DE we NEED to have a serious talk about Riven mods

[Volinus7]

I'm impressed, DE managed to wreck the community 2 times in 3 months.

This may be the new record in online game industry history.

[LtZefar]

18 hours ago, GhostlightX said:

Too late to save it I already lost my entire Clan over this. Warframe became very officially PAY 2 WIN. Disappointed in the extreme.

Pay2win? Just now? Really?

You've been able to buy any Prime weapon in the game, you've been able to buy the most powerful mods in the game to your weapon and min max it out. How is this not Pay2Win? Also you can buy mods for Warframes too. So you can min max your Warframe as well.

So this is really nothing new. All these mods will let people do is tackle higher level content for a bit longer because they've already been able to kill everything else.

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

31 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

I'm impressed, DE managed to wreck the community 2 times in 3 months.

This may be the new record in online game industry history.

You would think after all the hate mail and even death threats from last month, they would do everything to avoid another riot

 

Maybe this is DE's revenge against us

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

15 minutes ago, LtZefar said:

Pay2win? Just now? Really?

You've been able to buy any Prime weapon in the game, you've been able to buy the most powerful mods in the game to your weapon and min max it out. How is this not Pay2Win? Also you can buy mods for Warframes too. So you can min max your Warframe as well.

So this is really nothing new. All these mods will let people do is tackle higher level content for a bit longer because they've already been able to kill everything else.

Also paid boosters give double resources and affinity which is a huge advantage over normal players

Arcane helmets and raid arcanes and arcane revives... the list goes on

[GhostlightX]

On ‎14‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 5:46 PM, Xzorn said:

 

Sorry but I have 40,000 plat and I've not paid cash for any of it. I can buy anything in the game I want with that so you're simply wrong.

Why don't you give the system for than 2 days to work before coming to premature conclusions about it.

People ranted in similar fashion about Lens and Focus progression when that system first came out.

40,000 platinum. Yeah you are the average player....  sheesh

I don't need 2 days to see the game-breaking problems in this system.

[ligonare]

I think i'm going to implement my incentive to buy plat using a direct reflection of the layers of RNG this system has.

Let's see; Sortie RNG, Weapon Reveal RNG, Stats RNG, Reroll Investment RNG, Kuva Spawn RNG...

<Calculating>

Ok, i got the number.

0, Zero, Zilch, 

零

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

23 minutes ago, ligonare said:

I think i'm going to implement my incentive to buy plat using a direct reflection of the layers of RNG this system has.

Let's see; Sortie RNG, Weapon Reveal RNG, Stats RNG, Reroll Investment RNG, Kuva Spawn RNG...

<Calculating>

Ok, i got the number.

0, Zero, Zilch, 

零

Are Riven mods still tradeable? If the answer is yes then the system incentivizes plat transactions. 

[Xzorn]

5 hours ago, GhostlightX said:

40,000 platinum. Yeah you are the average player....  sheesh

I don't need 2 days to see the game-breaking problems in this system.

 

I made that in the past year I've been back. A player who's played nonstop should have a great deal more. I've taken two long breaks from Warframe in the past.

What are these game-breaking problems cuz most I've seen are just opinion and speculation. We don't have enough information or a large enough pool to come to any real conclusions as to the results of this system.

Look at these guys talking about P2W when there's nothing in this game that's P2W. The entire fiasco is nothing more than a witch hunt right now. When we have more data the form a proper conclusion THEN we have a right to complain about RNG or progression speeds but anything right now is just speculation, salt or haste-fully formed opinions.

[Volinus7]

11 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

What are these game-breaking problems cuz most I've seen are just opinion and speculation. We don't have enough information or a large enough pool to come to any real conclusions as to the results of this system.

Mod system lost balance, whales got milked, investors got baited, many got scammed, people who hate RNG BiS bullsheet rioted. Yeah not conclusions but consequences of just adding it into the game.

