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Read this before suggesting a rework.


brainjelly2g0
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If I had a penny for every time I saw a "Rework" that wanted to completely change a Warframe, I'd have like, $2. If you plan on suggesting a rework for Banshee, and it changes 3 of her abilities to completely new ones, it sounds like you want a completely different Warframe. If on the off-chance DE took your advice, then buttloads of Banshee players would be pissed.

There are three things I hope you do before suggesting a Rework.

1. Play the Warframe. More often than not, a Limbo rework will be made by someone who sold the dapper bastard. If you really want to change a Warframe, my advice to you is to first get to know the Frame. Limbo is not ideal for survivals, but if you take him to a Defense(Sortie or not) he is godlike. Similarly, bringing Wukong to a Rescue doesn't play at all to his strengths. Every Warframe has good traits and bad traits, and not a single one is ideal for everywhere.

2. Consider their playstyle. Limbo doesn't just run into a room and Banish everyone inside of it. That's how you get killed. He's all about determining which foes you actually want to fight, such as singling out that Bombard or Ancient to get a face full of Tigris. If you want to change a frame, make sure you preserve the way it functions. Banshee should not be able to tank, because her survival is based on mobility, and intelligence, rather than 4500 health with 400 armor.

3. Do not completely scrap abilities. If you took away Nyx's Psychic Bolts, it'd be removing something from the frame(no matter how useless). Instead, consider how that ability could be made better. Maybe Rift Surge affects allies. Maybe Psychic Bolts has a guaranteed knockdown. Maybe Silence's stun should be based on Duration. Every ability has a niche they could fill, and while no frame is perfect, there are some that have very varied kits. Ivara, if you don't mind some patience, can do pretty much any mission on her own. However, it is going to take longer, and cost lots of energy. Or Loki, who struggles against infested, due to their auras and lack of weaponry. Wukong is excellent for solo play, but he doesn't bring anything to a squad. Frost has crowd control and defense coming out of his &#!, but he misses on some offensive power. You could remove some of a frame's powers to fill in their holes, but ultimately, no frame is perfect.

Hope this helped. Odds are, within ten minutes of this being posted, someones going to suggest a Limbo Rework that really bothers me. Thanks for reading!

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I kind of disagree with this in a way. Warframe are usually built off a theme. If new powers are suggested for said theme then there should be no problem with considering it if it fits and makes the frame more fun. Take Excal one of his original abilities was completely removed and he got a brand new one. Or take Limbo who litterally has three powers that truly only need to be one, that in turn would open him up for more interesting powers that still use his theme. Rework suggestions are perfectly fine as long as the suggested reworks still fit into the frames theme. Now a bad rework suggestion would be like to ask to remove Mesas 4th and replace it with an ability that gives her swords. Why? Becasue that dosnt fit her theme. 

Catch my drift.

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14 hours ago, brainjelly2g0 said:

If I had a penny for every time I saw a "Rework" that wanted to completely change a Warframe, I'd have like, $2. If you plan on suggesting a rework for Banshee, and it changes 3 of her abilities to completely new ones, it sounds like you want a completely different Warframe. If on the off-chance DE took your advice, then buttloads of Banshee players would be pissed.

There are three things I hope you do before suggesting a Rework.

1. Play the Warframe. [...]. Every Warframe has good traits and bad traits, and not a single one is ideal for everywhere.

2. Consider their playstyle. [...]

3. Do not completely scrap abilities. [...]

Hope this helped. Odds are, within ten minutes of this being posted, someones going to suggest a Limbo Rework that really bothers me. Thanks for reading!

  1. True. Mostly. People tend to find issues with point number 2.
  2. Most frames have more than one viable play-style. I don't know about limbo because I've never played him. For Zephyr people love to ignore the dive-bomb and tornado builds in favor of turbulence. Expanding the number of ways to play and making builds more "viable" or fun is the key to a good rework.
  3. I might have to argue with you on this one. At what point is it considered ability scrapping? Ember has a completely different second ability from when she started and World used on Fire used to be like a timed version of Nezha's fire walker. Removing abilities is fine, as long as whatever replaces them fits the theme and enhances the play-styles available to players.

 

Edited by Karav
Grammar issues causing lack of clarity
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While the General logic behind this is rock-solid, and I completely agree with, there is one point I am highly in contention with.

And that is that while some people may seem ignorant for wanting to change a frame into a completely new one, it may come down more to wanting to change how the Theme was used.

 

An example of this is my own reaction to Atlas.

When I think of a stone-elemental, or a rock-warrior, etc, I invariably think of an immensely durable, terribly slow character.

When I think of a Brawler, punch-related character, I usually only think of ways to better expand on ways the character can punch (Uppercuts, gut-punch, haymakers, etc.)

Thus, I expected Rock-Brawler Atlas to have some means of having lots of varied punching, lots of defensive stats and powers, and in return have to sacrifice a large amount of Move-speed/Attack-speed.

