Dev Stream 82: Endless Relic missions feedback

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

1 relic per mission

-or-

increasing drop rates per wave

-or-

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/711783-new-endless-missions/#comment-7953651

 

1) Increasing drop rates per (5 waves/5mins) - how is that different from free refinement? Doesn't refinement increases drop rate? And there has to be a cap to say "increase" for it to not be abuse.

2) As per your suggestion, using one relic to gain multiple rewards has what DE wanted to avoid/ steer away from. As for using one main relic and then using a "trash relic" to continue at getting main relic rewards, I will agree to it if the entire the drop table is diluted with the entire Tier drop table. One of the main reason we have different relics at a certain Tier is so that the drop table isn't diluted. How is the game suppose to create artificial "rarity" if everything is easily obtain? What's good for the players may not be good for the game and vice versa. I rather win the war than this battle.

[(PSN)LiamRising]

how about this depending on how the relic is refined determines how many rotations till its used up for example intact is 1 rotation, exceptional 2, flawless 3 and radiant 4 also giving you void traces between each rotation it makes the relic last longer depending on how much effort the player puts into refinement and it doesn't make endless the superior farming method.

[Insizer]

It would make sense if each break would increase the chances of the rare stuff increasing by 2.5% or so.

[Error989]

if that wont be the case and the drop chance wont increase is there even a point in going longer than 5 waves/min? btw dont forget that void survival is now at 0-5min as hard as it was at around 40min before

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 minute ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said:

1) Increasing drop rates per (5 waves/5mins) - how is that different from free refinement? Doesn't refinement increases drop rate? And there has to be a cap to say "increase" for it to not be abuse.

2) As per your suggestion, using one relic to gain multiple rewards has what DE wanted to avoid/ steer away from. As for using one main relic and then using a "trash relic" to continue at getting main relic rewards, I will agree to it if the entire the drop table is diluted with the entire Tier drop table. One of the main reason we have different relics at a certain Tier is so that the drop table isn't diluted. How is the game suppose to create artificial "rarity" if everything is easily obtain? What's good for the players may not be good for the game and vice versa. I rather win the war than this battle.

1. refinement stops at like 10%, there doesn't need to be a cap at all. Just set it to a 5% increase for every 5 waves past the first.
2. There is no reason for it to be diluted. The idea is more skill + more challenge = better, more-consistent rewards. That's the way it should be.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)LiamRising said:

how about this depending on how the relic is refined determines how many rotations till its used up for example intact is 1 rotation, exceptional 2, flawless 3 and radiant 4 also giving you void traces between each rotation it makes the relic last longer depending on how much effort the player puts into refinement and it doesn't make endless the superior farming method.

That's still better than what they mentioned on the stream, but if I see them dropping the drop rates of radiants a lot if they went that route.

[Chipputer]

28 minutes ago, (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan said:

However that's not how the community wants it. They want to spend one relic to get multiple rewards.

Why do people keep placing their opinion as "community opinion?"

I could care less about getting multiple rewards from my relics. Using multiple up in a single run that I can stay in as long as I want is perfectly fine with me, both from a gameplay standpoint and from a business standpoint, for DE.

Don't speak for me.

[Volinus7]

You used 1 Key in Endless. You can farm in buffet style as long as you can fight.

You used 1 relic in Endless. You get 1 reward.

In short : "If you can't give our buffet back, you have to make it 3 stars restaurant.

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

1. refinement stops at like 10%, there doesn't need to be a cap at all. Just set it to a 5% increase for every 5 waves past the first.

There need to be a cap or else I'll be setting up a tent in a corner (or sewer) and stay for 4h+ and come out a rich man. New meta... and not in the positive way.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

1. ...
2. There is no reason for it to be diluted. The idea is more skill + more challenge = better, more-consistent rewards. That's the way it should be.

I agree with wanting more skill + more challenge = better, more consistent rewards. That equation looks good on paper, but when it come down to looting, I can see the end results as set by Warframe precedents. i.e. Draco, Viver, E-Gate.

"Loot, faster loot, fastest loot, better loot, mo better loot, most zbest-est lootz"     >   wanting to play skillfully with challenging aspects.

It all come down to player choices and I will be at fault again for generalizing: Most players want loot over skill/challenge. If only we can have both.

[Chipputer]

1 minute ago, Volinus7 said:

You used 1 relic in Endless. You get 1 reward.

