Something needs to be done about rivens as soon as possible

[AdunSaveMe]

They're unbelievably unhealthy for the game. It's not just the RNG stacked on RNG stacked on more RNG, it's the ridiculous, absolutely obscene stat combinations people are getting. A lot of these are going to start invalidating current content, which means more will have to be made that requires (or invalidates) those rivens, and then what do we get? Content that requires RNG squared to be doable, and people suffering because they don't have these mandatory mods?

They need capped stats (why are some people getting an extra 130% damage AND crit on already powerful weapons, like the Simulor, when other people are getting +zoom, + status and -100% damage on theirs?). They need guaranteed baseline rolls (no more wyrm mods with +zoom). Rerolling cost increases need to go. They need to show how many times they've been rerolled. They need to be more balanced. They need to be more varied. The entire modding system is built on the idea that everyone can basically use the same mods to their own personal tastes, and this throws that out the window. The problem of mandatory mods is compounded even further. They're power creep personified, with four layers of RNG stacked on top. They don't motivate people to use old weapons, since it's random which one you get it for, and a soma (an already powerful weapon) gets the same boost that a miter does, so they're STILL not on the same level. There has always been some baseline to power. There were crits, and mod drops were random, but there was always a baseline. But not anymore. If you're lucky, you'll get a gamebreaking mod. If you're not, you get something entirely worthless.

They need to have trading disabled, or better yet, to be disabled entirely, until they're reworked. They are unbelievably toxic for this game and have so many problems it isn't funny. It was an interesting idea, but to just thrust it into the game and into sorties, with trading enabled, with full costs, acting like it's a final version of something that clearly needs a tremendous amount of work, was a huge mistake. It needs to be corrected before it's too late.

What happens now? Keep them in the game, and future content will NEED to be balanced around them or they will invalidate everything. In the least dramatic doom-&-gloom way possible, this will ruin the game. Something needs to be done about them ASAP. Disable them and give people endo or something, whatever, just don't keep them in their current state. Since they were added with trading enabled people have already spent and gained obscene amounts of plat from these, and now anything you do, anything at all, will upset those people. But it's still better than doing nothing.

This isn't endgame. This doesn't solve any problems with scaling, or balance, or weapon viability. It's its own set of new problems. This is not extra content or more engaging gameplay. It's just a grind for an extremely unbalanced mechanic. It is toxic, there's no other word for it.

Edited November 14, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[Lankander]

All of the yes

[artemisfortune]

The only thing wrong with Riven mods is it doesn't show how many times it's been rerolled and arguably some of the requirements are too tough.

With the exception of rerolls not being shown, all of the problems you've presented are hypothetical, and we shouldn't deal in hypotheticals. These mods aren't mandatory, they're useful, not required.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Haldos
Moderated post.

[-skimmer-]

as if we have enemies we cant one shot with what we already have...

Come on, top tier weapons dont need it and low tier weapons are suddenly viable. Whats not to like?

They do need to show how many times they have been rerolled though...I agree that scammers have a field day with them right now.

[JefPlays]

On the contrary, the fact that previously everyone had access to exactly the same mods is exactly what led to the whole problem of mandatory mods and standard builds in the first place.

With this system, no two players are ever guaranteed to have the exact same mods. That makes things infinitely more interesting, and it makes your weapon builds feel more like "your" weapon builds.

[GrimAtrament]

Just now, Jeffrey94 said:

On the contrary, the fact that previously everyone had access to exactly the same mods is exactly what led to the whole problem of mandatory mods and standard builds in the first place.

With this system, no two players are ever guaranteed to have the exact same mods. That makes things infinitely more interesting, and it makes your weapon builds feel more like "your" weapon builds.

^ this finaly somthing that removes the cookie cutter builds we have needed somthing like this for a while now

[notlamprey]

I've agreed on this before, and I still do.

Someone reminded me earlier that "random mods" has been tried before, pre-Update 7, and it was a total mess then as well.

I don't really have anything to add, as I think you've pretty well summed it up in the same way I might have. There are games built around this type of progression system, and the good ones know better than to let the randomness run riot as it currently is with Riven Mods. Historically, the games with the least-constrained random loot rolls do most poorly over time, as the player base becomes stratified and shrinks.

