Dev Stream 82: Endless Relic missions feedback

[Latiac]

It's a start, but it's no where NEAR what we had before and what the large majority of us miss. Why don't they just add the Relics similar to what we had with the void keys instead of selecting a new one every 5 minutes. That seems pretty awful in my opinion.

[Chipputer]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

I played Warframe 2 years straight without playing any other games. I've clocked 3800 hrs.

Not once does your post consider the possibility that you've simply burnt yourself out on the game.

[Latiac]

DE should keep the system similar to how void keys worked. Relics are great in choosing what YOU want, but it should still follow the void key formula in my opinion. 1 relic and multiple rewards, people choose from different rewards every 5 waves for example. Now THAT would be ideal.

[(PSN)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt]

Just now, Chipputer said:

Not once does your post consider the possibility that you've simply burnt yourself out on the game.

I have not burnt myself out. I dislike the direction that DE took.

[Monsterwithin]

Do not like their idea, it's literally the same thing.

[DrBorris]

So...why exactly shouldn't I just keep playing 5 min survivals over and over?

 

It needs increased Trace drop at a minimum but a drop chance multiplier (higher chance to get rare loot) for every rotation, as said in the OP, is probably the only way it will become "worth" the increased difficulty.

 

Multiple rewards per relic would be OP, the Prime grind is NOT supposed to be using relics, but rather gaining relics. Multiple drops per relic would destroy this concept (which is much better as it encourages playing more game modes/maps).

 

10 minutes ago, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

I have not burnt myself out. I dislike the direction that DE took.

I like the direction so... let's agree to disagree.

Edited October 29, 2016 by DrBorris

[Lokidus_Prime]

I don't get why they can't just make it so that everyone who brings a relic, gets all of the rewards that drop... Like if a full squad runs with everyone bringing a relic, everyone walks away with 4 drops each.  This makes it more worth-while to run with a full squad as you get more bang for yer buck.  If you really care about who brings what kind of relic, people are just going to do what they do anyway and form selective squads to specifically run those relics.  Don't bring a relic? you don't get anything, simple as that.

As it is ducat prices are a little ridiculous imo, with how little this relic system rewards you. Rng is still Rng, and now we're stuck with just one drop per run.  I also personally hate having to go run around searching for the reactant, which depending on the squad and mission type ends up just taking longer than it should for everyone to get 10 reactant, which just overall interrupts the flow of gameplay.  Not to mention the broken markers for them that disappear when you try to look at them (at least, it was still broken last i did void runs).  Overall this 'new' void system does not feel rewarding enough to be worth my time at the moment.

Now depending on what happens with the endless relic missions, that may or may not change.  I personally think it's a horrible idea to have to use an additional relic to stay another rotation for the same reasons that many people have already stated : why stay and spend a relic, when i can just restart and do the same thing but easier.  I personally could care less about more void traces dropping - i just kinda want it to be similar to the old void endless missions : the longer you stay, the more you get. Even if its not quite like that, I just want them to make relic missions feel worthwhile again. On a similar note, it'd be nice if they also did something a little more with the caches in relic missions that happen to be sabotages too...

[(PSN)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt]

6 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

So...why exactly shouldn't I just keep playing 5 min survivals over and over?

 

It needs increased Trace drop at a minimum but a drop chance multiplier (higher chance to get rare loot) for every rotation, as said in the OP, is probably the only way it will become "worth" the increased difficulty.

 

Multiple rewards per relic would be OP, the Prime grind is NOT supposed to be using relics, but rather gaining relics. Multiple drops per relic would destroy this concept (which is much better as it encourages playing more game modes/maps).

 

I like the direction so... let's agree to disagree.

I enjoyed the grind. I enjoyed 2 hrs survivals. I enjoyed getting rewarded for putting in the work, and I mean hardcore grinding. I enjoyed putting 6 formas on a crap weapon like the  Grakata and taking it to the Void and seeing how long I could last. I probably have (and I am just winging it) over 200 weapons pro built and they pretty much don't mean anything anymore besides sorties. I enjoyed long strategic missions with my clan mates. I enjoyed competing for leader board statuses. I enjoyed clan rivalries. I enjoyed Void capture speed runs with my volt while farming formas and other things. I enjoyed 40-60 minute T4 defenses. I enjoyed Solar rails, again the clan rivalry thing. I enjoyed coptering vs parkour 2.0. I enjoyed the old archwing mechanics. I mean the list goes on but I would be going on forever. I do not enjoy running a void fissure just to get 1 part, rinsing and repeating. Sure it something quick to do, but there is no challenge to it. Challenges are fun to me and this new relic system does not fill that. Since SOTR was released my clan stopped playing a whole lot less. I honestly do not see the point in clans anymore other than having a dojo. I am out.

