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[DE]Danielle

[TWW] Endless Void Fissure Missions Feedback

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These points have probably already been made in here but:

Letting people leave as they need to and still be able to keep their rewards is a huge problem, the only way I (or anyone else) can run through as many relics as they want is to play solo, public squads rarely agree on how many rounds and the complaints are common.

I've seen quite a few instances of random people not getting to chose the reward even after getting all 10 reactants, 2 players out of 4 on this most recent run.

I know it's nothing new but someone disconnecting from the host on one of these could easily mean they get nothing for an hours time and relics, if there's any way to work around that it would be very welcome.

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Aside from all the things others have said, we need to have invulnerability during the relic window popup in the mission. Played excavation and 3/4 players died while the "choose your reward" screen was up.

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From an external point of view (since I've not played it yet), the numbers just don't make sense. There's very little incentive to go endless given we already have the relic/traces system. In the old days, endless was a way to extract as much prime juice out of a single key. Making the trip length be directly related to the amounts of parts you got and therefore ducats. Now the trip length has no effect on how many parts you'll get, in fact it will have a reverse relation. The longer you stay the less relics/hour you're going to be opening. So why should I spend hours grinding 15 relics (for example), when I could run 15 individual fissure missions in less than 30 minutes? The math doesn't work and as much as I appreciate DE listening and trying to bring back endless in some fashion, this isn't it. 

What is needed is one of two things. Option one make relics easier to farm (maybe make them drop in groups of 3), and make them drop in more places. Option 2 make each relic contain 3-4 parts each. 

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Here's an idea that will save time.

You should have a menu in your ship where you can pre-load the relics, set up which relic is loaded for the mission to start, which relic is used at 5,10, etc, etc, instead of having to look through your relics quickly between the waves. 

Because right now what you have to do is basically remember which relics you are going to use before going into the mission.

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Only one question

for example

after 10 minutes of survival i want to quit the mission.
what i need to do?
"quit mission"?
the reward remain ok but i'm not sure is the right way

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I like the idea, I don't like the time it takes to go up to 75waves... And more importantly, I really don't like the fact that the enemies can oneshot the pod Oo !

 

I was just doing an endless mission (meso relic), we were at wave 65, the pod was at like 100% or 99% of its health and suddenly a scorch did his wave of fire and... "Mission failed". That seems a tiny bit too much damage. Especially since we were not event at the famous wave 75. =/

So there goes all the credits, the orokin cells, and the traces that we had...

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I'm not sure if this is the place to post this, but when the 5 minute interval arrives during an endless Void Fissure mission their is a major difference with the timers that follow. the 5 second timer that counts down to reveal the contents of the relic is dependent on each client's game clock followed by the relic selection screen which is based on the host's game clock then the last 5 seconds is once more calculated off of the client's game clock.

This is a major problem because once the client is playing on a considerably lower frame rate than the host their 5 second timer will count down much slower than the host and may in some cases disallow the client from choosing a reward from the wave. when this happens the client is directed to the relic selection screen and after selection resumes the match with the 5 second timer once again being based on the client's game clock. 

Similar game clock mechanics have been long been in the game. from Loki's invisibility's timer remaining although he was no longer invisible or rhino's roar appearing to still be in effect for the client while it had already elapsed for the host, but for it to be implemented in a game mode such as this, and to have such inconsistency in timers that are so close together seems to be counter productive.

I do not believe that it would have been so bad for the initial 5 second timer to be based off of the host's game clock. as it seems quite unfair for the client to be prevented from making a decision as to what reward they would receive just because of a lineup of inconsistent timers.

Attached are 2 screenshots taken while the 5 second timer was elapsing. One where the timer was at 3 seconds while the game clock was at 25:15 and the other shows the same mission at 2 seconds but the game timer was at 25:19  so in the span of 4 seconds of the host's game time my timer had only elapsed 1 second.

http://prnt.sc/d9azwo

http://prnt.sc/d9aysu

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On 2016-11-12 at 5:08 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

Interception, Defense, Survival, and Excavation Endless Void Fissure Missions have been revamped and now function in a new way! 

First, every reward interval can have it's own Relic selected and opened (if you get enough Reactant per interval). 

