Ember's Current State in the Game

[EtherealSlasher]

First I just want to say this is not a nerf thread, but Ember's World on Fire ability (like Mesa before her peacemaker change) has endorsed a lazy gameplay. I know that in higher levels her damge starts to fall off, but for most of the content in the game, players can run through missions just by getting some energy and keep world on fire toggled on. I feel her ability could at least use some tweaking to make playing ember more...interactive? 

I have a couple thoughts on how DE can go about this without making her unusable:

The first is to maintain the concept, but like the ideas on the ash rework, we mark our targets, activate the ability and constant flame eruptions engulf the target. Her not hitting everything automatically in and out of the line of sight can be made up for in increased damage or make the eruptions kind of like an explosion that damges the enemies near the target. You can also mark teammates to reinforce team synergy and cause explosive eruptions around them.

The second is greatly increased (or applied) fire damage to all weapons for Ember, but also add an aoe effect like when shoot it shoots visually enhanced incendiary rounds that explode when they hit the enmy or when you melee a fiery explosion would occur that guarantees fire procs and panics the enemy. The radius of the explosion can be increased by range mods.

Again I'm not asking for ember to be nerfed and she has gone through a lot of tweaks already, but none of the changes have really made her less of a lazy frame when it comes to her powers.

I'd like to hear everyone else's thoughs. Do you think she needs some revision?

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

You said it yourself, WoF damage is too low for higher levels, so that means it's not an overpowered ability and it doesn't need a fix.

[MrM1]

If they'll make Ember weaker, Ember Prime will be cheaper. This is not good for DE's economy since people would pay less money to get Ember Prime.

Due to money reasons, I don't expect DE to ''fix'' Ember, otherwise it would surprise me.

[Zachles]

It's... fine?

I use her World on Fire for low level Invasion missions, and for low level Relics. Especially Exterminate.

Trying to target stuff similar to Blade Storm rework is not very WORLD on Fire... 

[Varacal]

it does what its name implies, only thing i'd want added to it is the ability to increase the number of targets hit

[kaliazane]

9 minutes ago, EtherealSlasher said:

 I know that in higher levels her damge starts to fall off, but for most of the content in the game, players can run through missions just by getting some energy 

Maim Equinox can do same thing and he got even more range. He also doesnt have limit on targets hit.

Imo ember is fine.

[Xekrin]

10 minutes ago, EtherealSlasher said:

Ember's World on Fire ability has endorsed a lazy gameplay.

The same could be said about Equinox's Maim ability, moreso actually as it actually hits every enemy in range rather than randomly, and also staggers them, which wof does not do unless you have the augment.

Fact is wof with augment is pretty great CC and not much more in high levels, in low levels it isn't really about endorsing lazy gameplay more than it just makes low level missions faster.  Pretty much any ability can lay waste to any mission under level 20 - 30 without fail.  Ember is used because you just run, complete objective and ignore the enemies.  It is actually quite different from old Mesa, as peacemaker could and still can decimate extremely high level content.  Ember cannot.

I'm all for revisions on old abilities, and making things more interaction and allowing for better synergy, but I have to say starting out with "ember players are essentially lazy" isn't the best way to approach the topic.

As for your suggestions, I strongly dislike the first idea, making it like Ash's potential rework.  They aren't the same concept at all.  DE rejected the idea of turning bladestorm into some version of WoF, lets keep the opposite true as well.  Fire is generally understood as being a  high area of effect form of attack, forcing us to mark targets pretty much foregoes that concept.

The second idea isn't that bad though.  I very much enjoy the idea of modifying any attack to create a fiery explosion.  Of course fire doesn't do so well against some enemies, so it'd require a few tweaks to start with.  Combine it with the second half of your first idea, marking allies to give them an aoe aura of explosions sounds fun.  I don't know how practical it'd be but definitely fun.

[EtherealSlasher]

16 minutes ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

You said it yourself, WoF damage is too low for higher levels, so that means it's not an overpowered ability and it doesn't need a fix.