[Firetempest]

32 minutes ago, Latiac said:

DE should keep the system similar to how void keys worked. Relics are great in choosing what YOU want, but it should still follow the void key formula in my opinion. 1 relic and multiple rewards, people choose from different rewards every 5 waves for example. Now THAT would be ideal.

Of course it would be ideal, because you're back to getting more for less. Its been decided by DE that 8+ rewards per 4 players for a single key was too much.

Although the current implementation is the polar opposite.

A compromise would be the refinement of a relic to dictate how many waves you get to run, yet using the refinement charge in endless wave mode wont adjust drop rates.

Exceptional lets you run one extra set of waves or 10min, Flawless for 4 sets of waves or 20min, Radiant for 6 sets of waves or 30m.

It turns it into a count down to add risk for reward. So if you choose a radiant, you need to survive for the 30m or get nothing. then you get 6 RNG items from that relic plus the chance at Endo, face it, added trash should be expected.

[Marvelous_A]

Can't even classified it as a "change" in my opinion because that's exactly how the system is doing right now, I don't see any real change.

[DrBorris]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

I enjoyed the grind. I enjoyed 2 hrs survivals. I enjoyed getting rewarded for putting in the work, and I mean hardcore grinding. I enjoyed putting 6 formas on a crap weapon like the  Grakata and taking it to the Void and seeing how long I could last. I probably have (and I am just winging it) over 200 weapons pro built and they pretty much don't mean anything anymore besides sorties. I enjoyed long strategic missions with my clan mates. I enjoyed competing for leader board statuses. I enjoyed clan rivalries. I enjoyed Void capture speed runs with my volt while farming formas and other things. I enjoyed 40-60 minute T4 defenses. I enjoyed Solar rails, again the clan rivalry thing. I enjoyed coptering vs parkour 2.0. I enjoyed the old archwing mechanics. I mean the list goes on but I would be going on forever. I do not enjoy running a void fissure just to get 1 part, rinsing and repeating. Sure it something quick to do, but there is no challenge to it. Challenges are fun to me and this new relic system does not fill that. Since SOTR was released my clan stopped playing a whole lot less. I honestly do not see the point in clans anymore other than having a dojo. I am out.

I hated the Void tile set. I enjoy two hour survivals and still play extended survivals for... dare I say... fun. Okay, I was going to mirror your post, but now I gotta rant on that point.

 

Buddy... extended missions are just as viable now as they were then... Seriously, you are obviously a veteran, did you ever have a shortage of endless keys? Congratulations, you put in a ton of effort to go two hours in a survival (a point long past the point of balance mind you) and I was just as able to run 20 min missions over and over again FOR THE EXACT SAME REWARD. The only thing that really made endless missions more "efficient" was that you would not have to go through hellish recruiting chat for every rotation. And this point is mute now as relic farming (the main point of the prime grind) is doable in public. Do you want to go run an endless mission, go run it. you are going to be getting rewards the whole time, it is not like stuff stops dropping after 20 min. It is literally exactly as it is now, except that there is a point of separation between endless and rewards. Before you would get rewards directly from your endless, instant gratification. Now you have to get your relics then run the relic, delayed gratification. And before you say that this is longer... ha, the community has long debunked that the new prime grind is longer, as it has now easier than ever to get prime stuff.

 

The "challenge" is not breaking the relics, it is getting the relics. Which is best done in, you guessed it, endless. Void keys are NOT relics, they are completely different.

 

Oh, and leaderboards are still there, Dark Sectors were broken and needed to be removed. I do agree that something like them NEEDS to come back as PvP is the only way for an infinite gameplay loop (not PvP as in conclave, PvP can be as simple as leaderboards). Not going there with coptering... Let's not talk about Archwing, it is in a very awkward place because DE wants it to be something, the community refuses to accept it, there may have been some bad decisions with the latest rework and... sigh... I really want Archwing to be a thing but that is for another topic.