Secondly, the reward intervals are as follows (for clarity):

Defense: 5 Waves.
Interception: 1 Round.
Survival: 5 Minutes.
Excavation: 200 Cryotic. 
 

this is simple to solve with the intervals problem why not change the intervals to

Defense: 10 Waves.
Interception: 2 Round.
Survival: 10 Minutes.
Excavation: 400 Cryotic.

that would solve the the less reactant problem to not get enough on some mission from the start issue and people have chance to get a bit of booster to in fissure and when relics runs out they can end the mission.

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Yeah its great until you get a group where the majority have no lives and want to spend 2 hours in an survival mission so YOU CANT LEAVE BY YOURSELF unless you forfeit every reward your relics and your fissures.

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i just played survival with two clanmates, on Friends Only. after 5 minutes, i chose my reward, then the game crashes when the timer is on 2 secs after relic choise. i reconnect, chose a relic, play second round of 5 minutes, gather my reactant. extract: no reward from first round, no reward for second round. gg

EDIT: 2 times in a row.

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i don't know if any one has had this happen the fissures stop when a teammate leaves a defense or interception that is not the host. when a host leave the game just kinda freezes we can talk but we cant move or do anything. if they were to increase the amount of time to get a single relic reward people would just go back to do capture or exterminate because its faster. Maybe increasing the range at which the fissure corrupt enemies to an entire area or a half depending on room size instead of those that are near the fissure for endless. to the above post about wanting to leave before other people is that its endless so many people go into a these endless games to play so they can stay awhile not leave after 5 minutes. Making it possible for people to leave early in a survival would make it just as bad as interception and defense where people leave after only doing 5 wave/1 round. if a person wants to leave the first reward i think they should go play a different game mode because there is no real reason to play the endless game modes if you just going to leave. i think that in interception and defense should have a majority leave stay function this would encourage people to communicate more with each other. this would also help stop people trolling other players between rounds waiting for the very last second to to switch to leaving.

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I'd like a culmination of all these idea and maybe sprinkle in some new ideas of my own.

One of two things needs to happen

  1. Change the Rewards tables so better rates occur when dragged out (Current system, but bump up the multipliers and move the Rewards tables up IE getting better Relic rewards sooner)
  2. Change the Layout of the "Endless" Versions of a mission which I will explain after this.

I would much rather prefer the second more as mixture of the two ideas. With Survival changing the time would really break up gameplay and take away from the overall feel of survival. So I propose rewarding more per (2 relics as a reward and they can be random) and as you get further make them drop exceptional with a guarantee of 1 Radiant and the second rolling a possible Flawless or higher. And the further on you get increasing the rarity of said relic for 1 and only one being of Rare quality relics. Do this while cranking up the resource/credit/affinity rewards a little higher per 5 minutes. Edit: Possibly instead of 2 relics (always) guarantee 1 relic always and possible Endo/Credit/Forma/Second Relic/Bulk Resource reward (and make the guaranteed relic upgrade the further you go IE first reward Endo Drop(based on how far you are) second reward meso C1 (radiant)).

As for defense look into turning down the needed reactant to maybe 5-8 and turning each break at 3 rounds over every 5. Maintain current rewards table but instead of every 5 being your relic  reward, every 3. It would switch it up from the regular defense missions, but would make the payout for staying in more worthwhile. You can't upgrade relics, so you can't increase drop rates of harder to get primes midgame until you reach higher tiers and get them flawless/Radiant relics and hope you get a relic you want with those chances.

This would make all the missions a bit more fun in my book. Maintaining the other endless would be ok in my eyes other than maybe adjusting the relic rewards so they are work on the same table as Defense I propose. Mainly going for 1+ hours to just get a chance at better picks isn't very worth it at this point. If at an hour I've gotten my fair share of strong RNG rewards and spending that extra time trying to play RNG for them higher prime drops it would make people stick with it. But if i have to wait an hour to even start that trend I'm going to be pretty burned out.

Basically the only endless at this point worth running are Intercept and Excavation. Because you can crank out relic rewards faster and work towards the higher tier rewards in under an hour rather than waiting almost 1.5 hours just to start getting higher level stuff from a survival. Adjustments need to be made since we switched to relics over keys. Endless should be rewarding, not feel like its endless to get to a high reward. Drag it out too much no on shoots for them high tier rewards. No one wants to run 50 waves of defense to start feeling "rewarded". By the time I've hit R50 the mobs are 400%, rounds have been dragged out and gotten extremely tougher with the scaling, and I finally got a Radiant reward? No way.. By 50 I want to be have cracked a few of them Radiants and really want to feel a sense of reward for sticking with my game that long

If you find any part confusing in this explanation I'd be more than happy to iterate on my ideas and possibly work in other's ideas on how to maybe fix my ideas. But as a base I feel this is the way the system needs to move.

