Ember's Current State in the Game

[(XBOX)KoS Horizon]

Sounds like you want ember nerfed because it kills more enemies than you can and it's upsetting. You can have an ember to.

[Arrectius]

I read some comments on this topic and i have to say that Ember is fine as it is, if you have a problem with an ember killing everything on low level missions, you can go alone and now:

- If you say to me is not as rewarding, i have to say: im sorry, but what kind of rewards can you get on those low level missions, affinity?, in a low level mission, the affinity gain is worthless.

- If you say that you want to do the killing yourself, you can go alone and take all the time in the world to clear that alert by yourself.

- If you say that you want to compete on who kills more, you can join with ember or equinox yourself and see who moves faster and better through the mission.

- If you say you want to compete who kills more with guns, you can do the alert with a friend, and compete there, if you want to try this on a public matching you are really naive, some people just want to finish that dumb alert asap to return to do other things, or are you going to tell me that you never had the need to finish a mission asap.

Most of the time i run alerts by myself cuz i dont like waiting at the end of the mission for everyone, and when i join public games that are "easy" i do it completely knowing what im probably find so i go with this kind of gearing: ember with just one leveling weapon, that way i can speed run things if i get people not geared enough or on the other case just walk and let the others do all the kills to level my weapon, after all shared affinity works wonders in that regard.

At the end i dont really see a point to ask a change on ember.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Arrectius
Some proofreading

[EtherealSlasher]

Well, after going through the thread again it seems things are pretty split as it has been through several of the Ember threads. There are some who want her to remain as is and some who don't. Good points on both sides, but I personally think it couldn't hurt to try something completely new and see what happens. I'll keep enjoying Ember and all the other frames for what they are, whether or not they get changed, but after seeing many of the rework threads I thought I would voice my opinions as well. This was my first topic despite playing for almost 2 years and lurking for answers to stuff and it was great hearing everyone's thoughts. Feel free to continue posting your thoughts, but I'm going to go back to my lurking state and enjoy the game for what it is. Cheers.

Edited November 6, 2016 by EtherealSlasher

[Racter]

Ember is pretty brain dead in level 20-30 content, I agree. But then again, so is every other frame. Mobs that can be killed with a bullet jump should not ever be a consideration for balance changes.

 

I've said this before, but the entire problem is that people are using the equivalent of top tier raid gear to fight level 10 mobs. It has been a problem for the entire life of the game, and all signs indicate it will remain this way in the future. 4/5/6 forma frames/weapons are absolutely going to obliterate level 10 mobs, regardless of what frame it is, even Limbo/Oberon/Hydroid/Zephyr can do this. We have almost no mid level content (just sorties), and absolutely zero high level content. It's not like you hit MR15 and suddenly all these trash level 10 5k credit 100 endo alerts are suddenly level 80 for 50k credits and 1k endo. A level 1 mob has the same drop table as a level 100 mob, so if you need a resource/mod you will always pick the low level version to farm. Star chart rewards go from literally nothing (15 endo for a 5 wave/minute reward? really?) to just above nothing. Even affinity gains, the one thing that does scale up based on level, have an almost trivial spread. If it wasn't for the way resources were spread around the star chart and prime farming, there would be no objective reason to leave Earth.

People with high end gear should never have game play (general missions, alerts, etc) reasons to run level 10-20-30 missions. Until this is fixed, you will always see complaints like this. No amount of nerfing will get around this problem unless every single damage frame becomes worse than an un-modded Limbo and every single weapon worse than a Mk1 Braton, as all content currently available to us can be completed like this. Sorties were a start, but not the end. We need high level alerts, actual high level sorties, etc before any serious balance discussions can really take place.

Additionally, there is a sharp contrast in what players want the game to be. People who enjoy it as a horde shooter want high damage AOE weapons and frames. There are also people that enjoy the tactical TPS aspects of the game (shockingly, some of these are the same people!). Generally, they want the game to be slower, with more of a single target focus, fighting against drastically improved AI instead of scaling enemies. I definitely think both can coexist, but there is significant room for improvement.

