Dev Stream 82: Endless Relic missions feedback

[BansheePrime]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

That's not going to be enough for most people since you can already farm infinite void traces.

Getting multiple rewards in exchange for more challenging enemies is the entire point of endless missions. Endless missions are as close as we have to a proper emdgame, so people playing them all day is to be expected and promoted.

Does console still have the old fissure system then? New one will not let you get anymore then 30 void per run.

[R34LM]

Technically this really isn't any different from the previous system when there was keys. Mostly everything good was stuck on endless, so we'd be trying to go wave after wave for things anyway. The only changes are you have more control over specific parts limited to tier.

But hey, do an hour survival and get a guaranteed prime stuff every five minutes plus extra credits and loot, it's great for getting endo and ducats. 

It isn't fast like bum rushing captures like EVERYONE does, but fast isn't the only option. Really, the main argument against the change is "it'd be faster to just do non-endless", and if you prefer fast then yeah you have a point; however, if you are like me, you couldn't give a crap about mission speed.

Edited October 29, 2016 by R34LM

[Xekrin]

26 minutes ago, HerpDerpy said:

Why not make it so that at the end of the round if everyone gets crap picks you can stay and re-roll the relic rewards?

Although an interesting idea it would basically make non-endless fissure mission obsolete no?  Well, not obsolete, captures and such would still be good for trace farming, I suppose..  People would demand there always be an endless on each tier and while that also isn't a terrible idea I just don't think its the direction they want to go.

I can't really say how this new system will work out, many already dislike it by description alone.  We'll see how it goes.

[IggySnow]

3 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

Although an interesting idea it would basically make non-endless fissure mission obsolete no?  Well, not obsolete, captures and such would still be good for trace farming, I suppose..  People would demand there always be an endless on each tier and while that also isn't a terrible idea I just don't think its the direction they want to go.

I can't really say how this new system will work out, many already dislike it by description alone.  We'll see how it goes.

they could make the difficulty ramp up faster when doing relic runs. and make it so if you lose a mission you lose the relic too (if you lose after the first round) that way there is risk behind staying.

[low1991]

How about, every 5 wave/ 5mins, allows the player to re-roll their relic reward on extraction?

Of cuz, give us more time, choosing.

[That1Cactus]

Think of relics like eggs.

You crack one open you get the yolk inside. You can't crack the same egg again and expect a different yolk because you already cracked that same egg. So you have to get another egg in order to get another yolk.

That's basically what the new endless relic system works, and considering how many old players have been wanting the ability to get more rewards from endless relic missions AND staying in missions for more than 5 minutes, I'd say this is a good route.

[IggySnow]

3 minutes ago, That1Cactus said:

Think of relics like eggs.

You crack one open you get the yolk inside. You can't crack the same egg again and expect a different yolk because you already cracked that same egg. So you have to get another egg in order to get another yolk.

That's basically what the new endless relic system works, and considering how many old players have been wanting the ability to get more rewards from endless relic missions AND staying in missions for more than 5 minutes, I'd say this is a good route.

ya but there is very little incentive to stay in the mission. you don't get anything extra for staying, say for a little more traces. and you still get more rewards faster if you just run a capture over and over.

[That1Cactus]

Just now, HerpDerpy said:

ya but there is very little incentive to stay in the mission. you don't get anything extra for staying, say for a little more traces. and you still get more rewards faster if you just run a capture over and over.

That is true, but there are many (including myself) that are pretty tired of going through loading screens constantly after completing a mission for 1 reward. Now even after the endless fissure addition comes there's still going to be those 1 mission speed runs, but a lot of players have been wanting to keep playing endless missions like Survival and Excavation to keep getting more rewards like the old void. Plus not only do you get the rewards from the relics but you also get the rewards from the mission itself which they have showed in the Devstream.

But yeah if anything it's mostly how players like to farm, this is just one of those additions that don't really do anything negative other than letting endless runners get more loot for there grind.

[ashrah]

even with this canges no any reson to play over 5 waves really...

[IggySnow]

14 minutes ago, That1Cactus said:

That is true, but there are many (including myself) that are pretty tired of going through loading screens constantly after completing a mission for 1 reward. Now even after the endless fissure addition comes there's still going to be those 1 mission speed runs, but a lot of players have been wanting to keep playing endless missions like Survival and Excavation to keep getting more rewards like the old void. Plus not only do you get the rewards from the relics but you also get the rewards from the mission itself which they have showed in the Devstream.