 

You know why I think players have been unhappy? Horrible communication. First and most importantly is that TWW has overshadowed that we have basically already gotten U19 and U19.5, making TWW basically U20. But then there was the whole Relic thing where for the longest time the community thought DE nerfed the prime grind. Of course this is also related to people complaining about "end-game" being removed while there never was an end-game and we have just as much now as we did then. The Vacuum Within was a mistake that was quickly fixed, but it still put a sour taste in people's mouth. I could keep going, but this is getting long.

 

What I got from what you said is you want two things, endurance missions to be a thing and a competiveness to Warframe. I wholeheartedly agree that those two things are two of the biggest things holding Warframe down. However, endurance is just as viable now as it was then and apparently competiveness is back on the table as clans are supposedly a focus of the next major update. If you are burnt out, good god please leave. The worst thing to do when you get burnt out is keep playing, go find some other games and keep an eye on Warframe's development. If DE keeps to their words and gets working on a lot of the things they have slated for "post-TWW" you biggest complaints may be fixed. Till then though, you obviously aren't having fun, so leave. As soon as a game stops being fun you should stop playing.

[kaliazane]

It will be dead system.

At best, these parties that farm for 1 specific part with 4 radiant relics might go to 10 min if it wont drop at 5. Even that will be rare since chance 4 ppl will have 2 of same rad each is low. It fixes nothing and does literally nothing to endless mission on star chart.

[Chrif1992]

Start missions versing level 5-10 mission, open relic, stay in verse lvl 20-25, open relic, stay in verse lvl 55-60, open relic, stay verse lvl 100-105, open relic. At least before we got more out of a key if we stayed in.

A suggestion would be start with a radiant and then down grade it every time it opens until it becomes intact and then breaks. That way it encourages people to stay in to wave 20 or whatever but doesn't increase the rng for a rare by too much, shouldn't get much higher than 15%.

I just run exterminates because they are super fast but this would get me to do survival and defense because relic farming is a pain.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Chrif1992

[Doc-Orange]

1 hour ago, Chipputer said:

Not once does your post consider the possibility that you've simply burnt yourself out on the game.

When he not mentioned it, it won't be there. He knows himself best. Most of my discussion partners left because of game design decisions - not burn out.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

There is no point as presented.

[Awazx]

6 hours ago, Cyborg-Rox said:

Yeah, I don't get this either. There's no point in doing this as it practically mimics restarting the mission, minus the stronger enemies and increased Void Traces. I'd understand if the chance for rarer items was gradually increased for each rotation, but now there doesn't seem to be anything at all to attract this way of doing Fissures.

This.

 

Edited October 29, 2016 by Awazx

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

3 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Not even close to being worth it. It would still be more efficient to extract at the soonest point and just redo the mission.

News Flash: That's why it's a placeholder number...

Edited October 29, 2016 by (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan

[Trittium00]

Ok so I've been reading through the various threads on the new endless mission plan reveal and to me it seems there is a particular divide that sticks out. The new system showed by DE indicates that they feel we wanted to make endless missions relevant to the process of opening relics.

However, I don't think that this is the case of what the player base wanted at all. I believe that when many people were making the point that endless missions should be made relevant again by rewarding the time and increasing challenge of those mission types, this was related to the ACQUISITION of relics. This distinction is vitally important.

Under the current system on any defence, survival or excavation there is absolutely no point in staying beyond a full rotation. Enemies get harder, take longer to kill, and yet the rewards get reset back to the exact same rotation A you got when you first started. So you may as well just leave, pocket a credit bonus and make life easier for yourself by resetting it. Under the new relic system, the grind in the void got replaced with the grind to obtain relics - and that is totally ok.

The 'solution' that DE presents here doesn't address the issue of obtaining relics. It only seems to address the opening of the relics. But I ask this question: when was opening the relics really an issue? The act of opening relics in something like a fissure capture or exterminate mission is practically trivial, there is no challenge to it and it's a race to see who can collect 10 reactant and bullet jump to the finish line the fastest. Then if you want to, repeat the mission again and be done in another 3-4 minutes. That's not where people feel the 'grind' is unrewarding. It doesn't challenge players, it doesn't test their gear or their teamwork.

Where people feel that the grind is not rewarding is in endless missions for the act of obtaining relics and the proposed changes to the new endless missions do absolutely nothing to address this criticism. Rewards would still reset after the first full rotation, and you're now fighting enemies that take way longer to kill and do way more damage with no additional reward for this extra challenge. Again, quicker to extract and run the mission again.

