Jump to content

My two cents on the starmap "junction" system


Enno69
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hello to all, I have recently taken a hard look at the starchart rework, and while I globally loved it, I wish to share my feedback about the mandatory junctions, which IMO is a mixed bag.

 

Pro : - It gives newer players a motivation to explore the nodes and learn the mechanics, instead of rushing straight to the boss.

         - Cool specter fight and rail activation

 

Cons : - Among the junction requirements, while some are good - the boss fights stayed - a bunch of them seem plain stupid, as in, neither motivating not making sense, such as defeating eximuses on Earth (newbies won't even know what they are and nothing in game will explain it), craft weapons or keys they might not need, running 5 missions with only melee equipped, or farming principles mods on Lua (which can be tedious enough when they are optional and you're motivated to find them) to unlock an unrelated planet.

           - The new junction system messed up the quests. Previously, they either appeared in the codex once MR and planet requirements were fullfiled or could be "bought" from the market and either way, you always had the choice to complete them or not. People are now being forced to do sidequests they might not care about - for ex. Stolen Dream, New Strange -, temporarily locked out of others who used to be freely available - ex. Hidden Messages - or worse, forced to play the main quests in order to complete the starchart before they feel ready to tackle them. If I compare that with my own experience with quests - so this is subjective - I feel like I would nowadays enjoy them a lot less. For instance I would not be able to run through Second Dream (now required to unlock Pluto) with my Mirage (comes from a quest which is now rewarded for unlocking Sedna, the next and last planet), lessening the emotional impact of the finale.

           - Finally, for veteran players, the junctions make it so that new content starts being locked beyond annoying requirements, which is a bad thing. Fortunately, planets stayed where they were after the transition to the new starmap ; but then, why, in order to play War Within, do I have to basically unlock Sedna again, moreover through stuff I have already done (collect mods, craft a MR 5 weapon...) ? This just feels... weird.

 

So to sum it up, I'd suggest two changes to make the junctions more enjoyable (again, that's just my opinion) : 1) Adapt the junction requirements to make them more engaging and coherent

2) Besides Vor's Prize, remove all quests from the map ; they should not be requirements to progress (it forces them through players' throats instead of being that cool extra stuff you can do) or even junction rewards (it locks them beyond what feels like arbitrary progression walls). They should remain optional and should be obtained by more organic means, either automatically once the conditions of MR and when lore-necessary of planet (not junction) are fullfied, like before, through buying a BP like Sands of Inaros and the old Hidden Messages/Limbo Theorem, or through talking to people, like Silver Grove, Man of Few Words, or the old New Strange.

 

Anyone wishes to add to that or call me a self-entitled idiot ?

 

 

Edited by Enno69
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was not happy that a Junction quest was a requirement for TWW... I had Sedna unlocked already, and that should have been enough. Completing the Junction quest was tedious, frustrating, and pointless. What's more is that I see no real relation between the Sedna Junction tasks and TWW. I don't know of anyone who did TSD and didn't play Lua.

Edited by Dobravolets
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Dobravolets said:

I was not happy that a Junction quest was a requirement for TWW... I had Sedna unlocked already, and that should have been enough. Completing the Junction quest was tedious, frustrating, and pointless. What's more is that I see no real relation between the Sedna Junction tasks and TWW. I don't know of anyone who did TSD and didn't play Lua.

I feel the same. As I tried to explain in my post, imo the new system brings issues for both newer players and veterans. I, for my part, do not mind the junctions, since I do not need to do them : I have already unlocked all planets and done the quests I wanted to do, when I wanted to do them. However, once I'm being forced into it to play the latest quest, that's when it becomes a problem, as you (and me and others on different topics) already pointed out. I remember when Second Dream came out and it was immediately playable right after update, that was awesome, as it should have been. TWW on the other hand already left a bitter taste in the mouth before I even started it.

 

Edited by Enno69
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, TentownsRaid said:

To be fair most of the junctions only take maybe an hour to unlock for veterans. Also DE does give a heads up for quest requirements a week or 2 before. 

Check the "News" panel on top ; it reads " The War Within is available to all Tenno who have completed the Second Dream and have unlocked the planet Sedna." They didn't mention the junction, they didn't say we'd have to unlock it a second time if we had had access to the whole solar system prior to starmap rework.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Enno69 said:

Check the "News" panel on top ; it reads " The War Within is available to all Tenno who have completed the Second Dream and have unlocked the planet Sedna." They didn't mention the junction, they didn't say we'd have to unlock it a second time if we had had access to the whole solar system prior to starmap rework.