But yeah if anything it's mostly how players like to farm, this is just one of those additions that don't really do anything negative other than letting endless runners get more loot for there grind.

I also want to get back to the endless missions we had before, but I want there to be a reason for it.

[WhyNotBro]

Frustrating decision, indeed :D
Btw, imagine how hard will be to find a team for a really long def / surv? :D To be satisfied all members should have the same amount of relics, which is not possible in region chat.

[hukurokuju5]

IF  endless gives

- aloooot of void traces

- increased rare rates at 20

then it could be worth it.

 

the main problems I can see so far are:

1)  the "next wave in 10 seconds, select additional relic" selection screen doesn't allow for much time to communicate relic usage between teammates. this can lead to miscommunication, doubling up of radiants.  

2) what happens when teammates leave you?  going on to wave 20 solo when your friends drop out after 15?  they keep rewards, and you fail mission?  too much troll potential?

 

it just seems safer to do short, single relic runs....

[hukurokuju5]

Just now, hukurokuju5 said:

IF  endless gives

- aloooot of void traces

- increased rare rates at higher waves

then it could be worth it.

 

the main problems I can see so far are:

1)  the "next wave in 10 seconds, select additional relic" selection screen doesn't allow for much time to communicate relic usage between teammates. this can lead to miscommunication, doubling up of radiants.  

2) what happens when teammates leave you?  going on to wave 20 solo when your friends drop out after 15?  they keep rewards, and you fail mission?  too much troll potential?

 

it just seems safer to do short, single relic runs....

 

[Zanchak]

5 hours ago, Firetempest said:

Of course it would be ideal, because you're back to getting more for less. Its been decided by DE that 8+ rewards per 4 players for a single key was too much.

Although the current implementation is the polar opposite.

A compromise would be the refinement of a relic to dictate how many waves you get to run, yet using the refinement charge in endless wave mode wont adjust drop rates.

Exceptional lets you run one extra set of waves or 10min, Flawless for 4 sets of waves or 20min, Radiant for 6 sets of waves or 30m.

It turns it into a count down to add risk for reward. So if you choose a radiant, you need to survive for the 30m or get nothing. then you get 6 RNG items from that relic plus the chance at Endo, face it, added trash should be expected.

This is a compromise that makes more sense than a relic every 5 waves and gives incentive to use traces for people like me whose rng feeds them trash everytime regardless of refinement. At the very least you'd get "something" for bothering to refine it.

[Navarc]

2 hours ago, HerpDerpy said:

it makes 0 sense to just let us pick another relic after 5 min/ waves. I can do that already by getting my reward and playing the same mission again. And that way I don't have to fight harder enemies ether.

Why not make it so that at the end of the round if everyone gets crap picks you can stay and re-roll the relic rewards? Like maybe you get a common reward from a radiant relic, so you chose to stay for another round to get another chance at the rare you want.

at least that way there's actually a reason for staying longer.

People were complaining about how they could get 8 rewards from 1 key for 40 minutes/waves. 4 rewards from 1 relics for 20 minutes/wave in the past and the relic system consumes too many rare relics with no reward or retries.
So DE solved it by implementing a system where you STILL consume 1 relic per reward.
I personally would like a system where the relic is re-rolled every 5 minutes because that could in theory make up for the huge loss in keys we're having now.

Now, I myself don't really see how it solves that issue but I'll just trust it does.

[Stuffed_Dodo]

10 hours ago, JMP3 said:

To at least bring the new system back to the same place as the old?  I agree with you that there should be greater rewards for staying longer, but I'm just happy that I can get multiple prime parts per mission again.

How is this different from finishing one Relic mission and then starting it again? Am I missing something? All it saves then is loading out to your ship and loading back in?

[Vicious_Vipa]

there is just no point in staying while the risk gets higher.

Please (slightly) increase our chances for better parts - as reward for staying longer and taking a higher risk and effort !

[Radagosh]

9 hours ago, (XB1)Englands Own said:

A reason to go longer hmm, maybe the player wants to be challenged with his/her multiple formaed weapons/warframes. There Is absolutely no point one shotting everything, where Is the fun or challenge In that?. Other  than speed running fissure missions, why would you not want to challenge yourself?.It gets boring pretty quick If you don't challenge yourself.I don't  know why would you just want to breeze through a mission all the time?, where's the fun In that?