That is my current fear for Warframe if Riven Mods are not given a serious overhaul (or outright removed until one can be effected).

We need to keep hammering this point home. The folks in favor of the current system are ignoring some very serious dangers, as well as a history full of games that have tried this and stumbled badly - sometimes, never to recover.

[AdunSaveMe]

 

On 11/13/2016 at 10:37 PM, Jeffrey94 said:

On the contrary, the fact that previously everyone had access to exactly the same mods is exactly what led to the whole problem of mandatory mods and standard builds in the first place.

With this system, no two players are ever guaranteed to have the exact same mods. That makes things infinitely more interesting, and it makes your weapon builds feel more like "your" weapon builds.

The problem of mandatory mods wasn't because mods were all the same, it was simply because of how some of them were designed, like Serration.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Haldos
Removed hidden post in quote.

[notlamprey]

4 minutes ago, Jeffrey94 said:

On the contrary, the fact that previously everyone had access to exactly the same mods is exactly what led to the whole problem of mandatory mods and standard builds in the first place.

With this system, no two players are ever guaranteed to have the exact same mods. That makes things infinitely more interesting, and it makes your weapon builds feel more like "your" weapon builds.

Gotta disagree here, because the "good" Riven Mods are already just as "mandatory" as any previous mods ever were.

They are objectively the "best," and thus "mandatory." The only way to avoid "mandatory" is to build a robust system of incomparable choices, and not to build a loot lottery.

Players need choices that all feel useful, ideally with none of them eclipsing the others so far as to be "objectively best." At present, Riven Mods do not give us that.

[ograzzt]

1 minute ago, AdunSaveMe said:

The problem of mandatory mods wasn't because mods were all the same, it was simply because of how some of them were designed, like Serration.

Ironically best riven mods can have both serration and multishot mods. And even something else on top of that. 

[AdunSaveMe]

10 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

^ this finaly somthing that removes the cookie cutter builds we have needed somthing like this for a while now

The solution to cookie cutter builds would be making mods more equal to each other. This isn't the solution to that problem.

In fact, it probably makes it worse, now that you'll always have you 130% crit and 100% damage mod with no drawbacks.

[FieserMoep]

14 hours ago, JSharpie said:

 

@AdunSaveMe Saying they need changes is saying you know what needs or doesn't need to be done, and you don't. You have an opinion and a prediction with very little factual information to back up your claims other than "This will be bad because it's a power creep and RNG and now it'll be a meta :(" You know none of that, you can't infer any of that, and it seems more like you want them gone because you can't get them all yourself.

Seriously?

To sum these claims up:

Is it power creep? It is, it the potentially most powerful mod ever in warframe. Check.

Is it RNG? It is. Is that good in a game where RNG was never aspect of a certain area? It is, because neither is the game designed for that, nor was it ever part of what the game portrayed outwards. It fundamentally changed itemization. Check.

Will it be Meta? Heck, seems everyone is trying to get some and it WILL grant benefits. Check.

Edited November 14, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
comment edited by moderator

[GrimAtrament]

what i find funny is that meny complain about the armor scaling and every time de does something that helps it people bash on it

[artemisfortune]

1 minute ago, AdunSaveMe said:

So now we're doing personal assumptions? That's cool, dude.

Every bit of feedback is an opinion. This is my observation. You haven't provided an argument, you've just repeated "you're wrong".

Waiting to see if there are repercussions isn't exactly the best idea. The aim is to do your best not to reach that point. We have enough information about the system and its workings to get an idea of what the potential problems could be, and what the problems CURRENTLY ARE. 

It doesn't matter what might be coming, or what might be planned. Currently, right now, in their current state, they are flawed, and if they remain this way they will be worse. If they're going to be different, they shouldn't be in the game until that happens.

The truth behind it all is they probably aren't going to be different.

I don't like repeating things that have already been said in this thread, but I guess I will. These mods provide diversity, interesting new builds. Sure it's based on luck, but if it wasn't, it wouldn't be interesting.