To sum this rant up in MMO terms, we have raid geared players farming mobs in the starting zones because there is literally no reason to go anywhere else. Nerfing the players, which is what DE has been doing for over a year now, will not solve this problem. Things like pre-nerf Miasma, Shield Polarize, EB; current Bladestorm, World on Fire, weapons like the Boltace, Tonkor, Simulor etc are not themselves problematic, the issue is the lack of meaningful content designed around them.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Racter

[TheSteelRat]

13 minutes ago, Racter said:

Ember is pretty brain dead in level 20-30 content, I agree. But then again, so is every other frame. Mobs that can be killed with a bullet jump should not ever be a consideration for balance changes.

 

I've said this before, but the entire problem is that people are using the equivalent of top tier raid gear to fight level 10 mobs. It has been a problem for the entire life of the game, and all signs indicate it will remain this way in the future. 4/5/6 forma frames/weapons are absolutely going to obliterate level 10 mobs, regardless of what frame it is, even Limbo/Oberon/Hydroid/Zephyr can do this. We have almost no mid level content (just sorties), and absolutely zero high level content. It's not like you hit MR15 and suddenly all these trash level 10 5k credit 100 endo alerts are suddenly level 80 for 50k credits and 1k endo. A level 1 mob has the same drop table as a level 100 mob, so if you need a resource/mod you will always pick the low level version to farm. Star chart rewards go from literally nothing (15 endo for a 5 wave/minute reward? really?) to just above nothing. Even affinity gains, the one thing that does scale up based on level, have an almost trivial spread. If it wasn't for the way resources were spread around the star chart and prime farming, there would be no objective reason to leave Earth.

People with high end gear should never run level 10-20-30 missions for any reason. Until this is fixed, you will always see complaints like this. No amount of nerfing will get around this problem unless every single damage frame becomes worse than an un-modded Limbo and every single weapon worse than a Mk1 Braton, as all content currently available to us can be completed like this. Sorties were a start, but not the end. We need high level alerts, actual high level sorties, etc before any serious balance discussions can really take place.

 

I spent a year in this game, getting every mod, putting 4-6 forma in my weapons and Warframes, ranking up my mods so that low level content is easy, and should be easy.  DE has done nothing to balance the game so that new players are on equal footing as veteran players except an arbitrary badly done and forgotten "Conclave rating".  But the moment you say "High end gear should never run low level missions" you are telling people that they should be prevented from playing 100%  for the only reason that they are too good

never going to happen.

If you have a problem with it, don't do public games.

[Guest]

@EtherealSlasher No, please leave ember alone as is.

I use Ember in two main missions when Solo.

1. Syndicates missions - When running around looking for my marks, I' prefer to do it as quick possible. I don't want to waste too much time at this because the quicker I regain rep, the quicker I can supply the weapons ect into the trading chat. It helps me with some plat and in turn it helps you (or the person looking for the weapon)

2. Invasion missions - I assume you are aware that missions have to be done 3 times? The quicker this is done, the better for the community as the battle pay is paid out much faster. Mutagen mass and Alad V coordinates are an example of battle pay that takes a while to gain enough of.

It comes down to a choice you must make. Either accept the squad you are with or leave the current mission and try again.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Guest

[kyori]

Perhaps should just make it a 1 time firing ability like Frost's avalanche.Imagine Frost with World on Ice(sounds like a skating performance) running around frosting everything LOL

If this is nerfed, ember players will be unhappy... 

Wait.. no one complained about this ability killing teammates during radiation proc like ash power 4? Wow... this proves people just hate ash getting the most kills in missions.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, kyori said:

Wait.. no one complained about this ability killing teammates during radiation proc like ash power 4? Wow... this proves people just hate ash getting the most kills in missions.

I think you can search the forums about many complaints about pressing 4 for the win.