What players want is a reason to stay beyond one full rotation in an endless mission! They want a reason to feel challenged, to work together, to feel like there was a point to spending all that forma and time into maxing their gear as good as it can be. I believe what people wanted is scaling rewards in obtaining the relics in endless type missions. Maybe have it so that the second time you get to rotation B/C, you get a 25% chance to get a second relic. Then the third time you get to rotation B/C, you get a 50% chance of a second relic. That's just an idea off the top of my head, but it just needs to be something that scales to the amount of time/effort that is required by the mission.

The proposed new system unfortunately doesn't make endless rewards more rewarding at all, it just gives you a quicker way to burn through the relics that you farmed elsewhere. But let's be honest, it's still probably quicker to open your relics by blitzing through a capture or exterminate mission with your AoE weapon of choice and repeat over and over, than it would be to repeatedly run 5 waves of defence with increasingly spongier enemies.

I'll leave with a hypothetical. Let's say you wanted to open 10 Axi relics. What would be quicker: to run 10 capture or exterminate missions one after the other or to run 50 waves of defence with enemies that will probably wind up at around level 80-90? I know which one I'd prefer.

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

Well, we have some time to use new system of prime drop. And now we have some news about endless mission back.

0. I wanna exuse for my English, its bad. 

First of all, i wanna mention what we actually already got.

1. Prime drops became less random. Tracers is a good way to normalise your farm. You don't need much new relic, you simply get 5 for price of 1. You can farm tracers while you hunting for a common drops. There is no more diff between T4D and T3Capture drop. Actually, there is no diif between T4D and T1D same time =)

2. All system became more fair. No more keyshare cheating (yes, you ask for this!). You can't leach (I don't say "good", i say "fair").

Fissure's and new relics droptables are now simple. After you do one, you do them all.

3. Another thing is ducats. They starts as a idea of use unusing stuff and now we are farm em. This is only a question of DE decision, how much ducats we can get in time. All system is now clear and simple. Maybe we will get some tweaks, maybe not, but it is boring question only of value and price. Anyway, system as is only better now. We dont get useless orokin sells, unwanted cores and have no forma problem (only for solo players a bit, but anyway there is a keys with no forma).

4. Relics. This is one bad apple spoils the bunch. We can't farm relics in a new PA and all we have became a little bit less usefull. Actually, i like this. This is fair, and i'm don't regret about this. Anyway, if you disagree, you should know, you will get your new sheeny prime just after that time DE want. Atleast we can store some tracers now.

So, what is a problem? In terms of reward all good. But nobody will post if all is good, right?

Today i wanna talk about                                   ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why we are missing old good Void?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New system is deadly tedios. I just meet a man, who says there 3 grindwalls, or after he says RNG walls, and after i mention to em all this i already listed, he just can't agree with me. But actually we now know, we farm new PA faster, prime parts have now less value in plat and there is no extremely rare parts. Why he stay in his words so hard? 

Becouse all we have now is a three simple steps -- farm relic, farm tracers (on common-parts-runs), farm fissure. And all of them make us feels bad.

1. Relics. As i sayd, this is not a big problem that we are need some new every Prime Acces. What is bad, now we have complete trash at this stage. I mean Void Keys, even if we don't need them right now was something. Now we have litterally rubbish in 4 of 6 cases. If DE read this, i talk about feelings. I know you always can cheat me, and i will have 30 exterminate and 1 Mobile Defence, but i never know it. I always think i get something i can use.

2. Tracers. Yes, it a good thing... in theory. I think this a brillian solution and not even mention as evil by DE. But it is. This is just one step to form party. This is feels mondatory. This is funny mindcatch. Keyshare in hivemind of comunity was totaly optional. This was risky, not providing by DE and in the end we feel like we get some additional prize just by myself. Now we have a way, simple way to do a SUPER-KEY, right? No, DE. We have bad default relic and a oblivios was to do it better. This is like r0 mod vs r10 mod. Yes, you can use r0-r9, but nobody will even mention this posibility in his builds. And with relics same thing. Everybody will use only maxed. See the catch? Your generous gift became another brick in the wall.

3. Next step is fissure. And again, there is no more endless (litterally) runs for a Ash prime BP or anything else. There is all fast mission, we can even just only wait for a capture, if exterminate of sapotage feels not fast enouth. But where is no choise. I mean, i love every mission, but with different love.

