The Second Stream Podcast: Endless Relics, Fortress Assault, Enemy Armor, & More

[Evanescent]

24 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

Exactly, but that only ever occurs when you've planted yourself for a long duration into an endless mission.. which isn't the sole mission type in game. OR if you happen to be using a sub par weapon, which honestly I'm assuming isn't a part of the argument. You can't crystallize this as something that occurs all the time everywhere due to armor. It only occurs when players challenge themselves to participate in an extended run, at that point they should expect some form of difficulty. 

Ahha! I found out how to separate the quote. I was talking about the relevance of fast paced gameplay in high level play. It feels much better to be bouncing between walls and picking of enemies while dodging their shots rather than stunning them with CC and then watching them each mag after mag. I'd much rather prefer DE kept our fast paced gameplay alive in  high level stuff and make it 'kill or be killed' rather than be bulletsponge fests. Kiinda like DOOM, I guess? I've always felt it had the right amount of tankiness combined with damage output to keep enemies challenging but not frustrating.

24 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

Between you and me.. and this is just my perspective on it.. with all the work they're doing with TWW as well as the two other frames that are incoming.. I wouldn't count on this being a thing for a looooong while if ever. Remember, just because it was discussed on a devstream, doesn't mean its a 100% guarantee.. its pretty much just live brainstorming.

I realize that, but seeing it being acknowledged makes me breathe a little easier It may not be soon but at least it's on their minds.

24 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

You do realize that you're comparing a light unit with a heavy unit right? Lets compare apples to infested apples lol.. While infested heavy units may still be easier to kill than a grineer heavy unit their real threat is their ability to buff surrounding units, making it kind of difficult to take them on along side their buddies.. but making it difficult to kill their buddies. Grineer heavy units on the other hand are heavily fortified and just difficult to kill plain and simple, but pose no buffs to their allies. You gotta remember that each faction has distinctive fighting tactics so its not as simple as doing a one to one comparison. 

You could compare a corrupted lancer in that case I guess? I was mainly pointing out that it's the enemy that determines the aura's threat and not the other way around, and most auras being dependent on being applied over time as they are, the enemy's tankiness ultimately ends up determining their threat level (speaking specifically about eximi).

24 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

Exactly! And that's the approach of the infested 100%! Each faction is going to have their unique approach, which is what makes the game interesting.. if all of them adopted the same play, it wouldn't be nearly as thematic.. and wouldn't be nearly as butt clenching when they get together and combine their tactics in the void! 

Not really, I can't agree with you here. Infested focus on getting you stunned/slowed/knocked down before hitting you with waves of persistent attacks. The ancients just mindlessly apply buffs to whatever they happen to be around, and certainly the infested don't attack in formation!

The Aura stacking thing may be attributed to them, but that I feel is like saying CC should be the domain of just one warframe. It's too useful of a tool to keep restricted to the infested, and the corpus already have some of it with their scrambus and comba, and the grineer with their prosecutors. The infested are unique in how they never let you rest, the grineer in hitting you with firepower backed by sheer numbers and armor, the corpus in hitting you with specialized, dangerous units beefed with regulr grunts to soak some fo their damage. Not saying armor shouldn't be a thing (I mean if you took armor completely away the grineer would lose their flavour), but that it should be toned down a notch.

24 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

Literally just watched the world record run live on twitch yesterday where they spent 7hours going up to wave 136.. while the armor didn't stop their progression the 1 hit kills definitely made for some intense moments. Trust me, that snowglobe didn't save them. 

I really wanted to watch that stream, but between part-time jobs and college reports man I don't find enough time! But I think you'll agree that the challenge came from what the enemies could do to you and not what you couldn't do to them? that's mainly what I want DE to do: to make enemies dangerous so that they don't need bulletsponginess to be a challenge. It's kind of a frustrating yet hilarious situation when enemies and player alike are bouncing bullets off of each other like so many spuds. You end up looking more at the life support meter than the enemies themselves, because they are just walking life support supplies to you for most of the run.

24 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

I think the verbage on that is inaccurate.. It's more like modding to negate specific challenges in order to focus on progressing. The progression itself is difficult.. the enemies increased damage ouptut, the increased health pools, and the fact that your weapons will only continue to do the same amount of damage regardless of how far you decide to go. Not to mention the resource management you need, IE ammo, health, shield and energy restores. 