You get up to 4 rolls and your choice of those 4 rolls, instead of just one specific reward across the whole group.

It's really not the exact same. Don't pretend like it is.

[(PSN)Quo_Tee]

What DE fails to realise is that with the Old Endless void missions you could theoretically get infinitely many rewards as long as your team was well co-ordinated and prepared, all with just 1 key, this gave players an actual reason to keep on playing as this would increase the efficiency of their farming.

With this new proposed system you get 1 reward after 5 minutes of work for 1 relic, so yes you can still theoretically get infintely many rewards but you need infinitely as many relics to get them. It is still much more faster and efficient to just run capture or exterminate relic missions as these take less than 5 minutes to do, and you don't have that risk of failing the mission compared to surviving over 20 minutes against the likes of lvl 50 bombards.

Overall, I feel that this change DE will implement is a waste of time and resources, I predict that nobody will change the way they farm relic missions all because people have been given the option to play over 5 minutes in a relic survival.

[BansheePrime]

2 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

You get up to 4 rolls and your choice of those 4 rolls, instead of just one specific reward across the whole group.

It's really not the exact same. Don't pretend like it is.

Not to mention that one reward will be something useful.. and not.. an orokin cell.

[Doc-Orange]

Once there were meaningful endless game modes. This was kind of endgame, too. Then DE changed this. The result is this http://steamcharts.com/app/230410

Acctually DE is thinking that the player loss comes from the wait for TTW. It will be soon very clear that the loss of players comes from the loss of meaningful reasons to play for long time periods and test your Warframe in endless missions.

There will be a increase of players with the TTW and this will last only for a short time. After this - and not earlier - DE will focus on meaningful endgame.

 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)TheRainbowTurt1e said:

Overall, I feel that this change DE will implement is a waste of time and resources, I predict that nobody will change the way they farm relic missions all because people have been given the option to play over 5 minutes in a relic survival.

Agreed.

[Chipputer]

Just now, Doc-Orange said:

DE is thinking that the player loss comes from the wait for TTW.

They're correct.

This is a free2play multiplayer game. They have a regular ebb and flow of players between major content updates. I don't know why all of you people keep saying that the Void changes is what caused the drop in players.

The missions that you played are still there. People who actually enjoyed them, and not just filling their pockets with free loot, are still actively playing them.

[(PSN)maso_sage-mode]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)TheRainbowTurt1e said:

What DE fails to realise is that with the Old Endless void missions you could theoretically get infinitely many rewards as long as your team was well co-ordinated and prepared, all with just 1 key, this gave players an actual reason to keep on playing as this would increase the efficiency of their farming.

With this new proposed system you get 1 reward after 5 minutes of work for 1 relic, so yes you can still theoretically get infintely many rewards but you need infinitely as many relics to get them. It is still much more faster and efficient to just run capture or exterminate relic missions as these take less than 5 minutes to do, and you don't have that risk of failing the mission compared to surviving over 20 minutes against the likes of lvl 50 bombards.

Overall, I feel that this change DE will implement is a waste of time and resources, I predict that nobody will change the way they farm relic missions all because people have been given the option to play over 5 minutes in a relic survival.

call it grind, call it walls, call them grind walls ! besides irony, they just want us to consume all the keys and force us to farm keys like there is no tomorrow...i find it ridiculous that people with 5k hours of play still need to farm keys...this change is bad , they have to rework the entire void again because this one is really bad and not funny at all..its just time consuming 

[BansheePrime]

1 minute ago, Doc-Orange said:

Once there were meaningful endless game modes. This was kind of endgame, too. Then DE changed this. The result is this http://steamcharts.com/app/230410

Acctually DE is thinking that the player loss comes from the wait for TTW. It will be soon very clear that the loss of players comes from the loss of meaningful reasons to play for long time periods and test your Warframe in endless missions.

There will be a increase of players with the TTW and this will last only for a short time. After this - and not earlier - DE will focus on meaningful endgame.

 

You make it sound like the player base doesnt always drop right before an new update. Its nothing new. Just more people because the player base is larger.

[Kyronz]

1 hour ago, DesuTronic said:

On the devstream they showcased how we will be able to do endless missions and instead of leaving we can put in another relic and go for longer.

So unlike how it was previously where you got more rewards per key the longer you stayed. Now the only thing we get for staying longer is the luxury of not having to extract and start again.