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So today it happened again. I've done numerous endless fissures and have had pretty good luck for hosts so far. At this survival I'm talking about, everything seemed fine, no network lag or anything whatsoever. Then suddenly after the 20 minute mark reward selection and count down, a huge lag spike hits. Directly after that, host migration. And after that, loss of connection. As I had seen this happen once before, I knew everything gained was lost at that moment. I confirmed this by checking my inventory... and proceeded to write another ticket.

Even if things seem perfectly fine on the topside with a game of no lag whatsoever, something in the transitions seem to be able to cause those perfectly fine games to topple over. I do hope this can be solved eventually by DE. Support must have a lot of work right now.

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On 14.11.2016 at 8:15 PM, ssh83 said:

When relic consumption is saved, the reward gained NEED to be saved also.

Was going to come to give this exact feedback too. Clan mate has now lost +5 relics relics to this on two different occasion.

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After going through 12 rounds in survival (over 1 hour) and 10 rounds in interception (over 1 hour), I feel that the rewards are too marginal. Relics should be rewarded much more often. The current system of increases is insufficient, given the amount of time to actually reach 10+ rounds. After 10 or 11 rounds, most players are overwhelmed by the exponential enemy scaling (enemies reach level 80-100+), so the rewards from rounds 15, 20, 25, and beyond are totally irrelevant, not to mention the amount of time to needed to get there.

In the 12 rounds of survival, I consumed 12 relics while gaining only 4 relics from the rewards.

This makes more sense to me:

  1. 1.25x affinity, credits, resources
  2. 1.25x affinity, credits, resources + 1 relic
  3. 1.5x affinity, credits, resources
  4. 1.5x affinity, credits, resources + 1 relic
  5. 1.75x affinity, credits, resources
  6. 1.75x affinity, credits, resources + 1 relic
  7. 1.75x affinity, credits, resources + 1 relic [exceptional]
  8. 1.75x affinity, credits, resources + 1 relic [flawless]
  9. 1.75x affinity, credits, resources + 1 relic [radiant]
  10. 1.75x affinity, credits, resources + 1 relic [radiant]
  11. This round and beyond continues to reward 1.75x affinity, credits, resources + 1 relic [radiant]

TLDR? Summary:

  1. The current endless reward system is too conservative because:
    • Too much time to reach the 10th interval (1+ hour)
    • Enemy scaling makes achieving intervals 15, 20, 25, and so on impossible or too time consuming
    • This new system is therefore more reasonable. Feel free to up the rewards even more (I am being conservative in this post).
  2. Award relics more frequently because the rewards are dependent on actually consuming a relic.
  3. Make the game less grindy by upping the rewards.

The holidays are coming, and these tips will surely make players happy. :satisfied:

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I have a nuisance mostly with T1 (Lith) and T2 (Meso) fissure excavations.
In these entry level fissure missions most players don't understand, that everyone should have 10 reactants (opened relic) before the next 200 cryotic is excavated.
Most players don't seem to understand that halting the excavation by not putting more energy in, is to allow us time to open the relic.
I'm tired of explaining to them, most of them don't understand English or simply don't understand the basic mechanics of fissures and excavations.
Please, fix this by having more enemies and/or better reactant drop rate .


Another note, please add the void rewards to the account during missions, crashing or disconnecting in a long mission and losing many rewards feels very devastating.

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So far, it's just been confusing, due to WF's signature lack of in-game information (but that's an issue for another day and a lost battle, anyway). I've thought it was some weird bug until I did a google search (wasn't included in release notes of patch it appeared/implemented in).

In addition to the technical issues, there is the social issue of diversity: players want to do different things.

For example, If I want to do one relic and the only mission available is an endless, I have to either toss the dice on getting a PUG that's also leaving after the first cycle, wait for the mission to change to a non-endless one, or go solo (much fun is lost when soloing).

Whatever your desire, if you're the odd player out, you're stuck going along with the rest of the group (or sacrificing the mission rewards), even if you started the mission alone. Add in the possibility for players to arrive midway through a mission, and you could lose significant chunks of invested time.