A lot of us found out up to 2 weeks before because of the information being distributed to Youtube content creators who then made videos about it.

To be honest I also found the Sedna junction to be an irritating obstacle. But I think that was more to do with, as you say, the requirements of the junction than of the junction itself. IT ALSO probably didn't help that they didn't do any back-tracking of any of the requirements for the junctions when Spectres of the Rail launched. Obviously, they couldn't do it, but that just meant that people that had already, for all intents and purposes, finished the stuff required for the junctions were still locked out of being able to complete them. 

I can't really comment on the progression of the new starchart. I was one of those ones that had it fully open to me, as soon as SotR dropped, so I'm not entirely sure how its progression works. At face value, I would say the weapons obtainable are probably fine. But with the quests... I don't know. With the Mirage vs. SD example that you gave, that sort of issue has to exist for there to be decent pacing. If you wanted to lock the Second Dream quest behind the last planet (Sedna) for the sake of allowing them to access Mirage- and by extension, Saryn- for the quest, that wouldn't necessarily be fair to new players that have to trudge through upwards of 100 hours to get there. 

I don't mind quests being locked behind 'arbitrary progression walls' because those give the illusion of progression, BUT they shouldn't be awarded as junction rewards. You're suggestion to make them more organic is a good one- it would make much more sense, narratively, to obtain quests as the result of certain missions on the starchart. Quests as requirements on the other hand I think should be removed, with the exception of the big cinematic quests. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It makes sense to have the planet unlocked for a quest which takes place there... In-universe, it means that the Operator would be able to travel there. But doing the junction quests? As everyone's saying, it makes little sense. Perhaps players who already have a planet unlocked should have the junction marked as complete and not have to do it for quest requirements?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Pyrippo said:

Pretty much agree with everything you said. Didn't check any youtube video about TWW out of fear of being spoiled. As I pointed out earlier, the official notes on this site mention the planet, not the junction.

No Backtracking is indeed an issue. I'm not sure how "they could not do it" ; if they could check which quests you have accomplished (the only requirement that works retroactively), could not they check your stats to see hat you have defeated XX opponents, that you have crafted plenty of weaps and that you are sitting on a pile of Lua mods ?

You claim "that sort of issue has to exist for there to be decent pacing. If you wanted to lock the Second Dream quest behind the last planet (Sedna) for the sake of allowing them to access Mirage- and by extension, Saryn- for the quest, that wouldn't necessarily be fair to new players that have to trudge through upwards of 100 hours to get there" . There I disagree. How did it worked, again, with the old system ? Mirage's quest was available at any time, although the crafting requirements for both quest BP and warframe components were kinda steep for new players (with ciphers, argon etc), insuring they would have to progress before accessing this content. Meanwhile Second Dream was released fo those who had completed Natah, had the necessary MR and the planet (Uranus I believe, not the last one), and could be done at any time. Logical and motivating in both cases. You must be aware that some people are attached to their frames and take great care to assemble the "perfect" loadout before engaging on the new lore quests ; they are posts dedicated to that on the forum. Forcing them to play the quest at some definite point, or else they can't complete the starchart, is just a bad move. I didn't not suggest to "lock" main quests behind planets, simply to remove them from junctions, to not make them requirements, as you agreed, so that players can progress in the story at their own pace.

" I don't mind quests being locked behind 'arbitrary progression walls' because those give the illusion of progression, BUT they shouldn't be awarded as junction rewards. You're suggestion to make them more organic is a good one- it would make much more sense, narratively, to obtain quests as the result of certain missions on the starchart." I only suggested what was already in the game. Rather than "I can play this quest because I have collected X mods, killed XX enemies and opened a relic", it makes more sense to obtain quests gradually through MR as you, personally, become stronger - either through the Lotus giving them to you, or by interacting with people or mysteries around (see Natah, excellent example). In fact not every quest follows this actual, bad pattern; Sands of Inaros, Silver Grove and Man of Few Words are still independant from the starmap, and that works just fine.

Most quests can't be completed without unlocking the related planets, sure, but there's a difference between "Can't do that because I don't have yet access to the location" and "Can't do that because I haven't run 5 missions with only melee equipped and spend two hours farming Lua mods" (or whatever). It doesn't feel the same.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really don't get what people are complaining about with the Junction reqs. They are not hard. 3 Lua puzzles, build a mastery level 5+ weapon, and whatever else (I forgot). Build the Talons and go to Plato, Lua with the biggest burst weapons and most durable frame you got.