[RealPandemonium]

8 hours ago, traybong111 said:

While I agree with most of what you said in 2nd paragraph, I'm a bit torn on this issue. I understand why even some Ember main vets wanted WoF to be a channeled ability back then--it didn't have a high damage potential, and at 10 seconds base duration it was a Fire Blast with better damage and nothing more on most vets' efficiency-centered builds. Because of its duration and random-targeting nature, I don't think WoF could have been anything other than a 'fire and forget' ability regardless of channeling. It needs to have both higher damage and degree of precision dictated by player if it's to escape the passive, fire-and-forget status. (With DE's current plan for Bladestorm rework, I think this is the direction DE wants to go as well.)

Unless DE turns WoF into something completely different, Ember will stay where pre-rework Saryn was. And I'm not opposed to just replacing World on Fire with something else, it's not like Ember didn't have ability replacement before. I'd rather Fire Blast receive a damage buff (from 250 to 400) and WoF be replaced with some kind of self-buff ability that can only be sustained through kills. I want to keep Ember as a high-risk high-reward frame who's mainly dependent on killing for sustaining her power. 

In case anybody's still mistaken: rushing low levels with AoE nukes is not a problem, it's a natural course for a game like Warframe to take. Warframe is all about efficiency, and unless DE changes the very core of Warframe progression there will always be rushers and your complaints about them are mostly in vain. What I'm proposing with Ember will still allow her to rush through low levels (after all, I didn't put 40 Formae in her so I could listen to every level 5 Lancer's life story before they die), so please get it into your heads that speed and rushing through missions will always be Warframe pub games' natural tendency and if you don't like it you play solo or with your own group. 

I used to use WoF when I needed an extra boost of DPS or when I needed to apply damage from behind cover in especially dangerous situations.  I far preferred the previous duration-based incarnation of WoF to the current one.  We should go back to something like that but with a longer duration cap, ramping energy costs, and bonuses that encourage thinking about how to use the power instead of just recasting asap.  

[Marvelous_A]

Her OPness in low level comes with sharp damage falloff in high level. Still, she has an innate damage buff and also quick CC (Accelerant), so she is playable. Therefore I would say she's fine though I hope she could be more useful in high level missions.

[RealPandemonium]

@ The people claiming Ember's damage falls off at high levels: every form of damage falls off against Grineer at high levels.  Ember is even in better shape than most due to how high her damage is innately.  "Ember falls off" is more of a meme than anything.  

Edited November 7, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[kyori]

9 minutes ago, Chimpers007 said:

I think you can search the forums about many complaints about pressing 4 for the win.

Really? I have never seen anyone complained about ember WoF

[----Dante----]

funny thing is on pax aus there was a question which thing killed the most enemies in october

and on the top were synoid simulor, ember prime, ember, tonkor so you get the idea how abusive WoF is atm if u have 2x of the same frame on top 

ember is just fun killer for every 1 else in team, its as broken as simulor mirage or banshee sq

 

Edited November 6, 2016 by ----Dante----

[Mickey33]

Ember, ash, saryn, mesa - these are what peeps keep raging about their abilities because such frames "steal" kills. Ember 4 is fine as it is for low level cheesy, you are NOT going to gain much from killing those lv10-15 mobs yourselves. Lv30-40-50 is what focus farm at and ember 4 do pathetic dmg against those.

[(PSN)Bosnia_Akhalar]

I prefer an ember can kill level 300+ by doing some " spell combo " ( like mag, saryn ... ) than a "lazy" ember can kill lv10-30 only.

[SenorClipClop]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Bosnia_Akhalar said:

I prefer an ember can kill level 300+ by doing some " spell combo " ( like mag, saryn ... ) than a "lazy" ember can kill lv10-30 only.

You kinda can right now, but it requires patience and a very particular setup. Using a combination of Accelerant, status effects from her other abilities and heat damage on her weapon of choice, you can effectively trap a high level enemy in place and make it next to useless while you whittle down its health. Not as effective as Mag or Saryn, though. (Whenever I'm playing Mag and get invaded by Syndicates, I feel bad for the hit squad. They tried so hard.)