Say you could combine mods, or determine which weapon the mod is for, everyone would still have the same build and the same meta. Now we are given a chance to take what we get and see what we can spin off of it. Trading is a problem right now, but not a huge one, and it's the buyers fault if he is "scammed". I use that word loosely because it's not really scamming.

RNG is not a bad thing, and saying that it is is naive. You have a chance at getting a mod that potentially shakes your current build. Given their mod cost I find that to be wonderful. Especially since you can't fit a bunch of them on one weapon, and a lot of these at max rank won't fit perfectly even with 8 forma. It gives something to play for, something to tinker with, and something new and interesting and exciting. It's nice to see what you'll get, and even if you don't get what you want they aren't entirely useless (the sentinel ones are weird, I'll give you that). These are a good thing, something for old players to hunt for and new players to strive for. Putting them on already overpowered builds doesn't yield much. Getting new ones that shake up your build are what should be exciting, instead of focusing on the power creep (that isn't really there, because the weapons already one shot a vast majority of the content and making them deal more damage won't make them one shot faster) focus on the potential, the new life it breathes into old weapons, the new ideas, the new functions, the removal of "mandatory" mods and the addition of possibilities.

[AdunSaveMe]

5 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

what i find funny is that meny complain about the armor scaling and every time de does something that helps it people bash on it

How does this help? This doesn't fix armour scaling. It artificially increases the level of enemies that some people can kill. 

Scaling is still an issue.

[StabbyTentacles]

10 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

The solution to cookie cutter builds would be making mods more equal to each other. This isn't the solution to that problem.

In fact, it probably makes it worse, now that you'll always have you 130% crit and 100% damage mod with no drawbacks.

If you cant understand this, then you can't comment further, its a fact like the Op (Opening post) it's mindless stupid design.

If you can't understand this. Think of it as an Avengers movie, only everybodies Superman, but the guy without the Riven mod is Hawkeye.

Edited November 14, 2016 by StabbyTentacles

[AdunSaveMe]

4 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

the removal of "mandatory" mods and the addition of possibilities.

On this, specifically, since it's being brought up a lot: the idea behind removing mandatory mods originally was that people shouldn't feel like they NEED to have a specific mod on. Things like Serration. You shouldn't feel like you are FORCED to have serration on just to make your weapon viable. On top of that, the mods were simply bland. Now:

Tell me how this solves that problem.

Edited November 14, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[CarrotSalad]

The mods should'nt be stackable on identicle stat mods. If you get a riven mod with Dmg + critical chance, Then equipping that riven mod will prevent you equipping serration and point strike.

Out of curiosity can we stack more than 1 riven mod on each weapon?

[artemisfortune]

1 minute ago, AdunSaveMe said:

On this, specifically: the idea behind removing mandatory mods originally was that people shouldn't feel like they NEED to have a specific mod on. Things like Serration. You shouldn't feel like you are FORCED to have serration on just to make your weapon viable.

Tell me how this solves that problem.

Then you would have every weapon operate the same with mods only sidegrading them? Where is the sense of progression in that?

[FieserMoep]

4 minutes ago, CarrotSalad said:

Out of curiosity can we stack more than 1 riven mod on each weapon?

Nope.

[AdunSaveMe]

5 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

Then you would have every weapon operate the same with mods only sidegrading them? Where is the sense of progression in that?

The progression would be in upgrading those mods, making them suit your play style (like they're meant to), with things like %damage being baked into the weapon. Progression would come from levelling, formae, new builds, things like that. Where's the sense of progression in slapping a maxed serration on everything, aside from the fact that you have to max it out?

This is progression, is it? This is the solution to mandatory mods? I don't think so. This is serration ramped up to eleven. The only progression is in getting lucky. There is no progression past this point, either, except rerolling and maybe getting luckier.

Edited November 14, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[artemisfortune]

1 minute ago, AdunSaveMe said:

The progression would be in upgrading those mods, making them suit your play style (like they're meant to), with things like %damage being baked into the weapon. Progression would come from levelling, formae, new builds, things like that. Where's the sense of progression in slapping a maxed serration on everything, aside from the fact that you have to max it out?