 

Edited November 16, 2016 by Volinus7

[(PSN)Del-ProdigyT]

I don't even want to waste my time logging on now looking at the simulor mod pic.  I'm not even mad I knew this was going to happen your a S#&amp;&#036; company DE you have no idea how to approach consumers outside of relentless grinding tasks since you tanked the prime trading market with relics.  I know it was tanking I trade on it enough to see prices keep going down to a point of making your bottom line on plat sales even if player were to wallet warrior this game becomes cheap compared to many popular f2p mobas etc.  Now you throw out a true grind with no end in a game with no need for this kind of power creep to tackle the content

Your an idiot DE what you should have done is made primes more desirable to trade for more plat and start making really really good content that cost 400p to access.  Your just going to drive away players now and this game is crazy easy to drop compared other f2p games which at least have some kinda of real twitch community or competitive esports side of things.  I know my opinion is unpopular because telling players we need to actually spend something to support something is shocking to them.  Now your going to dry up real fast DE I hope your working on another game and its great because this move is extremely reckless.

Edited November 16, 2016 by (PS4)Del-ProdigyT

[(PSN)Del-ProdigyT]

opps

 

Edited November 16, 2016 by (PS4)Del-ProdigyT
double post

[Xzorn]

7 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Mod system lost balance, whales got milked, investors got baited, many got scammed, people who hate RNG BiS bullsheet rioted. Yeah not conclusions but consequences of just adding it into the game.

 

 

Mod system lost Balance: Speculation only, unless you've done numbers like this with every weapon with every viable Riven combination you cannot come to a real conclusion.

Spoiler

Braton Prime (Riven)
Riven 120% Status 120% Multi 70% Bane, Serration, Split, Heavy Cal, Primed Bane, 60/60x2, Vile  
35 Damage (21 Slash) 10% x2 Crit, 20% Status
Serration + Heavy Cal
35 * (1 + (1.65 + 1.65) = 150.5
Primed Bane + Riven Bane
150.5 * (1 + (0.7 + 0.55) = 338.625 (203.175 Slash @60%)
Elemental 60/60x2 + 90%
339.625 * 1.2 = 407.55 Corrosive
Status Chance 0.2 * (1 + ( 1.2 + 0.6 + 0.6) = 0.68 = 68%
Multishot 1 * (1+ ( 0.9 + 1.2) = 3.1
RoF 9.6 * 1.9 = 18.24

-Status Weight-
1354.5 Phys (812.7 Slash) 407.55 Corrosive = 1762.05
Status Trigger = 2.108
Status Trigger per Second = 38.44992
Slash Weight = 812.7 / 1762.05 = 0.4612 = 46.12%
Corrosive Weight = 407.55 / 1762.05 = 0.2313 = 21.13%
Avg Bleed Tick 338.625 * (1 + (1 - 2.0) * 0.1) = 372.4875
Avg Bleed per Proc = 372.4875 * 7 = 2,607.4125
Avg Corrosive Procs per Second = 38.44992 * 0.2113 = 8.1245
Avg Bleed Proc per Second = 38.44992 * 0.4612 = 17.733
Avg Bleed Damage per Second = 17.733 * 2607.4125 = 46,237.52

-Corrosive Vs 200 Bombard-
Corrosive Procs to Red-line > 8 log10 (26,859) = 35.432
Time to Red-line = 4.36 seconds

-DPS-
[(338 + 407.55) * 3.1)] * (1 + (1- 2.0) * 0.1) * 18.24
(745.55 * 3.1) * 1.1 * 18.24  = 46,372.017 Burst DPS
Estimated Burst DPS with Bleed
46,237 + 46,372.017 = 92,609.537

Braton Prime (Riven)
Riven 120% Status 120% Multi 70% Bane, Serration, Split, Heavy Cal, Primed Bane, 60/60x2, Vile  
35 Damage (21 Slash) 10% x2 Crit, 20% Status
Serration + Heavy Cal
35 * (1 + (1.65 + 1.65) = 150.5
Primed Bane + Riven Bane
150.5 * (1 + (0.7 + 0.55) = 338.625 (203.175 Slash @60%)
Elemental 60/60x2 + 90%
338.625 * 1.2 = 407.55 Corrosive
Status Chance 0.2 * (1 + ( 1.2 + 0.6 + 0.6) = 0.68 = 68%
Multishot 1 * (1+ ( 0.9 + 1.2) = 3.1
RoF 9.6 * 1.9 = 18.24

