Launcher Rebalancing; the Zarr proves that not even uncontrollable explosive ordnance is an excuse for a lack of selfdamage risk for AOE reward.

[painterman]

7 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

enemy scaling is absurd

This is my bane, it always been, and probably always be this way. Until this is fixed, i refuse to impose some kind of balance outside pvp, because its absurd. The other way around is 4CP/armor striping things, were most weapons are just comparable, and only a few of then are still useles.

 

17 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Could be changed to fire a "projectile" that creates the singularity on the surface it makes contact with.

I dont want to enter in this discusion because i dont know how to bring it dow to were it should be, without altering the weapon itself too much, still missing the confetti canon(khom), but it was a necesary change.

 

I know that the tonkor is a bit absurd in its current state, but i dont think it should be nerfed, instead buff other launchers up to level(inlcuding secondaris). Even overpowered as it is i dindt see anyone use it since more than 6 monts, that should mean something.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

On 11/14/2016 at 8:24 AM, SupremeDutchGamer said:

the tonkor im quite alright with. but the simulor i just cant stand

Agreed. At least you have to aim the tonkor and things like the amprex. The simulor requires zero skill to use.

[SDGDen]

21 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Agreed. At least you have to aim the tonkor and things like the amprex. The simulor requires zero skill to use.

it actualy does. you have to have the all powerfull ability of spamming left click and pressing the w key. thats actualy realy hard for simulor players.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 14.11.2016 at 4:17 PM, EDYinnit said:

Still waiting on that Tonkor and Synoid/Simulor rebalance that was promised several Devstreams past.

The Zarr makes me giddy from the sheer feedback of wielding it, but as a launcher it's still useless in comparison to those broken alternatives.

 

Those clustered 'seeking' rockets go pretty much wherever they please, but you can be damn sure you still take damage from them yourself. Where's the crying of "Can't put selfdamage on muh Tonka toy, how will I not blow myself up all day" babies now?

 

"Clustering Mortar that doubles as a shotgun in a pinch" is the most Grineer thing I have ever heard and I love it. Please, fix the obsolescence of weapons that don't even exist yet. Balance the Tonkor and Simulor.

 

That headshot bugfix wasn't a nerf. Remember THIS? We all proved the need for this many, many, MANY times over.

Here's the guy who just wants to ruin other people's fun. As if we need more self-damage in this game. No, we don't. Self-damage in warframe is stupid and broken. It shouldn't one-shot kill you, when most of the weapons with self-damage are barely sufficient for the target. Self-damage should be limited. And simulor? How do you imagine self damage on an AOE weapon with 15m max range?

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 15.11.2016 at 5:36 PM, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Agreed. At least you have to aim the tonkor and things like the amprex. The simulor requires zero skill to use.

 

On 16.11.2016 at 3:05 PM, SupremeDutchGamer said:

it actualy does. you have to have the all powerfull ability of spamming left click and pressing the w key. thats actualy realy hard for simulor players.

It's a PVE GAME what skill are you even talking about? We have zero actual gameplay in the game - let people at least have fun with whatever weapons they like. There are things way worse than simulor and tonkor - the only usable aoe-weapons you guys want to nerf. That's so toxic.

Edited March 13, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Fallen_Echo]

On 2016. 11. 14. at 2:54 PM, EDYinnit said:

Risk/reward is a thing. Remove selfdamage entirely and witness non-launchers become irrelevant because the launchers do big damage in an area without the drawback... like the SySim and Tonkor, especially during autoheadshot days, quite handily accomplished.

Yeah sure, im gonna trash my max cd soma prime so i can use the ogris because without the self damage its such a great weapon.

 

Now without sarcasm, why the hell i see in every post like this that without self damage we would all use explosive launchers. Seriously, when was the last time you seen someone using the Ogris,Kulstar,Penta or the Angstrum in a large open map like Hieracon? (no chance for self damage because of the large area)

I have seen some Zarr users, very few Kulstars and maybe the secura penta. Apart from these few the other explosive launcher weapons are all suffer from bad stats and on top of that the ridicolus self damage. Almost all of them need serious buffs.

The moment DE will decide to create a weapon with the stats of the boltor or the soma prime variant while having 1 meter aoe range will be the time we can say that launchers replaced normal weapons BUT NOT BEFORE!

[TheLexiConArtist]

Hi four months ago, how are you doing?

 

On 13/03/2017 at 9:19 AM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Here's the guy who just wants to ruin other people's fun. As if we need more self-damage in this game. No, we don't. Self-damage in warframe is stupid and broken. It shouldn't one-shot kill you, when most of the weapons with self-damage are barely sufficient for the target. Self-damage should be limited. And simulor? How do you imagine self damage on an AOE weapon with 15m max range?