So for Atlas's 3 and 4 abilities to only be tangentially tied to either theme, have his 3 be the only ability that really slows him down, have his punching be terribly fast-paced and unvaried, as well as his general lack of the inherent "immense durability" (Having a high amount of armor, but no other high defenses, and no means of buffing those defenses up like warcry or ironskin), I am left with the feeling that the themes I loved the most have been put to waste.

 

 

Another is the general problem with Oberon: He is proclaimed to be a paladin. But not as the WoW (Tank + Healer) Paladin that many have come to know, but instead as the D&D (Caster/Warrior + Healer) paladin, with a significantly different playstyle and role.

In addition to this, he is also heavily druid-themed in aesthetic, so many players expect him to be related to that in some regard.

 

 

The problem I'm trying to bring light to is that a theme can be used in a way that does not satisfy all of the players who were looking forward to it; And while this is BOUND to happen (Can't please everybody), It means that the theme is doomed to never be used again, and the players who were disappointed are forced to either move on or go to the forums to complain.

 DE has yet to release a frame with the same theme as another (Nezha is not a fire-frame, as some think. Bard-frame is cutting it close to banshee's theme, but the two are only partially related).

 

So, to reiterate, I feel that while you are giving a good general guideline to reworks, I'd like to establish that there is an underlying problem with the matter.

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I would just like to make it clear that in my view, the vision for a rework should be to enhance the quality of existing moves. To ensure they maintain their current functionality, however offering new attributes to further their utility and effectiveness in game.

  That is the first line in my Zephyr Rework thread. 

I find it absolutely frustrating to see players demand reworks for frames that they claim are terrible when I have had no issue developing a build for every frame that makes them at least sortie 3 worthy. 

Each frame has strengths and weaknesses and it's important to play them to each circumstance. It's inevitable that some will be stronger than others but one frames strength does not reflect the viability of another.

With that being said, keep in mind that while you think one frame needs a rework, another person has taken the time to develop a mastery of the skills and attributes offered. Finding purpose in a niche is part of what makes Warframe great.

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IMO if someone takes a warframe's theme and put it on overdrive and provide a rework, even with different skills, doesn't mean that this warframe should be a completely new one. A good rework should focus on a warframe's uniqueness, identity and core idea (In case of limbo his rift mechanism) and build around it, in different ways. That's what a rework is supposed to be a RE-WORK. Most if not all limbo reworks of limbo in the forums keep the rift mechanism and get rid of all the other abilities or rework them in a way they think it's fun, so it's safe to say that most of the warframe community doesn't find his abilities appealing and thus they want them changed. The reworks aren't only a brainstorm of possible reworks but also a place for DE to think that "Hey, we did something wrong here let's revise it". If we were not providing any feedback then DE, or any other developer for that matter, wouldn't know what we like or what we despise. On the end line, though, DE has the final word.

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Scrapping an ability isn't always a bad thing, but only in the case of a redundancy. Limbo's 1st and 2nd ability, for example, are pretty redundant given new mechanics that we have implemented into the game.

Otherwise, I almost fully agree. As a person who mains Oberon, I know the pain of seeing everyone and their brother post half baked rework ideas that completely change the frame into something that isn't Oberon.

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I agree with this entirely and want to make this a sticky post.

A note to anyone reading through, however, that thinks that scrapping abilities can be good, I offer this: Yes it can be good, but DE have only scrapped on ability entirely in the history of their reworks to frames. That ability was Super Jump, and I still think that something could have been done with that one to make it useful...

Everything else in the game that's been reworked, DE have kept the core of that ability and then added, subtracted or rebalanced the in-game effect of it. For example, the most drastically changed ability is Ember's Overheat changing to Accelerant, but the offensive buff to fire damage has always been in effect, and the changes from update 7 onwards made Overheat less and less of a defensive buff, and more and more an offensive buff, until on her major rework it became a pure offensive buff with a CC stun and the name was changed to reflect that.

The Magnetise/Shield Polarise changes haven't really changed what the abilities do, just how they do them and how effectively they do them, with additions to them that are (in magnetise's case) very welcome.

Saryn's abilities are all essentially the same abilities, but they've been mechanically overhauled to make them hit enemies in a far more effective way, pulling all the status chances out of the abilities to have massive status proc damage and even make her 4 more damaging (if combined correctly) than it was previously.

RenovaKunumaru up there has a great thread going on for Zephyr, in which we've been discussing for months the idea for mechanically fixing, and then adding to, her abilities in the way that would keep her casts exactly the same, but be as effective in what they do as any other ability in the game. No poncing around trying to make her fly like Titania, just fix the abilities she has now, and maybe add to them, in order to buff those same abilities up to make them all do what they say on the label, every time, at every level of play.

So even if you do think that removing an ability and replacing it with something new can work, which you'd be right because DE have done that in the past... once... the overwhelming majority of changes that DE have made have kept the existing abilities and worked over what they do, not what they are.

Always keep that in mind when working through a rework, because we aren't the ones that will actually make and implement the changes, it's always going to be DE.

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