-Status Weight-
1354.5 Phys (812.7 Slash) 407.55 Corrosive = 1762.05
Status Trigger = 2.108
Status Trigger per Second = 38.44992
Slash Weight = 812.7 / 1762.05 = 0.4612 = 46.12%
Corrosive Weight = 407.55 / 1762.05 = 0.2313 = 21.13%
Avg Bleed Tick [338.625 * (1 + (1 - 2.0) * 0.1)] * 0.35 = 130.37
Avg Bleed per Proc = 130.37 *  7 = 912.59
Avg Corrosive Procs per Second = 38.44992 * 0.2113 = 8.1245
Avg Bleed Proc per Second = 38.44992 * 0.4612 = 17.733
Avg Bleed Damage per Second = 17.733 * 912.59 = 16,183.036

-Corrosive Vs 200 Bombard-
Corrosive Procs to Red-line > 8 log10 (26,859) = 35.432
Time to Red-line  35.432 / 8.1245 = 4.36 seconds

-DPS-
[(338 + 407.55) * 3.1)] * (1 + (1- 2.0) * 0.1) * 18.24
(745.55 * 3.1) * 1.1 * 18.24  = 46,372.017 Burst DPS
Estimated Burst DPS with Bleed
16,182.036 + 46,372.017 = 62,555.05

My personal speculation is that Riven mods helped to close the gap between underpowered and overpowered weapons. Which is what they were designed to do.

Whales got milked: I think we already covered the whale terminology. I can apply that term to ANY F2P system.

Investors got baited: what?

Many got scammed: Some got scammed and it's been fixed. Also I'd say only fools got scammed and you know what they say about a fool and their money. Anyone who's played this game any amount of time should know by now you don't buy anything from the player market first day or even first week. Stance mods come out for 100p first day and drop to worthless values a week later.

People who hate BiS RNG:  An opinion based conclusion. I don't mind it at all. It gives me something long term to invest my time in. A conclusion for a loot based system founded on opinion is not a real one in my view. A real conclusion requires some numbers when involving a loot system. You can say it feels bad, that's fine but I don't fully share that opinion. There is also a lot of variation to discredit the BiS term in this system due to enemy level scaling. What works at one level range might not at the next, so what's BiS really? Preference.

 

[GhostlightX]

39 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

What are these game-breaking problems cuz most I've seen are just opinion and speculation. We don't have enough information or a large enough pool to come to any real conclusions as to the results of this system.

Yes it is speculation, but it is informed speculation. Many people have experienced loot systems like this (total RNG + most drops garbage + divides the player base into haves and have nots, purely on a die roll) in other games and have seen their effect. It's never good. In fact it is a potential game killer.

[Volinus7]

35 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

"Mod system balance" I didn't talk about whether riven close the gap or not, I talked about balance between mods.

What's the point of mandatory mods if they release new more powerful mandatory mods and those new mods have better stats/capacity&slot which eclipse the previous ones.

What will happen if there're Riven MKII, Riven EX, Riven Rare, Riven Unique, Riven Legendary and so on.... to make previous mods obsolete is the wrong move in the first place.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Volinus7

[Xzorn]

8 minutes ago, GhostlightX said:

Yes it is speculation, but it is informed speculation. Many people have experienced loot systems like this (total RNG + most drops garbage + divides the player base into haves and have nots, purely on a die roll) in other games and have seen their effect. It's never good. In fact it is a potential game killer.

 

If it were informed speculation it would then include Diablo1 & 2 right? Two games that happen to be the top action RPGs in gaming history?

I have a feeling most would try and relate this to Diablo3 in which RNG was not the primary reason people had problems with the game. The problem was the game was purposely skewed against your progress in many ways to force you into feeling hopeless in progression beyond spending money. Most player could not progress past Inferno Act2 because the enemies were purposely scaled beyond any reasonable level of gear. It was an obvious cash grab system and what's even more funny about it is that players paid them again for an expansion to fix it.

This system is not forcing against you in any way. It's not limiting your game play like Diablo3, It's just RNG like any other.