Profile checks out.

 

Did you really dredge up a four month old post to simply state the same baseless, many-times-defeated drivel that we've had a hundred times over thus far?

If you actually cared to read a tenth of the material you would have realised how redundant your post is.

• Other people's 'fun' can very easily be ruined by your 'fun' non-interactive drawback-free AOE weapons QED the source(s) of your 'fun' is(are) not above criticism and changing for the betterment of others.
• Self-damage as it stands is acknowledged as excessive and I have made suggestions myself as to changes that should be made to balance appropriately as well as applying it properly to deserving weaponry. Just because it's busted doesn't mean it shouldn't exist - and removal of risks with far greater rewards is objectively an unbalanced alternative, hence the long-standing call for Tonkor balance due to its statistical superiority courtesy of criticals while having functionally zero risk.
• The Simulor has been acknowledged as a poor design choice that cannot be simply solved with application of self-damage (nor is as easily identified as deserving, as it is not conventional ordnance like the Grineer explosive arsenal, Talons, Angstrum etc.). It is still broken, and since autoheadshotting was removed, is arguably more so than the Tonkor is these days; it still needs changing to achieve fair balance.

On 13/03/2017 at 11:26 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

Yeah sure, im gonna trash my max cd soma prime so i can use the ogris because without the self damage its such a great weapon.

Now without sarcasm, why the hell i see in every post like this that without self damage we would all use explosive launchers. Seriously, when was the last time you seen someone using the Ogris,Kulstar,Penta or the Angstrum in a large open map like Hieracon? (no chance for self damage because of the large area)

I have seen some Zarr users, very few Kulstars and maybe the secura penta. Apart from these few the other explosive launcher weapons are all suffer from bad stats and on top of that the ridicolus self damage. Almost all of them need serious buffs.

The moment DE will decide to create a weapon with the stats of the boltor or the soma prime variant while having 1 meter aoe range will be the time we can say that launchers replaced normal weapons BUT NOT BEFORE!

The Soma was considered power creep in its time.

The Soma Prime is power creep above that; it and the Boltor Prime were considered the poster children of OP.

Adding risk-free large-area high-damage weapons in the SySim and Tonkor made the Soma and Boltor Primes literally become referred to as mediocre because the differences were just that great. Autoheadshotting being removed has not completely reverted this, and more importantly, also reduced the output of the explosives already not up to par.

 

Bringing in the Ogris to the equation is hardly fair, in fact; it's an ancient weapon with every downside going for it - effective 1/2.5s fire rate, mediocre damage, poor radius of explosion.

But just because the Ogris is out of date, does not mean that its relative balancing factors do not apply. When indeed was the last time you saw the Ogris, or Pentas? Why would you see them when they are functionally obsolete by risk-free alternatives that also grant superior reward? I saw Pentas frequently but not predominantly, before the advent of Tonka-toys making it obsolete. Self-damage sure didn't change, but seeing SySims and/or Tonkors popularised to the exclusion of other weapons (especially while autoheadshotting) speaks volumes.

 

 

To put it succinctly: Below-average weapons needing buffs does not mean that other vastly above-average weapons do not need nerfs. Balance is a two-way street.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

8 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

fair balance

What's a fair balance in a pve game? There are two unacceptable things that can not be allowed in warframe - full on immortality (like Wukong and old Hysteria Valkyr) and locking whole rooms of enemies without killing them like old Ash's ult did. I get it, Mirage with a simulor is annoying, but there are worse setups than that in the game and melee weapons deal way more damage than any tonkor or simulor without a single drawback. Asking for a balance in a pve game is pointless. Yes, other weapons should be made usable in higher-end missions (even though we don't have any right now), but the real problem isn't just the lack of self damage on the simulor and tonkor. We don't need more self-damage in Warframe - we need less of it. People don't use self-damaging aoe weapons because they're unreliable and any suggestion on nerfing the only two usable aoe weapons in the game in my eyes simply come out as toxic. I would agree, if self damage was reworked properly, but your suggestion wasn't about that - it was about nerfing weapons people use and enjoy to the point where nobody would use them anymore. 