SOlution 1: Always have a non-endless option for each relic tier. Those that want to do quick can do quick, those that want to go long can repeat the same mission and only miss out on the additional bonuses.

Solution 2: Add a sort of 'cash out' option that lets players leave a mission as if they'd extracted immediately after completing the most recent reward cycle.

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I love how quickly bugs that benefit the player get fixed (operator void trace farming for one, something that worked really well, yet required a great deal of skill to execute in endless missions), yet bugs that totally screw the player are ignored until people are on the verge of sending death threats. (All the countless raid bugs that have existed forever, and grow in number with every patch)

DC and rejoin makes you lose all your rewards, asks you to equip a relic of the wrong era, and then doesn't actually unlock the relic when you get 10 reactants.  Also doesn't let you pick subsequent rewards.  

Being in menu at reward countdown locks you into an invisible menu, prevents any actions as a player once combat resumes.

All in all, the incentives for extended endless missions don't outweigh the costs of doing them.  Relics drop as maybe 50% of endless mission rewards, yet you have to expend 4 relics as a team for every single endless wave.  

Half the boosters granted in mission are useless in practicality since no one is leveling gear nor focus in this.  Nor are they farming credits, given the garbage credit rewards from fissure missions as a whole.  I can't even tell if the in-mission boosters are stacking with my active boosters or not.

Relics can't be refined in mission, meaning you eventually get REDUCED odds of getting good rewards the longer you go.  (You run out of refined relics unless you're one heck of a hoarder). Meanwhile, boosted traces eventually push you to cap, meaning you actually lose out on the traces granted by opening relics. There's no way to stop this since you can't refine in-mission.

It'd be nice if endless missions provided a stacking relic refinement booster to the point that all relics used were boosted to at least a flawless level.  ESPECIALLY since relics can't be refined in-mission.

Endless missions must be planned out long in advance, and prepared for with a known team since everyone needs an equal minimum number of relics of the same era, preferably with equal refinement of specific relics.  That's completely opposite of the old endless system.

The alert system is totally inconsistent in terms of providing endless mission options to play.  There are often no endless offerings at all, or there is only one for a relic era that you don't have, or a faction you really loath.

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I ve done many survials with relics and now i can say for sure they are droping way to less reactant.1. If the team splits u will never have 10 reactant in 5 min. So u ve to run from one team mate to an other and hope u get 10 reactant. Mostly the time is to short for that and u dont get 10 reactant. 2. There are spawn problems in survial. Enemys spawning as a group. If one survives from that group not enough new enemys are spawing in time. That is bad for reactant and for life support. This spawn problem can happen if an enemy spawns behind the wall and get stuck, or it finds no waypoint. There is also a big slowdown is spawnrate after some min at 25 and 50 min. If u start game u ve enough enemys after some time they spawn less but u still need life spupport and reactant.

Take a look at spawnrate.  I had some survials where i had no enemy in range in solo game.

3. Reactant sometimes land behind the wall. There u can´t pick it up and u may not get 10 reactant in time. Why carrier can´t pick them up. I dont get it.

4. There are hard migrations issues. If host left the game it freezes. 

5. In cases of crash or point 4 host migrations problems game freezes all relics are consumed without giving any reward.

6. In excavation it is nearly imposseble to get 10 reactant with two excavators.

7. Why carrier cant pick reactant up?

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imo I would like to choose the endless missions seperated because you always have to wait till the ENDLESS one for AXI will APPEAR in the "Alert" mission system.

i would prefer that the ENDLESS MISSIONS are always there in the "Alert" Missions Slot. the time that goes down will only change the location for the next AXI MESO NEO or LITH Endless MISSION. it would be better instead of waiting for an Endless ones that fits with your goal of Prime part Farming. i would make from every endless mission one in one different Tier.  survival Meso Neo Axi Lith DEFENSE meso neo axi lith  .. And so on. and if the Timer is down to zero it changes the Location of this Missions.

PS Sry for my bad English.

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Just out of curiosity are the endless void fissure missions designed to stop providing fissures at some point? I've been in 3 this week that have decided it would no longer provide reactant after the prize selection and extract/battle menu.  