I think we can both agree that a Trinity makes energy cost irrelevant in a group, and the weapons of choice taken have enough ammo efficiency that unless it's an auto weapon you're likely to never run out of ammo unless the enemy levels are in the thousands, I agree on the energy restores, but only on certain frames.

24 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

I feel strongly that this has been addressed in the above answers.. but if you haven't watched it, I do believe that wGrates, DanieltheDemon, ShulGaming, and animatedbreak should have this in their twitch vods. If you watch the last half hour, you'll see that you've definitely minimized the threat of these enemies. CP doesn't necessarily make these enemies easy to kill, and CC doesn't keep you from getting damaged 100% of the time.. when facing level 2000+ enemies that 1% is enough to cause the mission to fail. At that point it's all about playing perfectly.. and as we're all human beings that's not always going to be the case. 

That's only in the very extremes though. In the levels that are still quite high but not that extreme you can mitigate that damage quite a bit. Still, that's a fair point. Yet again, the challenge came from what the enemies could do and not what you had to do to the enemy.

24 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

Sometimes, and while I'm not the kind of person who really wants it.. its all just for the glory. Just to be able to say that you did it! If you watch the twitch vods you'll see what I mean. 

I'll never really get that kind of personality, I guess. I liked going for an hour or two (well over an hour and half my game would crash without fail) but never that extreme.

24 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

OMG, YAAAAAASSS!! This I 100% agree with!! Not necessarily to kill off endless, but to have this be an option too!! The thing is there are A LOT of people that like mindless slaughter (I definitely do occasionally).. so let them have their missions, but also in turn, even if just occasionally give us these tactically tough encounters for those that enjoy a different type of challenge. 

Yep, that's what I was saying. Keep the mindless slaughter, but punctuate it with high intensity encounters to jolt players. You don't need stupid high armor to pose a challenge.

[Askannon]

1. Are you interested in playing longer endless Fissure missions when they'll allow additional Relic unlocks and Trace?

I would not want to do additional Relic unlocks because I don't have so many that I even could think about farming because I have no interest in playing excavation or whatever (maybe survival) to get those relics.

As a main solo player you don't have the interest in those modes in which you can have a easy game as a group but has to work really hard as solo (and sadly those are the ones where you get relics easily).

I would be interested in staying longer if the relic I use gets an additional chance to roll whatever it can offer (but in the end you would only get to choose one out of the rolled). This way you could make survival work better with the relic system (no need to stop the flow for new relics; but I don't know if thats too efficient for your taste, but in my eyes of a solo player there is no reason to play fissures (since you don't get those relics as easy as you would if you have the interest and the group to go farming in defense etc. (thats my opinion))

[Operative_Shift]

3 hours ago, Evanescent said:

Ahha! I found out how to separate the quote.

Hahaha!! I know exactly how you felt!! It feels like each forum or forum type of place has different set ups, so it always feels nice once you manage it!! XD

3 hours ago, Evanescent said:

I was talking about the relevance of fast paced gameplay in high level play. It feels much better to be bouncing between walls and picking of enemies while dodging their shots rather than stunning them with CC and then watching them each mag after mag. I'd much rather prefer DE kept our fast paced gameplay alive in  high level stuff and make it 'kill or be killed' rather than be bulletsponge fests.

Wait a second though.. doesn't "fast paced gameplay" contradict your approach of "tactically tough encounters"? I'll be honest with you, endgame in almost any game isn't meant to be fast paced, but more deliberate and thought out.. As we saw with the weekend stream, and in your reference to tactics being priority, it's all about playing as perfectly as possible, not necessarily zipping through missions by bobbing and weaving.  For more advanced things, you're going to need CC and ways to address enemy advantages, like armor.

3 hours ago, Evanescent said:

I realize that, but seeing it being acknowledged makes me breathe a little easier It may not be soon but at least it's on their minds.

Yeah but, I'm just being extremely realistic here.. on their minds, and on their plates are not at all the same thing. So I'd almost suggest wiping its possible existence from your brain, unless they begin talking about their progress on it. 

3 hours ago, Evanescent said:

Infested focus on getting you stunned/slowed/knocked down before hitting you with waves of persistent attacks. The ancients just mindlessly apply buffs to whatever they happen to be around, and certainly the infested don't attack in formation!

The Aura stacking thing may be attributed to them, but that I feel is like saying CC should be the domain of just one warframe.