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

What's a fair balance in a pve game? There are two unacceptable things that can not be allowed in warframe - full on immortality (like Wukong and old Hysteria Valkyr) and locking whole rooms of enemies without killing them like old Ash's ult did. I get it, Mirage with a simulor is annoying, but there are worse setups than that in the game and melee weapons deal way more damage than any tonkor or simulor without a single drawback. Asking for a balance in a pve game is pointless. Yes, other weapons should be made usable in higher-end missions (even though we don't have any right now), but the real problem isn't just the lack of self damage on the simulor and tonkor. We don't need more self-damage in Warframe - we need less of it. People don't use self-damaging aoe weapons because they're unreliable and any suggestion on nerfing the only two usable aoe weapons in the game in my eyes simply come out as toxic. I would agree, if self damage was reworked properly, but your suggestion wasn't about that - it was about nerfing weapons people use and enjoy to the point where nobody would use them anymore.

Actually, this thread in particular was a quick reaction to highlight the fact that DE had created a weapon with self-damage while being ill-controlled, which was one of the primary defenses of Tonkor apologists. Then they tossed Zarr-cluster damage; then they made clusters behave more sensibly and didn't return the self-damage. Call it half a job, kneejerk reactions or whatever, there's no reason the Zarr clusters couldn't have self-damage just like the Kulstar's ancillary projectiles do.

 

Asking for balance in a PVE game is not pointless. The Tonkor and SySim aren't the 'only usable AOE weapons' in the game, they're just the most broken ones in the grand scheme of things which makes them ubiquitous, after accounting for the margins of players' personal quirks.

 

See that link at the bottom of the post you first quoted there?

Go read that thread. Yes, it's over fifty pages. That's because we've been over this and still concluded that defending those weapons is naught but short-sightedness or self-service.

 

People use the Zarr with self-damage. People use the Kulstar. People use other AOE weapons. Not all of these have self-damaging properties, but they do have other significant drawbacks in other areas. The need to aim. Ammo economy. Damage bases. Damage falloff. Damage being dealt over time instead of instantly. Actual functional area of effect.

Lots and lots of factors weighing down the luxury of AOE. Lots of factors not shared by the problem children, because their unilateral advantages compensate away any 'drawbacks' you can claim. Aiming a Tonkor is tough? No need, point blank it because there's no risk to doing so. Low mag size? Turns out that calculates as still being better through reloading because the effectiveness of each shot is so much greater than the competition.

[SDGDen]

On 13-3-2017 at 10:20 AM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 

It's a PVE GAME what skill are you even talking about? We have zero actual gameplay in the game - let people at least have fun with whatever weapons they like. There are things way worse than simulor and tonkor - the only usable aoe-weapons you guys want to nerf. That's so toxic.

lol.... i dont think you know how game design works huh? 

[DreamsmithJane]

On 3/13/2017 at 2:20 AM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

It's a PVE GAME what skill are you even talking about? We have zero actual gameplay in the game - let people at least have fun with whatever weapons they like. There are things way worse than simulor and tonkor - the only usable aoe-weapons you guys want to nerf. That's so toxic.

If it's PvE, there is automatically "zero actual gameplay"? That is, um...wrong, and not how games work. What's toxic is a significant minority of players removing "actual gameplay" on behalf of everyone else by using these unbalanced tools in the cheesiest ways possible, without other players having any say in the matter.

[Fallen_Echo]

5 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

If it's PvE, there is automatically "zero actual gameplay"? That is, um...wrong, and not how games work. What's toxic is a significant minority of players removing "actual gameplay" on behalf of everyone else by using these unbalanced tools in the cheesiest ways possible, without other players having any say in the matter.

We mod our weapons to be as powerful as they could be, thats the whole point of modding stuff.

Please tell me, do you mod your weapons to do medicore damage against low level enemies or to butcher them up as fast as you can?

Do you care about the guy who brought the Seer in the mission and go slower so he can get some kills?

Im not gonna bring in weak useless gear (unless im leveling) into endless runs because it will hinder the gameplay and this stands for non-endless missions too.

 

Our enemies have scaling armor, scaling health and scaling damage, which means to survive we must get the most powerful gear avaible. If DE would finally remove the scaling damage and armor we wouldnt need to get weapons this powerful because noticing an enemy who is aiming at you would mean danger and not immient death (corrupted bombard, corpus tech, etc...)

But i have a safer auggestion for this matter. Add in self damage and a proximity defense mechanism.

If you shoot the kulstar at the enemy and you would be hit by more than 50% of your total hitpoints the kulstar would shot blanks dealing 50% less damage with no status, crit and aoe. Obviously this is only meant to apply to explosive weapons.

[BoomyGordo]

id love to see self damage put on the tonkor though maybe not the zarr, the bomblets are still too erratic to predict where they will land. the similor needs reworked. right now its a room clear with no skill or risk to it.