... What?

Whats the point to it? We still get the same amount of rewards per relic regardless of how much time we stay in the mission. Or if this is about the challenge then the 4t void survival missions still exist. Is it all just so we don't have to extract and start a new mission?

Oh that is poorly thought out, I hope they change that.    It seems like they have chosen to completely miss the point of many of the complaints.

[Volinus7]

5 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

You get up to 4 rolls and your choice of those 4 rolls, instead of just one specific reward across the whole group.

It's really not the exact same. Don't pretend like it is.

Who pretend? Net output and chance are separated things.

[Imaru]

I don't think its a "versus" thing. I think both DE and the players want the same thing, but they want it in different ways.

 

DE wants endless missions to be worth doing, but they don't want you to be able to (theoretically) get everything from a single relic in a single run. In game this makes sense: the relic holds a single item (that for some reason can be replicated up to 4 times if all players want the same one) and if you want something else you need to use a different relic. 

(Generalization incoming, don't get offended if this isn't you.) The players on the other hand want things to be more or less handed to them without having to to too much work. The way things used to be was you could keep running the mission until you are dying more than killing, at which point you leave and hope you got the stuff you wanted. With the current system you don't have access to a Void Tower but rather a single item from it that you need to break open. This is far more limiting. Players, as a general rule, want to have things handed to them so they can use it rather than farm for it. In this way, the players want relics to hold a theoretically infinite number of things and pouring more reactant into them will make them magically materialize. 

[Doc-Orange]

 

Quote

They're correct.

This is a free2play multiplayer game. They have a regular ebb and flow of players between major content updates. I don't know why all of you people keep saying that the Void changes is what caused the drop in players.

The missions that you played are still there. People who actually enjoyed them, and not just filling their pockets with free loot, are still actively playing them.

My option comes from the talk with a good number of players which left in the last months. The absolute majority left because of the latest game changes, not because the wait. My bet is that they will try again with TTW, see that the new core mechanic is still there and leave after a short period of time.

In the past there was an small up and down between the updates but in general there was a constant positive trend. All the latest updates (Lunaro, Vacuum within, Index) did't stop this loss of players. TTW within is IIRC a cinamatic quest. Even when it takes 4 or 6 hours to finish - what should stop the loss of players in a long term??? This could be only done with meaningful endless missions.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Doc-Orange

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 minute ago, (PS4)maso_sage-mode said:

they just want us to consume all the keys and force us to farm keys like there is no tomorrow.

That's why I think the solution I suggested works. It marries what players want (being able to get better rewards in exchange for more skill/effort) with what DE wants (key/relic grinding).

Plus, it cleans up all those relics that we would never bother with other wise. And before someone says, "but muh ducats," I can get plenty of Ducat fodder just by running the relics that have the items I want. They give out bad rolls enough that they can fully support my ducat needs.

 

[DrakorLP]

Hey I am just watching the dev stream right now and saw the new endless system and I am kind of happy that you can now run endless without restart the mission, but I think its still not rewarding enough. You can all 5 waves put a new relict on, but where is the sense to stay longer and fight harder enemies? You could say for fun and I usuly like to fight through high lv enemies, but I would feel kind of stupid.

If I am on farm mode and I want quiq as possible good stuff for my relicts, why should I play then an endless mission and keep the run instead of playing maybe excavation and leave fast as possible and start a new run?

And if you run some SUV runs, I think it would destroy your killing flow, if you always have to mind about picking a new relict. If I play SUV my goal is too kill fast as possible every enemie I see and I realy wouldnt enjoye it, if I have to do a break all 5min.

How about you can pick a relict for like 3-4 rotations or you farming all the reactant and then in the end of the mission you use them to open your relicts?

All in all there should be a bonus to stay longer. Its cool to stay long, but if you get nice loot too, you fell a lot happier. Like if you fighting a hard boss and getting the legendary weopons.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said:

There need to be a cap or else I'll be setting up a tent in a corner (or sewer) and stay for 4h+ and come out a rich man. New meta... and not in the positive way.

If you have the skill and time to do it then why not? The only thing they are going to do is make more plat sales.

"There will always be a loot cave."

[Trichouette]

5 minutes ago, DrakorLP said:

where is the sense to stay longer and fight harder enemies?

This I hope

2 hours ago, AM-Bunny said:

 

• Void Traces earned will increase as you push further in endless missions