This is progression, is it? This is the solution to mandatory mods? I don't think so.

If you grind to test your luck or pay to test your luck for that mod, or just get lucky and get it early, is that a problem? It makes that one weapon incredibly powerful. I have no problem with it. You can't slap it on everything, and it takes up a slot in your build at a minimum of 9 spaces. I don't see the problem. You can now deal more damage should you decide to bring that gun to higher level enemies. It doesn't really shake the foundation of the game, because you can still deal more than enough damage without it.

[AdunSaveMe]

4 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

If you grind to test your luck or pay to test your luck for that mod, or just get lucky and get it early, is that a problem? It makes that one weapon incredibly powerful. I have no problem with it. You can't slap it on everything, and it takes up a slot in your build at a minimum of 9 spaces. I don't see the problem. You can now deal more damage should you decide to bring that gun to higher level enemies. It doesn't really shake the foundation of the game, because you can still deal more than enough damage without it.

Imagine if every gun in the game did 1 damage (enemy health scaled accordingly), then a weapon was added that did one thousand damage. Game has to be balanced around that weapon. That weapon becomes mandatory.

"You can play without it" doesn't hold up as a point on balance. You can play the game with no mods and nothing but an unmodded obex, that doesn't mean the game isn't balanced around you being more powerful.

There's no real progression up to that point, either. Rerolling isn't guaranteed, it's just more rolls in the hopes you'll be lucky. That isn't progression, especially not with increasing costs. Especially not in a game like this. It works in games built off and around RNG stats, like Diablo 3. Not here.

And if the game IS balanced around these (emphasis on IF as well, don't get me wrong on that), it leaves everyone behind. These become the new mandatory mods, if they aren't already, not to mention what it would do to weapon balancing itself, how much it would invalidate and whether or not levels of difficulty would have to be readjusted (raids, sorties etc.) and then everyone is affected. Everyone is affected hugely because sometimes people get lucky with a random mod with random stats with a random weapon and get an obscene spike in power.

If the game ISN'T rebalanced to accomodate these much higher levels of power, so much of it is invalidated. They still become mandatory. It still makes a huge mess of the whole deal. It's lose-lose.

Edited November 14, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[DawnThade]

I feel like the more reasonable people who dislike this system seem to dislike it because it does not help in their out cry for more challenge in warframes' gameplay. Once you get one of the powerful mods for a weapon you like, it just continues to one shot enemies(not challenging).

Edited November 14, 2016 by DawnThade

[artemisfortune]

1 minute ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Imagine if every gun in the game did 1 damage (enemy health scaled accordingly), then a weapon was added that did one thousand damage. Game has to be balanced around that weapon. That weapon becomes mandatory.

"You can play without it" doesn't hold up as a point on balance. You can play the game with no mods and nothing but an unmodded obex, that doesn't mean the game isn't balanced around you being more powerful.

And if the game IS balanced around these (emphasis on IF as well), it leaves everyone behind. These become the new mandatory mods, if they aren't already, not to mention what it would do to weapon balancing itself, how much it would invalidate and whether or not levels of difficulty would have to be readjusted (raids, sorties etc.) and then everyone is affected. Everyone is affected hugely because sometimes people get lucky with a random mod with random stats with a random weapon and get an obscene spike in power.

There's no real progression up to that point, either. Rerolling isn't guaranteed, it's just more rolls in the hopes you'll be lucky. That isn't progression, especially not with increasing costs. Especially not in a game like this. It works in games built off and around RNG stats, like Diablo 3. Not here.

They're combining mandatory mods so you can remove them in place of other things. That's what I'm excited about. Say you get exactly the same on for the soma as you linked. No longer do you really need crit mods unless you want them, maybe just crit damage. That opens up space for new possibilities. More ammo, more status, fire rate magazine siza, zoom, etc. It opens up space for rarely used mods. Instead of seeing it as people only using it in conjunction with damage mods already, see it as a way to open up for new ones. Using them in conjunction won't help you, it'll just let you kill slightly stronger enemies. Using them on weapons with bad ammo economy will allow you to free up space to put new validity in them. That isn't the only place they would help either.