Furthermore, If I recall, Natah and Second Dream require junction unlocks as well (Yes, both of them came out before Specters of the Rails update)

Also, I learned that you needed to complete the junction from the forums.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

what bugged me about the junction system is that before to the update i had most planets unlocked except neptune and pluto

i had defeated all the bosses in that path however after the update, all of the defeated bosses needed to unlock those planets did not register in the junction requirements as completed and had to be done again even quest bosses such as tyl regor, vor and AladV, only the completed quests registered but (not the quest bosses) as done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Insizer said:

I really don't get what people are complaining about with the Junction reqs. They are not hard. 3 Lua puzzles, build a mastery level 5+ weapon, and whatever else (I forgot). Build the Talons and go to Plato, Lua with the biggest burst weapons and most durable frame you got.

 

They are not hard, but they can be annoying, especially when you already had the starmap open and already had completed the requirements before the rework. Moreover Sedna is especially grindy, I'd even say it's one of the worst junctions if not the worst ; principles mods can be a pain in the bottom even with a squad, since the rooms spawn randomly and nothing tells you what to do if you don't already know the challenges) and crafting a weapon means you have to delay playing the quest by at least 12 hours (unless you spend plat to rush), which is as frustrating as it gets. Even you crafted all possible weaps in the past, you still have to do it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Enno69 said:

They are not hard, but they can be annoying, especially when you already had the starmap open and already had completed the requirements before the rework. Moreover Sedna is especially grindy, I'd even say it's one of the worst junctions if not the worst ; principles mods can be a pain in the bottom even with a squad, since the rooms spawn randomly and nothing tells you what to do if you don't already know the challenges) and crafting a weapon means you have to delay playing the quest by at least 12 hours (unless you spend plat to rush), which is as frustrating as it gets. Even you crafted all possible weaps in the past, you still have to do it.

  • I already had done all the reqs prior to the starchart rework, so I had to do it again.
  • As for 12 hr crafting time... that's not that big a deal. You start building the idea and come back in half a day.
  • The puzzle mods (that's what I call them) are not too hard. heck, one of them just drains your shields and the teamwork puzzle is fairly easy if you have someone on the team that has done it before (granted you need 4 people to do it, 2 if you both use your Focus meter ability entity to sit on the weight). I will admit that some floor me though. I've yet to do the speed one and the "flying through the room dodging lasers" one myself, and I need Wukong to do the "pipe organ to the sky" one. 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Enno69 said:

There I disagree. How did it worked, again, with the old system ? Mirage's quest was available at any time, although the crafting requirements for both quest BP and warframe components were kinda steep for new players (with ciphers, argon etc), insuring they would have to progress before accessing this content. Meanwhile Second Dream was released fo those who had completed Natah, had the necessary MR and the planet (Uranus I believe, not the last one), and could be done at any time.

In the case of Mirage- access to the BP and resources wasn't the only restriction. Access to the nodes that housed the answers to the riddles was also restricted by access to the respective planet, as it still is. The solution node to the last riddle in Hidden Dreams is on Sedna, so in reality there isn't necessarily any point in changing the way in which Hidden Dreams is locked behind the Sedna Junction. In the case of Natah, the req's haven't changed. You need a minimum of MR 3, with obvious access to Uranus. That's it. It's not even tied to a junction.

DE's attachment of quests to junctions is a thought route of progression. There's nothing there which doesn't necessarily make sense or break the sense of progression. Having them as requisites for junction requirements just ensures that you have enough knowledge about the game's systems and lore to progress. 

15 hours ago, Enno69 said:

You must be aware that some people are attached to their frames and take great care to assemble the "perfect" loadout before engaging on the new lore quests ; they are posts dedicated to that on the forum.

To be clear- I'm also one of those people. But you must also acknowledge a difference in perception between us as 'veterans' (i.e. playing before the quests and changes to the starchart) and new players. To us, we already had the frames and weapons available when, for example, the Second Dream dropped. We knew of, had experience and or access to all the frames and because of that, we knew which ones we wanted to take. To new players, they have access to their own selection of frames and weapons that as you say, they care about. If they're playing through the Second Dream I doubt many would care about no being able to play Mirage, because either they don't care, or they would acknowledge that accessing it means progressing further in the game.