I'm not saying it's overpowered. I'm just saying that it's a somewhat lazy ability. I'm not asking for her to be nerfed just to endorse a less lazy playstyle.

14 minutes ago, Zachles said:

It's... fine?

I use her World on Fire for low level Invasion missions, and for low level Relics. Especially Exterminate.

Trying to target stuff similar to Blade Storm rework is not very WORLD on Fire... 

They can change the name?

7 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Maim Equinox can do same thing and he got even more range. He also doesnt have limit on targets hit.

Imo ember is fine.

A fair point, I suppose AI abilities aren't really going to disappear. Still equinox has some variety, something that ember is lacking. I love the fire aesthetics which is why I enjoy playing Ember, but I feel like she needs a bit more. I understand that there are those that do not.  

[EtherealSlasher]

3 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

The same could be said about Equinox's Maim ability, moreso actually as it actually hits every enemy in range rather than randomly, and also staggers them, which wof does not do unless you have the augment.

Fact is wof with augment is pretty great CC and not much more in high levels, in low levels it isn't really about endorsing lazy gameplay more than it just makes low level missions faster.  Pretty much any ability can lay waste to any mission under level 20 - 30 without fail.  Ember is used because you just run, complete objective and ignore the enemies.  It is actually quite different from old Mesa, as peacemaker could and still can decimate extremely high level content.  Ember cannot.

I'm all for revisions on old abilities, and making things more interaction and allowing for better synergy, but I have to say starting out with "ember players are essentially lazy" isn't the best way to approach the topic.

As for your suggestions, I strongly dislike the first idea, making it like Ash's potential rework.  They aren't the same concept at all.  DE rejected the idea of turning bladestorm into some version of WoF, lets keep the opposite true as well.  Fire is generally understood as being a  high area of effect form of attack, forcing us to mark targets pretty much foregoes that concept.

The second idea isn't that bad though.  I very much enjoy the idea of modifying any attack to create a fiery explosion.  Of course fire doesn't do so well against some enemies, so it'd require a few tweaks to start with.  Combine it with the second half of your first idea, marking allies to give them an aoe aura of explosions sounds fun.  I don't know how practical it'd be but definitely fun.

That is what I am saying. She is mostly used to speed through low level missions. She has great cc, but just because other frames have similar style abilities doesn't justify ember's world on fire and thanks for the feedback on the ideas, I was just putting some random ones out there that could maybe help everything be less automatic. I realize there can be much better changes.

[----Fenrir----]

29 minutes ago, EtherealSlasher said:

The first is to maintain the concept, but like the ideas on the ash rework, we mark our targets, activate the ability and constant flame eruptions engulf the target.

It would be way too slow. And Ember depends on WoF and it's CC to survive in higher level content. Ember is only really playable in stuff like sorties because WoF with augment knocks enemies on their behinds. Your idea would make her redundant in low level content and at the same time one of the worst frames in the game to bring to high level content.

[Xekrin]

2 minutes ago, EtherealSlasher said:

That is what I am saying. She is mostly used to speed through low level missions.

Well to be blunt and probably more clear, people like having one or two options designed specifically for speed missions.  You already know going into a level 6 exterminate that it literally poses zero challenge.  You want to get through it, get the reward and do something else.

Imagine if you had to kill every single (albeit low count) enemy of an exterminate with a bow and nothing else.  Every shot will one hit kill it, the tedium of the act would bore you to death.  People like having something that speeds that process up.

Just like volt is exceptionally suited for capture missions.  That is going to be the number one opposing argument to changing WoF.  The second being it only works this well "in" low level missions.  Take her to a sortie and wof becomes quite interactive, at least with the augment, as you still have to manually kill enemies knocked down by it.

[--Dark_Rage--]

Thats really fun to read about Ember rework from someone, who played 4 days. Lazy gameplay ? Really ? Maybe you should go a little bit farther than Mercury level, lol ? 