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Just did 5 rounds excavation in public with rank 1 and 3 players who I assume did not speak English. They were not able to open single relic in that time so maybe reactant drops should be increased a bit. Might have been pretty frustrating experience for them.

Edit: Mission was Lith tier, Kiliken Venus

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On 19.11.2016 at 8:47 PM, sunnis said:

this is simple to solve with the intervals problem why not change the intervals to

Defense: 10 Waves.
Interception: 2 Round.
Survival: 10 Minutes.
Excavation: 400 Cryotic.

that would solve the the less reactant problem to not get enough on some mission from the start issue and people have chance to get a bit of booster to in fissure and when relics runs out they can end the mission.

Please, don't say such silly thing. Find normal clan with normal players to farm enough reactant in time. Simply don't kill casual enemies until they get corrupted. If it's survival - stay close to be sure reactant doesn't fall in opposite sides of map. If it's interception - be sure to capture no more than 2 towers before you get all reactant. If it's excavation - don't feed second excavator before getting enough reactant.

I tried to run lith excavation in public mode today and it was pretty painful. What did I see? I saw players didn't give chance to get 10\10 to whole squad including themselves. I saw Ember 5 lvl equiped by player mr2. I don't want to say that I'm godlike pro and everybody with low MR are noobs, but.. He paid no attention to excavators and.. Tried to kill symaris target. Also I saw players extracting after 200 cryotics... Why? I don't know. Maybe to make random people mad. Cause there was lith capture at the same time.

But finally I got into normal squad with frost and slow nova. We stayed really for long, got like 500-600 traces and tons of exp and prime stuff. That was worth suffering other randoms. So all I wanted to say - 100 cryotic or 500 for one relic... Whatever number. If your teammates don't realise what are they doing it doesn't mater how much time you give them. You should create normal squad before mission, like in good old days for t4 long-run endless missions. Ignore random or suffer.

On 18.11.2016 at 11:58 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

Here's an idea that will save time.

You should have a menu in your ship where you can pre-load the relics, set up which relic is loaded for the mission to start, which relic is used at 5,10, etc, etc, instead of having to look through your relics quickly between the waves. 

Because right now what you have to do is basically remember which relics you are going to use before going into the mission.

Would be helpful  - will make sure that no teammates equip no relic inside the mission. However too hard to make real. Like what would you do if you are not sure for how long exactly are you going to stay? Or if you would want to spend relic you got during mission? Or if you want to "equip G1 until geting Galatin bp, afterwards equip N1 until getting Necros bp"? No, you don't leave mission after G1 before N1 because you don't want to loose boosters. etc.

Would also have been great if we could upgrade relics with gotten during mission traces but too unreal too.

On 22.11.2016 at 3:03 AM, WolfTitan said:
  1. The current endless reward system is too conservative because:
    • Too much time to reach the 10th interval (1+ hour)
    • Enemy scaling makes achieving intervals 15, 20, 25, and so on impossible or too time consuming
    • This new system is therefore more reasonable. Feel free to up the rewards even more (I am being conservative in this post).
  2. Award relics more frequently because the rewards are dependent on actually consuming a relic.
  3. Make the game less grindy by upping the rewards.

Boosters make sence for endless missions, not relic rewards. You get lots of prime stuff, you get much xp, you get extra traces, you get credits and as a BONUS you get some more relic rewards. Sometimes you spend less time than for nonendless missions. Asking for such fast boosting and guaranty of so often relics is too much.

On 24.11.2016 at 0:29 AM, DonOctane said:

6. In excavation it is nearly imposseble to get 10 reactant with two excavators.

Don't feed second excavator with power until 10\10.

===============================================

1. Lotus commenting reactant too much. About that I need reactant, about enemies dropping reactant and that I need more to open relic. For every relic in endless mission.. Gonna get even more annoying than Ordis.

2. Fissure excavations and survivals really need extraction option for every single player like it is in defence and interceprion. Some players don't want to play for too long risking with their loot and I don't want to leave when two of teammates want to extract because I want to play more with boosters.

3. Excavation relic rewards (maybe others too) can't be used during fissure. That makes no sence.

4. Fissure benefit was that you can choose a type of mission to farm exact prime stuff. However now, with endless missions released, we have to wait too long to play the type of mission we want. Would have been great if endless and non endless fissure mission appearing was split. I mean, always at least 1 endless and 1 nonendless mission for every tier fissure.

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