Technically they do have a formation.. its called swarming. Regardless thematically the infested win by overwhelming numbers, whist the Grineer is all about self fortification, with their hardest targets being difficult to kill without the right set up. Highly armored individual units vs. a swarm that stacks buffs. And while, you're right, certain tactics shouldn't be 100% exclusive to just one faction (shown by the grineers adoption of quick moving targets like the manics, and the jesters set to release in TWW)..each faction however has their defining characteristic, you can't just take that away from them because you don't like it. 

3 hours ago, Evanescent said:

But I think you'll agree that the challenge came from what the enemies could do to you and not what you couldn't do to them? 

Innacurate.. what you did to them was use the right team comp and the right loadouts to control them so that there were less issues you had to combat. All the preparation and planning ahead of time, and the way you set your team up was what you did, and minimizing that fact takes away from a BIG part of the game. 

3 hours ago, Evanescent said:

that's mainly what I want DE to do: to make enemies dangerous so that they don't need bulletsponginess to be a challenge.

Lol kind of like nullifiers? Not bulletsponges by any means.. easily killed, yet one of the most detested by players. 

3 hours ago, Evanescent said:

I think we can both agree that a Trinity makes energy cost irrelevant in a group, and the weapons of choice taken have enough ammo efficiency that unless it's an auto weapon you're likely to never run out of ammo unless the enemy levels are in the thousands

Just because Trinity exists, doesn't mean she's always going to be used in every group. You can't balance an entire game on the existence of one Warframe. In addition they began to run out of ammo on level 100 enemies and not all of them were using full auto weapons, in fact there were bows, and orb launchers. Again, hyperbolizing the situation just makes your argument seem less relevant, as having to rely on that kind of statement to validate what you're saying just means that what you're saying doesn't carry enough weight on its own. 

3 hours ago, Evanescent said:

I'll never really get that kind of personality, I guess. I liked going for an hour or two (well over an hour and half my game would crash without fail) but never that extreme.

I'm right there with you.. I've done it a couple times and while those times were fun, it's not something I'd want to do regularly. 

3 hours ago, Evanescent said:

Yep, that's what I was saying. Keep the mindless slaughter, but punctuate it with high intensity encounters to jolt players. You don't need stupid high armor to pose a challenge.

You don't NEED high armor, but it definitely raises the steaks. I'll take the high intensity encounters WITH armor plz!! I want an actual challenge, something that forces me to pre-plan as well as engage in skill based combat. See the fact is, there are different factions for a reason.. you don't want to deal with armor on your extended runs, pick one of the factions that doesn't specialize in it.  However, let the rest of us revel in the challenge if we choose to accept it!

[PookieNumnums]

The problem with mission isnt length, its arbitrary tasks that take exorbitant amounts of time.. like the raids. 

 

Faster tasks, More dangerous environs.

[PookieNumnums]

ALSO

 

and might i add imo MOST IMPORTANTLY,

 

i think it would be nice to implement all the past events and their wonderful lore and dialogue in as quests that comes with a universal replayability. 

 

yes.

Edited November 7, 2016 by PookieNumnums

[Evanescent]

7 hours ago, Operative_Shift said:

Hahaha!! I know exactly how you felt!! It feels like each forum or forum type of place has different set ups, so it always feels nice once you manage it!! XD

Wait a second though.. doesn't "fast paced gameplay" contradict your approach of "tactically tough encounters"? I'll be honest with you, endgame in almost any game isn't meant to be fast paced, but more deliberate and thought out.. As we saw with the weekend stream, and in your reference to tactics being priority, it's all about playing as perfectly as possible, not necessarily zipping through missions by bobbing and weaving.  For more advanced things, you're going to need CC and ways to address enemy advantages, like armor.

Yeah but, I'm just being extremely realistic here.. on their minds, and on their plates are not at all the same thing. So I'd almost suggest wiping its possible existence from your brain, unless they begin talking about their progress on it. 

Technically they do have a formation.. its called swarming. Regardless thematically the infested win by overwhelming numbers, whist the Grineer is all about self fortification, with their hardest targets being difficult to kill without the right set up. Highly armored individual units vs. a swarm that stacks buffs. And while, you're right, certain tactics shouldn't be 100% exclusive to just one faction (shown by the grineers adoption of quick moving targets like the manics, and the jesters set to release in TWW)..each faction however has their defining characteristic, you can't just take that away from them because you don't like it. 