Ember also have not bad control, not only damage, if someone don't know.

Verdict - another nonsensical crying about nerf rework, not more.

Edited November 5, 2016 by --Dark_Rage--

[EtherealSlasher]

5 minutes ago, --Dark_Rage-- said:

Thats really fun to read about Ember rework from someone, who played 4 days. Lazy gameplay ? Really ? Maybe you should go a little bit farther than Mercury level, lol ? 

Ember also have not bad control, not only damage, if someone don't know.

Verdict - another nonsensical crying about nerf rework, not more.

I played for almost 2 years on ps4. This is my pc account. I've used Ember quite a bit especially when it comes to farming focus.

Btw attacking someones ideas by calling it nonsensical crying is not necessary. This is a forum to bring up ideas or talk about ideas present in the game.

Edited November 5, 2016 by EtherealSlasher

[DeadScream]

People talking about low level missions when you also see AFK WoF Embers in high level def missions... Same goes with Equinox's Maim, this kind of ability IS lazy and ruins the fun of everything. 

People complain because there is no challenge, but they only use the most lazy build ever in every single situation (I see you, simulor Mirage). 

 

In my opinion these abilities should be changed, to inflict their effects only on line of sight but with way bigger damage and effects to make them really powerful. Actually WoF is sad because it negates the use of any other ability from Ember (except Accelerant) because it does the job better for less energy use and no need to place or aim. 

[EtherealSlasher]

Just now, DeadScream said:

People talking about low level missions when you also see AFK WoF Embers in high level def missions... Same goes with Equinox's Maim, this kind of ability IS lazy and ruins the fun of everything. 

People complain because there is no challenge, but they only use the most lazy build ever in every single situation (I see you, simulor Mirage). 

 

In my opinion these abilities should be changed, to inflict their effects only on line of sight but with way bigger damage and effects to make them really powerful. Actually WoF is sad because it negates the use of any other ability from Ember (except Accelerant) because it does the job better for less energy use and no need to place or aim. 

If nothing else can or will be done, making line of sight would be a huge plus imo. I saw no point in being in an enemies line of sight when I had plenty of range to hit them from another room.

[--Dark_Rage--]

3 minutes ago, DeadScream said:

People talking about low level missions when you also see AFK WoF Embers in high level def missions... Same goes with Equinox's Maim, this kind of ability IS lazy and ruins the fun of everything. 

People complain because there is no challenge, but they only use the most lazy build ever in every single situation (I see you, simulor Mirage). 

 

In my opinion these abilities should be changed, to inflict their effects only on line of sight but with way bigger damage and effects to make them really powerful. Actually WoF is sad because it negates the use of any other ability from Ember (except Accelerant) because it does the job better for less energy use and no need to place or aim. 

Analogically, we may name "lazy gameplay" almost any effective build for every  Frame ( semi-AFK Banshee, hello).

[DiabolicalHamSandwich]

Seriously, these constant calls for change are getting a bit annoying if I am being completely honest. Why does it bother you that people wish to speed things along? even more so in a fast paced game? they are low level missions which serve no other purpose but a gate to a end. As you have said, the dmg falls off making it nothing more then a possible utility at high lvls especially with something like quake attached, a low level street cleaner, or just a cc/okish dmg in mid lvls. Why try to make a simple mission that is trying to be sped through unnecessarily involved? Why are people so hell bent on synergy and activity all of a sudden? Are a few extra clicks really going to do it for you folks? 

But to answer your last question, no I don't think she needs a revision where WoF is concerned. It serves as a way to speed things along because believe it or not, not everyone wants to take extra time doing a mission. I don't want to always use excessive abilities or weapons if I am trying to speed through a simple alert. There are more then enough frames for that already to where not everyone needs to be in the same boat.

2 minutes ago, DeadScream said:

People talking about low level missions when you also see AFK WoF Embers in high level def missions... Same goes with Equinox's Maim, this kind of ability IS lazy and ruins the fun of everything. 