[Racter]

10 hours ago, -CM-Kinnison said:

I spent a year in this game, getting every mod, putting 4-6 forma in my weapons and Warframes, ranking up my mods so that low level content is easy, and should be easy.  DE has done nothing to balance the game so that new players are on equal footing as veteran players except an arbitrary badly done and forgotten "Conclave rating".  But the moment you say "High end gear should never run low level missions" you are telling people that they should be prevented from playing 100%  for the only reason that they are too good

never going to happen.

If you have a problem with it, don't do public games.

 

You misunderstand completely. My point is that we should never have a (game play) reason to run it, not that we should be literally locked out of it. I literally stated that low level content is easy and will always be easy for people that have modded gear, that is not an issue as it is part of early game progression. The entire problem is that enemy progression basically stops at level ~50, while an "end game" load out is aimed at something closer to three times that.

I'm not sure how this was unclear in my previous post (unless you literally stopped reading at that sentence) but I tried to edit it for more clarity.

37 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

You kinda can right now, but it requires patience and a very particular setup. Using a combination of Accelerant, status effects from her other abilities and heat damage on her weapon of choice, you can effectively trap a high level enemy in place and make it next to useless while you whittle down its health. Not as effective as Mag or Saryn, though. (Whenever I'm playing Mag and get invaded by Syndicates, I feel bad for the hit squad. They tried so hard.)

It's not even this complicated. The only issues Ember has right now are armor scaling and Disruptor auras , which screw everyone but Ash equally. A properly modded Ember can still kill into the 150-200 range reasonably well against unarmored enemies with just Accelerant.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Racter

[Brasten]

As a preface, here is how I define stages of Warframe play:

• Early Game: Jupiter Junction, this is where you can start building Warframes. Base enemy level caps at ~20.
• Mid Game: Up to Second Dream/ Neptune Junction. Base enemy level caps at ~30.
• Late Game: Clear Star Chart (arguably The War Within when it comes). Base enemy level caps at 40 to 45.
• End Game: Variable, but Trails and Sorties give base enemy level ranges as 80 to 100.

10 hours ago, Racter said:

People with high end gear should never run level 10-20-30 missions for any reason. Until this is fixed, you will always see complaints like this.

So, nope. You don't get to force people out of playing content just because you don't think there isn't a reason. Here are some:

• You lock out everything up to and including bits of Neptune (which is were you start seeing the first post 30 enemies, non-endless)
• Helping new players on the missions/bosses there are stuck on
• Helping new players to(with) Alert mission
• Lith/Meso Relic framing
• Resource gathering (yes, even "end game" players still sometimes need Neural Sensors and Orokin Cells)
• Sabotage (depending on faction and rewards)
• Sliver Grove (which is Earth only)
• Invasion/Infestation/Alert rewards
• Playing with Friends who have relatively new accounts

It's not "high end" or "end game" gear that is itself an issue. It's enemy and player scaling as a whole, in the damage system. Don't confuse the issue. Root causes! Not symptoms.

And you don't need "high end" or "end game" to make Ember (or 22 other warframes) remove level 30 or lower enemies from the game. Simply having the core ability boosting Mods (Intensify, Streamline, Stretch, Continuity). Combined with the fact that Lua is level 30 at max (outside of endless) and accessed at Mastery Rank 5, so lets add The Seven Principles Test mods. Power Drift and Cunning Drift. Needing 4 to 6 Forma + 1 Aura mod (can even be Speed Holster), or 1 Orokin Reactor.

It's not too hard to build (warframe builder)

A very early "late game" 4 Forma Ember (no Reactor, no Exilus, not Prime) that leaves WoF at:

• 35.00 Power Cost
• 1.62 Power Cost per Second
• 580.00 Head (damage)
• 24.00 m Radius

Even if you just hold it to a solid "mid game" 2 Forma Ember . 

