily join some random person hosting 10-20 keys in recruit chat, with or without your own keys, and just bond over an hour or two, or however long it takes to finish 10-20 sessions. I believe the old system also makes it a bit more forgiving for new players who do not have the capability to farm up high-tier keys. We could just invite new players to benefit from our keys and this lack of pressure to match keys/relics tend to also make them more chatty.

So, whilst the reward grind (not counting the grind to get relic / traces) might be significantly less now, it came at a huge cost of the social aspect of the game. I actually go over to the relays, or region chat when it's not over the top toxic, to satisfy my social needs now, if that says anything at all about the relic system's impact on the social elements of WF.

[TheSteelRat]

took me 30 minutes to form a group of four to do a Radiant relic share.  That was 30 minutes doing noting in the game except copy/pasting a message in recruiting chat.  In the end we didn't even get a rare.  So now I had to do 4-6 more fissure missions to get the 100 traces needed to make another radiant and 4-8 missions to get the same relic, before i could start the whole BORING process over again

If i could covert relics into traces, it would be better
If I could get more then one prime part/BP from a single relic it would be better.
If it was easier to find more people with the same radiant relic it would be better
If we could do Trace alerts that were better then a normal fissure mission it would be better

[kubbi]

I prever the old key system because you had a certain amount set of keys. With the relic system we're getting new relics with every new prime access. Next thing you know you have a ton of different relics from A to Z. Not a fan of clutter.

[EvilChaosKnight]

What a lot of people don't seem to realize that it's a lot easier to farm specific parts for the OLDER primes. Basically when you have stockpiles of relics from the conversion, farming for a specific part is tolerable. For the most part (damn you, Spira Pr. blade, took 30 relics to get a copy for my friend).

But the moment you hit the need to farm for a specific relic due to a new release, the whole "better and faster" system suddenly becomes "a bit more sluggish sidegrade" rather than anything. You might as well set up your Orbiter on Hieracon because you'll be basically living there in hopes to get that cursed Axi G1. Which will once again give you a forma or some ducats junk. Just like the old C-rotation on survivals! Which now takes longer to get to (esp. if you don't run with a 4 people crew) and doesn't reward you extra primes for getting there unless you burn extra relics.

And some IMO.
I honestly enjoy endless gameplay of fighting and surviving (esp. solo, esp. without cheese) way more than Sonic 3D I mean Warframe fissures gameplay. Oh and looking for caches on Sab was actually one of my favorite pass times due to a fine balance between challenge (not the enemies but careful exploration), fun and rewards. Now I can't have fun AND rewarding gameplay. It's either fun but kinda pointless (where the new endless will go also) or a boring definition of insanity but with shiny rewards (fissure caps). 

And now a cherry on the cake. Pretty often there's NO caps and exts of the relic tier you want. Have fun waiting or doing 10 min log MDs :P
Then again, nothing stops anyone from playing some other game in meanwhile of course. Except some players might forget to check back to Warframe. Now that would be bad for the game wouldn't it?

[PossiblyMG]

But what about normal endless?

I'm gonna give a quick example because I don't want to make a tl;dr and I probably won't be answering because I'm a lazy C***

Regardless

Say you're doing Hieracon, and you want endless to be rewarding. People will simply say "You'll get a higher chance to the rare reward" or "There should be a bonus for each rotation completed." There is some truth to both, but what if we combined them into what seems to me like a perfect idea?

At the beginning of the mission, the leader of the group chooses their preferred/most wanted reward out of each rotation. Then, as each rotation comes by, you will first have a normal chance to get the reward you wanted, however the more you continue the mission, the more chance to the preferred reward you get. 

Example: I want 400 Endo in A (25% chance), Neo S1 relics in B (7.14%), and Axi V3 in C (9.68%). Each rotation will increase my preferred reward by 50% of its original drop chance (+12.5%, +3.57%, and +4.84%) for each rotation completed.

If you're thinking "But what if I want more than 1 relic?" Maybe the system could be changed so that you can choose more than 1 reward, idk I'm too lazy to think of variations just go with the flow ok bye

[ashrah]

we need stable servers...

[Minion135]

If they did that, then it would be expected for us to be able to choose our preferred reward even in non-endless mission modes.

[Minion135]

Also, just doing the endless mode won't increase drop chance. The only way to change that is by upgrading the relics, and that works in all Fissure modes. If they add something like that to normal endless, without there being any sort of relic or anything attached, they'd have to add some way to do it in all other modes to make it fair and even.

[TheScytale]

Why though? If you compare post-SotR endless mission to pre-SotR ones, you'd see that they're much more rewarding now.

If you need an excuse/reason to play endless missions, it means you do not like the endless mode in the first place. Plain and simple.