Innacurate.. what you did to them was use the right team comp and the right loadouts to control them so that there were less issues you had to combat. All the preparation and planning ahead of time, and the way you set your team up was what you did, and minimizing that fact takes away from a BIG part of the game. 

Lol kind of like nullifiers? Not bulletsponges by any means.. easily killed, yet one of the most detested by players. 

Just because Trinity exists, doesn't mean she's always going to be used in every group. You can't balance an entire game on the existence of one Warframe. In addition they began to run out of ammo on level 100 enemies and not all of them were using full auto weapons, in fact there were bows, and orb launchers. Again, hyperbolizing the situation just makes your argument seem less relevant, as having to rely on that kind of statement to validate what you're saying just means that what you're saying doesn't carry enough weight on its own. 

I'm right there with you.. I've done it a couple times and while those times were fun, it's not something I'd want to do regularly. 

You don't NEED high armor, but it definitely raises the steaks. I'll take the high intensity encounters WITH armor plz!! I want an actual challenge, something that forces me to pre-plan as well as engage in skill based combat. See the fact is, there are different factions for a reason.. you don't want to deal with armor on your extended runs, pick one of the factions that doesn't specialize in it.  However, let the rest of us revel in the challenge if we choose to accept it!

Well it just comes down to what we prefer to be a challenge then! :D

Thanks for having a meaningful discussion, I've learnt some things and got to see some other points of view. I may not agree with them, but that's alright.

 

Also, Guys, we need to separate people from opinions, alright? You mught disagree with an opinion but that doesn't make a person your enemy or something. Let's have a polite conversation here, and stray away from personal attacks (most of the thread is doing that anyway).

[FloaATFourtwnty]

i like mission and my life ..

[Operative_Shift]

9 hours ago, Evanescent said:

Thanks for having a meaningful discussion, I've learnt some things and got to see some other points of view. I may not agree with them, but that's alright.

Also, Guys, we need to separate people from opinions, alright? You mught disagree with an opinion but that doesn't make a person your enemy or something. Let's have a polite conversation here, and stray away from personal attacks (most of the thread is doing that anyway).

Aww danke! Agreeing to dissagree is sometimes the best option, plus.. and I hope everyone remembers (and is most probably glad about this) at the end of the day DE is going to do their best to make the right decision for their game and their community. Beyond my own opinions & anyone elses.. (from my own private conversations) I know that they are always seeking to make the best product possible.. and when you do that for tens of thousands of people its hard to keep everyone pleased. So while you may or may not agree with some of their decisions, while you may or may not like certain mechanics, understand that this game is made to cater to more than you, more than your circle friends, more than those here on this forum.. but an entire community's worth of Tenno. 

We all want the best for this game, however the best has drastically different meanings  for each of us. 

[trunks013]

8 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

Aww danke! Agreeing to dissagree is sometimes the best option, plus.. and I hope everyone remembers (and is most probably glad about this) at the end of the day DE is going to do their best to make the right decision for their game and their community. Beyond my own opinions & anyone elses.. (from my own private conversations) I know that they are always seeking to make the best product possible.. and when you do that for tens of thousands of people its hard to keep everyone pleased. So while you may or may not agree with some of their decisions, while you may or may not like certain mechanics, understand that this game is made to cater to more than you, more than your circle friends, more than those here on this forum.. but an entire community's worth of Tenno. 

We all want the best for this game, however the best has drastically different meanings  for each of us. 

Good talk ^.^

is it me or your name actualy ring a bell to me.

Operative_Shift i saw that before i dont know where ^.^ 

[venon23]

1: I love long runs thats what makes the game cool and getting rewarded by doing it is better (btw i love what DE did with the new endless relic missions at start i was a little "what stop a survivel" but ends up great
2: well i see assult missions like mini raids and will be cool too have a miniboss at the end  as for the duration of a mission think it will be around 30 minuts 
4: well i only use 2-3 auras  corrosive projection energy shiphon and very specific warframes steal charge all the rest dont existe too me (and for most ppl)
5: dont realy have a opinion on this but ".... once u have all the mods u never do that again for the next 4 months utill new mods show up that is something it should be adressed for the nightmare mod exist..." i think the timer is ok but like i sayed before the mod could be something more...

3: think all quests should be replayeble  but i understand it takes time for that too happen so no big rush in there  at least for me but i dont have a big point for this question

Edited November 19, 2016 by venon23