One thing I can agree with is that this has divided the player base. IMO it's between the "I want it now" group and the "I want long term progression" group. Given the "I want it now" group has succeeded in making this game a quick grind to boredom in the past, I have a feeling it won't be long before I resort to stacking plat as progression again. ie why I have 40k..... there's not much else in terms of progression for me to do. I simply find what's fun + plat and that's all I can hope for in this game.

[Xzorn]

17 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

What's the point of mandatory mods if they release new more powerful mandatory mods and those new mods have better stats/capacity&slot which eclipse the previous ones.

What will happen if there're Riven MKII, Riven EX, Riven Rare, Riven Unique, Riven Legendary and so on.... to make previous mods obsolete is the wrong move in the first place.

The RIven mods don't make any other mods obsolete though. They take up a slot and make you ditch one but there will always be "mandatory mods" because there will always be an idea setup for a situation. The only one they can get rid of without consequence is Serration/Hornet/Pressure Point. Getting rid of multishot is a huge problem for status rates across the board as well as RoF based DPS compared to damage per shot imbalance in regards to mag size and reload time and things like Heavy Cal have already been replaceable by Primed Bane.

Riven mods might be considered mandatory mods but they're highly specialize ones. I might want +%Damage +%crit +%crit damage for a weapon with CPX4 but I might want +%status +%multishot +% Bane for lvl 80-240 Grineer with that same weapon. There will always be a RIven taking up a slot but it can do a lot of different things and thus fill different purpose which is a helluva lot better than what we've had in the past.

They just need to ditch that 15 cap. It's silly.

[Volinus7]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

The RIven mods don't make any other mods obsolete though. They take up a slot and make you ditch one but there will always be "mandatory mods" because there will always be an idea setup for a situation. The only one they can get rid of without consequence is Serration/Hornet/Pressure Point. Getting rid of multishot is a huge problem for status rates across the board as well as RoF based DPS compared to damage per shot imbalance in regards to mag size and reload time and things like Heavy Cal have already been replaceable by Primed Bane.

Riven mods might be considered mandatory mods but they're highly specialize ones. I might want +%Damage +%crit +%crit damage for a weapon with CPX4 but I might want +%status +%multishot +% Bane for lvl 80-240 Grineer with that same weapon. There will always be a RIven taking up a slot but it can do a lot of different things and thus fill different purpose which is a helluva lot better than what we've had in the past.

They just need to ditch that 15 cap. It's silly.

Please don't contradict yourself[again]

IPS common>IPS rare and Prime dmg mods are bad enough. Force ppl to revise builds and forma more again and again with no end??

What's next? New dmg mods with *2 dmg but have new polarity?

 

[Xzorn]

9 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Please don't contradict yourself[again]

IPS common>IPS rare and Prime dmg mods are bad enough. Force ppl to revise builds and forma more again and again with no end??

What's next? New dmg mods with *2 dmg but have new polarity?

 

 

I'm not contradicting myself nor have I ever been. You're simply unable to understand what I'm trying to explain and I'm done talking to you when all you can resort to as a counter argument is false accusations that I'm contradicting myself when I'm not.

You have no argument outside speculation and "feelings" like the rest of the community barking about RIven mods. It's nothing more than a Witch hunt by greedy players who want instant results in a F2P game without paying for it.

I have no real stake in the situation when it comes down to it. I would prefer long term genuine progressing but if they make it easier then I'll simply sell my extra progression to other players sooner......  like I always have.

Plat = Time = Progression. It's all the same in the end. One just "feels" better and it's the one some players are trying to make shorter. Grats.

P,S I haven't had to revise any builds due to Primed mods. I simply added a forma. But then again I do things correctly.

[Volinus7]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

 

I'm not contradicting myself nor have I ever been. You're simply unable to understand what I'm trying to explain and I'm done talking to you when all you can resort to as a counter argument is false accusations that I'm contradicting myself when I'm not.

You have no argument outside speculation and "feelings" like the rest of the community barking about RIven mods. It's nothing more than a Witch hunt by greedy players who want instant results in a F2P game without paying for it.

I have no real stake in the situation when it comes down to it. I would prefer long term genuine progressing but if they make it easier then I'll simply sell my extra progression to other players sooner......  like I always have.