• This was fun to take Volt and do as much capture in hour as you can. Or simply do a small race with teammates.
• This was fun to change this to exterminate and show some damage.
• It was good to think you are cheating the system and farm ducats at interception.
• This was litterally thing what catch me in Warframe -- do defense faster and was reason to test new frames, form my weapon, create tactics.
• I love to hunt for a cashes at sabotage. This is so cool, to compete with a killer, who will do his mission first.
• I even love the flow of survival. It's so relaxing just to cut everything in your way untill you litterally can't breathe.

And i was able actually choose, what im going to do. Yes, droptables still same, but atleast i feel like i go into survive in the moment i want to. Somebody like to run fast keys first and maybe even trade for another parts, somebody choose do long runs in survival or defense.

Now i lost everything. Literally, there is no fun at all. Only exterminate power, this is only thing you leave me. Not a big deal, you know.

4.

Spoiler

This is not a "grindwall", and a bit brake my narration, but just for a compete list. In old Void i can share my key, not rare for me, but still good, and don't lose anything. Just take key, invite anybody and do run. Simple as that. Or go to Hieracon and farm some cores and keys, even if i don't need em right now, but i always have this option for that actually i gonna do in game.

 

 

And now we here. At the day DE announce (or at least mention) swichback endless Void fissure.

This is why im actually start this post. One thing i want to say... We can't back anything we lost if we just have this "one mission, use relic at every wave".

• There is no "cheating" at interception. By themself interseption just a worst mission in game.
• There is no flow and immersion in process in survival, couse we have this "put another coin" thing.
• There is no sence to do long defence. Yeah, there already was not much, but i see many people who have same fun as me. Just stay as long as you can.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wait, but DE already think about it! They sayd we will get more tracers by doing long runs. Yes, soudns good, just like tracers by themself, but...  What we actually will get it just another catch. Step 2 -- farm tracers just became even more oblivios. Farm tracers in a best mission to farm tracers. Yes, it is sounds not so bad, just like all thing we have now separately, but this is not a solution of anything.

TL;DR Yes, this is all i want so say: Endless fissure will do nothing. Maybe just another bring in the wall of why people think new system is tedious.

P.S. Bad thing -- i have no solution. I see why DE do what they do. There are real questions they looking for answers. But game it is not just only time we spend to farm something, or mission objective. I love old Void, but don't know how we can get it back from a point we are now.

 

[Trittium00]

Oh and just after finishing my post above, came across this video breakdown by Brozime and it captures many of my thoughts in easy to digest video form. He makes some great observations between the 1:30 and 5:30 mark.

He makes the point of it not being any faster than running repeated capture or exterminates. But he also raises another incredibly good point: the possibility of griefing. What if a group organises to go for 4 radiants in a row. A player can load up a radiant to start with and everyone checks it before starting. Ok we're all cool. After the opening the first relic and selecting number two, said player now picks some random intact. The question is, what can the other 3 players do about it? The griefer has already chosen to stay in the mission and the other three can't kick him out. So they are then forced to abort the mission if they want the next relic opening to be fair, so that unscrupulous players can't leech.

[War-.]

Totally agree.
I hope for something better, not the same thing as before. it will be the same survival, as before in old void, but 1 relic to spend for every 5 minutes.

Your point is right man. Survival should be more fun than they are now. A true challenge indeed, instead of afk all the mission..

[IggySnow]

it makes 0 sense to just let us pick another relic after 5 min/ waves. I can do that already by getting my reward and playing the same mission again. And that way I don't have to fight harder enemies ether.

Why not make it so that at the end of the round if everyone gets crap picks you can stay and re-roll the relic rewards? Like maybe you get a common reward from a radiant relic, so you chose to stay for another round to get another chance at the rare you want.

at least that way there's actually a reason for staying longer.

[ded9501]

couse then the meaning of relics gets destroyed, the reson why when they open they wont rerol is that every relic got its revard preset b4 opening.

know that this isnt the case but adds to the reality of warframe

 

[BansheePrime]

More void traces every 5 waves is reason enough for me. Besides, stuff really isn't that uncommon with relics that you should be able to get multiple rewards from one relic. Not to mention everyone will just be playing endless all day and suddenly every game mode that isn't endless will disappear again.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2 minutes ago, maj.death said:

More void traces every 5 waves is reason enough for me.

That's not going to be enough for most people since you can already farm infinite void traces.

Getting multiple rewards in exchange for more challenging enemies is the entire point of endless missions. Endless missions are as close as we have to a proper emdgame, so people playing them all day is to be expected and promoted.