• 35.00 Power Cost
• 1.62 Power Cost per Second
• 520.00 Head (damage)
• 21.75 m Radius

Hardly "end game" builds. And it is not just Ember that will wipe out level 30 and lower enemies with such "mid game" builds.

[Jhaelen]

Ember as far as skills go doesn't need another nerf, I know what the OP and others are getting at but if anything, it's not the frame that needs nerfing, it's the attitude of some players. We all know it can be annoying when you get a mirage/simulor, ember, banshee, equinox etc with their ults modded up and killing everything in a low level but it doesn't matter what you say, they will still do it. People like that don't care that they piss others off, they just want to max themselves... and that's fine. That's the way they want to play and they don't care about anyone else. Doesn't matter what you say, you won't get through to them.. so I suggest you do what I do.. just leave and find another party. I leave because I log on to play and not to be a spectator. They are playing the game the way they want to play, you play the way you want to.

[Incogni7o]

I personally like the idea of having at least 1 'lazy gameplay' frame, because all you basically do is farm and farm and farm, and run repetitive missions most of the time.

A frame like ember makes the job easier and less boring, especially for players that like to play and farm a lot, but that's just my opinion.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Incogni7o

[--Q--Savokki]

19 minutes ago, Incogni7o said:

I personally like the idea of having at least 1 'lazy gameplay' frame, because all you basically do is farm and farm and farm, and run repetitive missions most of the time.

A frame like ember makes the job easier and less boring, especially for players that like to play and farm a lot, but that's just my opinion.

i also prefer having an "lazy" frame, you can spam only so much until your fingers fall off. doing +20 runs (for starters) relick missions are much more fun and efficient with ember rather than running with excalibur spamming eb everywhere or something similar.  you could take equinox and do the same job even better with maim (at low lvl).

Edited November 6, 2016 by --Q--Savokki
add info

[SenorClipClop]

9 hours ago, Racter said:

A properly modded Ember can still kill into the 150-200 range reasonably well against unarmored enemies with just Accelerant.

Guess I'm doggin' it then. But then I don't really put crazy powerful builds on Ember (nor have I put any Forma into her), and I use quite a bit of mod space for defensive stats, because I like my Ember being at least a little tanky.

[RealPandemonium]

12 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

You kinda can right now, but it requires patience and a very particular setup. Using a combination of Accelerant, status effects from her other abilities and heat damage on her weapon of choice, you can effectively trap a high level enemy in place and make it next to useless while you whittle down its health. Not as effective as Mag or Saryn, though. (Whenever I'm playing Mag and get invaded by Syndicates, I feel bad for the hit squad. They tried so hard.)

Lol, Mag and Saryn don't have any real advantage over Ember, and killing with Ember doesn't require a unique setup, either.  It's not rocket science.  

Ember will remain the way she is. She's not weak or strong right now which is where DE wants her. Plus, it hard to farm Oxium without WoF. Those Oxium Ospreys are hard to kill and it would just make Ivara and Loki that much stronger. Yeah, balance will go to the ground unless invisibility is removed from the game entirely. 7000 oxium for Vauban will be next to impossible.

Lolwut.  Not only irrelevant, but very wrong.  

Edited November 7, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)TertulSee]

Ember will remain the way she is. She's not weak or strong right now which is where DE wants her. Plus, it hard to farm Oxium without WoF. Those Oxium Ospreys are hard to kill and it would just make Ivara and Loki that much stronger. Yeah, balance will go to the ground unless invisibility is removed from the game entirely. 7000 oxium for Vauban will be next to impossible.

Edited November 7, 2016 by (PS4)godlysparta

[Avereth]

WoF is already interactive.  If you want it to do enough damage, you have to spam accelerant and supplement with the fire explosion to burst enemies down.  It is not possible to nerf it without making Ember completely useless.  At least Ash can still massacre stuff once his nerf kicks in.

 

Honestly, I really enjoy that Ember lets me do some content without really pressing anything.  It's helped with avoiding carpal tunnel from spamming buttons so much and hands that aren't in agony are pretty great if you ask me.