Plat = Time = Progression. It's all the same in the end. One just "feels" better and it's the one some players are trying to make shorter. Grats.

P,S I haven't had to revise any builds due to Primed mods. I simply added a forma. But then again I do things correctly.

We talked about mods/stats/capacity/slot/polarity no? Which part of it involved "instant results"?

"I simply added a forma." 

You even agreed with me.... don't be tsundere pls.

 

I know you want to say something like this "Forcing people to forma more and more is ok, it's a F2P game you have to support it"

However I look at mod system as a balanced game like chess. Maybe that's why no one monetizes chess by giving more powerful pieces.....it will look like a joke. 

I admit here. It's my own delusion, I try to think that DE is a fair company that doesn't abuse powercreep to milk people. 

Back when I still bought a lot of plats, I thought WF will be competitive and balanced. It will rival those MOBA, FPS and become E-sport. Investing time and money in this game was the right choice. Skills developed by playing this game will have value.

Now? I just pretend that I still haven't given up on DE. Maybe I should just stop.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Volinus7

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

 

I'm not contradicting myself nor have I ever been. You're simply unable to understand what I'm trying to explain and I'm done talking to you when all you can resort to as a counter argument is false accusations that I'm contradicting myself when I'm not.

You have no argument outside speculation and "feelings" like the rest of the community barking about RIven mods. It's nothing more than a Witch hunt by greedy players who want instant results in a F2P game without paying for it.

I have no real stake in the situation when it comes down to it. I would prefer long term genuine progressing but if they make it easier then I'll simply sell my extra progression to other players sooner......  like I always have.

Plat = Time = Progression. It's all the same in the end. One just "feels" better and it's the one some players are trying to make shorter. Grats.

P,S I haven't had to revise any builds due to Primed mods. I simply added a forma. But then again I do things correctly.

Why are you still here? And how can you call others greedy?

If you disagree with the MAJORITY of our community and actually AGREE with DE's broken and unfair design choices, why waste time here when you could be in game "earning" another "40,000 plat"? - All that plat of course from the people that actually have jobs to support themselves, and the games development with their purchases, and thus are infinitely more qualified and invested to share their feedback, than hypocritical free2play scammers that DO NOT put their money where their lying mouths are.

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

3 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Are Riven mods still tradeable? If the answer is yes then the system incentivizes plat transactions. 

Yes they are still tradable and yes they are still selling for insane amounts of plat. 

 

DE has no intention of stopping that cash flow.

 

Riven mods are their new golden goose. Prime goose if you will.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 minute ago, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

Yes they are still tradable and yes they are still selling for insane amounts of plat. 

I know, it was a rhetorical question to make a point.

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

2 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

"Mod system balance" I didn't talk about whether riven close the gap or not, I talked about balance between mods.

What's the point of mandatory mods if they release new more powerful mandatory mods and those new mods have better stats/capacity&slot which eclipse the previous ones.

What will happen if there're Riven MKII, Riven EX, Riven Rare, Riven Unique, Riven Legendary and so on.... to make previous mods obsolete is the wrong move in the first place.

Considering the teaser site reveal for Riven mods hinting "this is just the start" and DE Rebbecca's Dev workshop,

Its very obvious we will be getting Riven mods for secondaries, melees, and eventually warframes themselves

DE may expand upon this by creating more RNG stat gear. Imagine if your newly crafted weapons and frames had random stats.

This nightmare is just getting started folks, dont stop 2nd dreaming now.

[Floppinger]

On 14.11.2016 at 0:07 AM, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

How can DE do anything to fix these mods now that heavy plat deals have been made? If they were account locked to begin with, DE couldve easily tweaked them or offered legendary cores. Now I fear its way too late. DE has broken warframe PVE and trading so badly with these mods. When harder content arrives they will be a necessity that many players simply wont have, and will suffer because of it.

Why would that be an issue? If people ask ridiculous prices and others are willing to pay them, that´s their problem.

[zombi3h3art]

Riven mods are messing up, my game just reminded me that i was doing good on riven mod progress and if i extract it would be good, when i leave the mission i got nothing. there was no error on my part and the riven was completed but when i reenterd my liset the riven mod gave me nothing.