People complain because there is no challenge, but they only use the most lazy build ever in every single situation (I see you, simulor Mirage). 

 

In my opinion these abilities should be changed, to inflict their effects only on line of sight but with way bigger damage and effects to make them really powerful. Actually WoF is sad because it negates the use of any other ability from Ember (except Accelerant) because it does the job better for less energy use and no need to place or aim. 

Then leave? I mean why does it bother people so much what others do? If someone wants to make a lazy build, then let them! If you don't like the way they are playing, leave the match. It is just. that. simple. WoF isn't even game breaking or OP because there are more then enough abilities or weapons to outclass it in both speed, power and utility. 

Why must people play like you folks want them to play? why are folks so bothered by how others choose to play? 

[DeadScream]

2 minutes ago, --Dark_Rage-- said:

Analogically, we may name "lazy gameplay" almost any effective build for every  Frame ( semi-AFK Banshee, hello).

Yeah same for Banshee, the only sacrifice for SQ is that you can't do anything while using it, but it also ruins the gameplay for everyone else in the squad especially with this sick augment...

8 minutes ago, EtherealSlasher said:

If nothing else can or will be done, making line of sight would be a huge plus imo. I saw no point in being in an enemies line of sight when I had plenty of range to hit them from another room.

By line of sight i meant your line of sight. Your ability would prioritize enemies which are close to your reticle, and will spread to others. The more the enemies are close to you, the more they endure explosions etc, but if the only enemy in your line of sight is 100m away he will still be hit by your ability. 

I think it would make a fair change and drastically damage the actual issues of the game, that can be named "people complain because they are too powerful but can't decide to get rid of their OP loadout which kills everything with no effort at all". 

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

Honestly if everyone else with "press button to melt all enemies on map" are getting nerfed I don't see why not.

Ive joined a couple pugs lately with Embers leading up front clearing room after room just walking a few meters ahead. Was boring as f@ck.

Kinda worse than that era where everyone ran Saryn and would rush to the next room to see who could press 4 faster.

Edited November 5, 2016 by sushidubya

[DeadScream]

2 minutes ago, DiabolicalHamSandwich said:

Why must people play like you folks want them to play? why are folks so bothered by how others choose to play? 

Because the way you choose to play basically prevents us from playing ? Like, I don't know, playing a low level exterminate but you can't do anything because your friend Ember just walks ? Just like these exterminates wouldn't be more enjoyable if we actually played them ?

[Volinus7]

2 ways of thinking

1. Buff Ember

2. Nerf other frames

 

 

3. Nobody cares if the game has sl-litty balance or not.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Volinus7

[----Dante----]

it should drain more energy or have energy per meters moved added like Volt MES and also line of sight

its just funny, so powerfull ability has no drawbacks at all.

and to ppls defending WoF its only good vs low lvls, yeah its good but problem is everything in warframe atm is a low lvl and embers just run through mission w,o givin a dam.

[QCAnubis3]

Personally i only use her wof ability if im surrounded and can't get past some points usually makes games too easy anyway lolz but it's hella fun in survival :D

[(XBOX)ThermalStone]

If I wanted to have to look at the things I kill, I'd bring Mirage with Simulor.

Leave Ember alone.  She's the best frame for content below level 50 and not very good above that.  That's fair.

[DeadScream]

Just now, (XB1)ThermalStone said:

If I wanted to have to look at the things I kill, I'd bring Mirage with Simulor.

Leave Ember alone.  She's the best frame for content below level 50 and not very good above that.  That's fair.

Fair for Ember players, unfair for everyone else in the squad except Mirage with Simulor and Equinox. 

And don't say "go solo then", the affinity gains are miserable and many game modes are boring as hell when playing alone. 
And we don't all have much time to make squads with recruit channel, however it would take a hour to make one just because we don't want to watch an Ember do all the job.