Everytime the same argument...

Let's say there is a new prime frame coming out, let's also say you have enough relics would you a) go for 40 waves of defense to farm his 1 part or do b) 8x ext runs - in the time you take to do 40 waves id probably have finished 20+ exts.

Now my old post was before they announced they give more traces for staying longer, that's nice but again I think i might get more traces and parts from 20+exts than from 40 waves def.

Some players suggested that each relic gives 2 drops every 5minutes. I think this is a very nice approach, so we get what we want which is multiple items from 1 relic and DE still gets their not 10+ items from 1 relic.

Also an important question can we refine the relics ingame? This would be awesome for the "endless" style of missions. We could use the traces we just farmed to refine the relics we use to farm the stuff we need w/o leaving the mission early.

[kapn655321]

10 hours ago, (PS4)HepcatQ said:

Just an idea: it would be interesting to see relics automatically get some refinement as the mission level increases.

Or at least be able to refine mid-mission!

THIS

Edited October 29, 2016 by kapn655321

[Xzorn]

I've noticed a flaw with the upcoming Endless mission changes.

As someone who still goes to lvl 300 solo; I'm not here to complain about specific rewards. I'm talking about the fundamental concept and mechanics involved.

Since we have a Void Traces cap and the results for a mission are not gained until said mission is complete. There is inevitably a moment where you are compelled to leave either because you've run out of upgraded Relics or you've hit the Traces cap and not because you need to from any play perspective.

What we're getting is better than what we have now but there comes a point when it's no different, due to the mechanics involved.  If I were to get my buddies to play again and we go to lvl 1,725 Defense like back in the day, it seems likely that half of that mission would result in the same situation we have now due to the Void Traces cap and the Mission reward system.

 

The only way around this situation that I've seen is by updating results of each rotation in a temporary pool which players can actively use but can still be lost on mission failure. Any Relics, Traces and items used outside that pool will also be lost and of course allowing the player to upgrade relics within the mission while having Eximus units drop Relics ties the whole thing together to be truly Endless.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

3 hours ago, maj.death said:

Does console still have the old fissure system then? New one will not let you get anymore then 30 void per run.

I just meant you can run the missions as often as you want, even without a relic, to get traces.

[kapn655321]

Here's how I see this making sense..
Say you have a good party, but 1 member gets what they need at the 5 wave mark.

Allowing them to switch to a new relic can allow them to continue with the group without having to waste their time or leave the group.

[schilds]

Let's say current void trace farming averages around 5 traces per minute. Let's say with the changes, staying in as long as possible asymptotically approaches around 10 traces per minute. Leaving aside the exact numbers, doesn't something like that seem alright? The longer you stay in, the more efficient you're being.

 

However, there is one slight flaw. The number of traces you can hold is capped. There's an end there, however you look at it.

 

Anyway, without knowing the exact details, I would make some suggestions:

1) if they can't already, allow people to play rounds without cabbages, just for the traces

2) allow void cabbages (aka relics) to be cooked in mission by shoving them with some void seasoning (aka traces) in void ovens (aka fissures)

 

Maybe - because for some reason people want the void to be special - only allow cooking seasoned cabbages in normal missions if you use a (new) landing craft with the ability to ignite a void oven, while ovens in the void are naturally lit.

[LuckyCharm]

I think i'd like the endless relic thing as its been shown. The longest part for most missions to me is the whole group up, wait for everyone to stop screwing around, load in part. Followed by the leaving, loading, resetting, waiting again for people to ready up and finish loading again part. Not the actual doing of the mission. With this new system I'd definitely get relics broken faster for at least the first 25 minutes with a decent party

[IggySnow]

1 minute ago, LuckyCharm said:

I think i'd like the endless relic thing as its been shown. The longest part for most missions to me is the whole group up, wait for everyone to stop screwing around, load in part. Followed by the leaving, loading, resetting, waiting again for people to ready up and finish loading again part. Not the actual doing of the mission. With this new system I'd definitely get relics broken faster for at least the first 25 minutes with a decent party

you're still talking only about endless missions though. no matter how you spin it doing capture or rescue and in most cases exterminate missions will still be faster than endless missions even with loading screens and such.