15 hours ago, Enno69 said:

Most quests can't be completed without unlocking the related planets, sure, but there's a difference between "Can't do that because I don't have yet access to the location" and "Can't do that because I haven't run 5 missions with only melee equipped and spend two hours farming Lua mods" (or whatever). It doesn't feel the same.

And this is the main issue. It isn't about quests or progression, as such- its about the damn junction requirements on Sedna. Specifically the one regarding the Lua mods. The principle rooms are side-objectives that a lot of players choose to ignore. I can understand why DE wanted to get people experiencing them, but one could argue that forcing players to do something that they don't want to do, in order to get to the new quest, wasn't a good move.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Insizer said:
  • I already had done all the reqs prior to the starchart rework, so I had to do it again.
  • As for 12 hr crafting time... that's not that big a deal. You start building the idea and come back in half a day.
  • The puzzle mods (that's what I call them) are not too hard. heck, one of them just drains your shields and the teamwork puzzle is fairly easy if you have someone on the team that has done it before (granted you need 4 people to do it, 2 if you both use your Focus meter ability entity to sit on the weight). I will admit that some floor me though. I've yet to do the speed one and the "flying through the room dodging lasers" one myself, and I need Wukong to do the "pipe organ to the sky" one. 
  • Same for me.
  • It's not a big deal if you don't mind not playing the quest immediately after update, which, luckily, was my case.
  • No they are not. But they spawn randomly, and some of them are extra puzzling (pun intended) without a walkthrough. I ran with a full squad, and betwee, the times where no room spawned, and the times where we failed the tests because we had no idea how to proceed, it took us about two hours to gain two mods.

 

  • 12 hours ago, Pyrippo said:

    In the case of Mirage- access to the BP and resources wasn't the only restriction. Access to the nodes that housed the answers to the riddles was also restricted by access to the respective planet, as it still is. The solution node to the last riddle in Hidden Dreams is on Sedna, so in reality there isn't necessarily any point in changing the way in which Hidden Dreams is locked behind the Sedna Junction. In the case of Natah, the req's haven't changed. You need a minimum of MR 3, with obvious access to Uranus. That's it. It's not even tied to a junction.

    DE's attachment of quests to junctions is a thought route of progression. There's nothing there which doesn't necessarily make sense or break the sense of progression. Having them as requisites for junction requirements just ensures that you have enough knowledge about the game's systems and lore to progress. 

    To be clear- I'm also one of those people. But you must also acknowledge a difference in perception between us as 'veterans' (i.e. playing before the quests and changes to the starchart) and new players. To us, we already had the frames and weapons available when, for example, the Second Dream dropped. We knew of, had experience and or access to all the frames and because of that, we knew which ones we wanted to take. To new players, they have access to their own selection of frames and weapons that as you say, they care about. If they're playing through the Second Dream I doubt many would care about no being able to play Mirage, because either they don't care, or they would acknowledge that accessing it means progressing further in the game.

    And this is the main issue. It isn't about quests or progression, as such- its about the damn junction requirements on Sedna. Specifically the one regarding the Lua mods. The principle rooms are side-objectives that a lot of players choose to ignore. I can understand why DE wanted to get people experiencing them, but one could argue that forcing players to do something that they don't want to do, in order to get to the new quest, wasn't a good move.  

     

  • I agree that my argument against "quests as rewards for completing the junctions" was kinda weak and subjective, it is indeed a sure way to insure you have unlocked the planet related to the quest - although this wasn't necessary in the past (you could not do the quest if you didn't have access to the planet and that was it) and it worked fine.

  • However, my point about requiring tennos to play several of the quests - including Natah - in order to advance through the map is still very valid IMO. With the new system, you can't skip the New Strange, and you can't play Hidden Messages before Second Dream. Why ? There is no good reason to this. As far as I know, no one used to complain that they were not forced to complete the quests.

  • But what if they don't feel ready to awake from the Dream yet ? What if their primary goal is to unlock the full system before this, collect more mods or craft specific weaps/frames, before fully immersing themselves in the lore ? Why is DE refusing them this right by locking them out of progression ?

  • I fully agree with your last paragraph, yet 1) In fact I "did not want" to do any of the requirements, simply because I had already done them and 2) my sentence was generic : we vets may have an issue with Sedna and TWW due to non-retroactive requirements, but newer players may have a problem with other quests tied to other junctions due to a feeling that have to go over a bunch of boring mini-tasks to enjoy them (whereas before, beating a boss once was enough to unlock the planet and advance, which then released the quest or factually allowed to play it).

  • Point being : the old system worked, the new one feels a lot more arbitrary in this regard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...