 

18 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

If it's PvE, there is automatically "zero actual gameplay"? That is, um...wrong, and not how games work. What's toxic is a significant minority of players removing "actual gameplay" on behalf of everyone else by using these unbalanced tools in the cheesiest ways possible, without other players having any say in the matter.

hes convinced that warframe has no gameplay and is full of things that its impossible to have skill at. infact he made a post about self damage and basically wants it removed or unable to kill you.. so make weapons that take almost no skill take even less. just smile and wave and he might eventually stop shoveling the stuff he has been posting

[AperoBeltaTwo]

19 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

zero actual gameplay

zero actual gameplay is the starchart,

56 minutes ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

hes convinced that warframe has no gameplay and is full of things that its impossible to have skill at. infact he made a post about self damage and basically wants it removed or unable to kill you.. so make weapons that take almost no skill take even less. just smile and wave and he might eventually stop shoveling the stuff he has been posting

don't be a d***, Shinji.

Let it stagger, let it deal damage, but not oneshot ffs when it can't even scratch the enemy. Most of the aoe weapons are tremendously weak. But they always oneshot the player. I have no idea how anyone could honestly think that's ok. Your logic eludes me.
 

[BoomyGordo]

30 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Let it stagger, let it deal damage, but not oneshot ffs when it can't even scratch the enemy. Most of the aoe weapons are tremendously weak. But they always oneshot the player. I have no idea how anyone could honestly think that's ok. Your logic eludes me.

all examples you have used have been level 100 heavy enemies...  well im sorry to say that after extensive testing yesterday the only weapons that one shot heavies were the tonkor and the lanka and that was ONLY with ivara giving them a 16.5x damage multiplier. stealth gas melee procs still wreck face but thats a bug thats getting patched out. virtually everything else that wasnt a status stacking weapon barely scratched their health. even my status stacking 30k damage per shot tigris prime took 6 shots to kill them.

you have an enormous tendancy to ignore others arguments and just repeat your self and then stop replying when you cant figure out a way to try and debunk their statments so im not restarting this here.

Edited March 16, 2017 by --Laughing-Soul--

[AperoBeltaTwo]

31 minutes ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

all examples you have used have been level 100 heavy enemies...  well im sorry to say that after extensive testing yesterday the only weapons that one shot heavies were the tonkor and the lanka and that was ONLY with ivara giving them a 16.5x damage multiplier. stealth gas melee procs still wreck face but thats a bug thats getting patched out. virtually everything else that wasnt a status stacking weapon barely scratched their health. even my status stacking 30k damage per shot tigris prime took 6 shots to kill them.

you have an enormous tendancy to ignore others arguments and just repeat your self and then stop replying when you cant figure out a way to try and debunk their statments so im not restarting this here.

What examples? wtf are you even talking about?... also put sweeping serration on your tigris prime instead of blaze or punchthrough (whichever you like less). You're welcome. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[taiiat]

i'm sorry for continuing this Necro but i see stuff to talk about while i get 'clickbaited' into a dead Thread.

On 3/15/2017 at 2:25 AM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

There are two unacceptable things that can not be allowed in warframe - full on immortality (like Wukong and old Hysteria Valkyr) and locking whole rooms of enemies without killing them like old Ash's ult did.

uh, three things, if we're talking about this stuff.

• invulnerability, and high enough Damage Resistance for effective invulnerability.
• 100% uptime mapwide CC
• mapwiping

15 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

If DE would finally remove the scaling damage and armor we wouldnt need to get weapons this powerful because noticing an enemy who is aiming at you would mean danger and not immient death (corrupted bombard, corpus tech, etc...)

but that doesn't change that some Equipment defeats the existence of others. better at literally everything, so that's what's used because there's no reason to use anything else.

59 minutes ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

well im sorry to say that after extensive testing yesterday the only weapons that one shot heavies were the tonkor and the lanka and that was ONLY with ivara giving them a 16.5x damage multiplier.

virtually everything else that wasnt a status stacking weapon barely scratched their health. even my status stacking 30k damage per shot tigris prime took 6 shots to kill them.

you're clearly doing something wrong because Lanka can oneshot Lv100 Armored Heavies with non-ideal Elementals without any exterior Multipliers. pretty much all of the popular Spike Damage Weapons will do similarly, though not most with non-ideal Elementals due to what options that Equipment has available to it..

not very extensive testing, it seems.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 11/15/2016 at 2:29 AM, EDYinnit said:

Oh boy, someone ignorant on the forums making an ad hominem attack because they can't actually bring anything well-reasoned and constructive to the debate.

What else is new, indeed.

 You sir, are an extremely toxic individual. 

 

On 11/14/2016 at 6:54 AM, EDYinnit said:

Risk/reward is a thing. Remove selfdamage entirely and witness non-launchers become irrelevant because the launchers do big damage in an area without the drawback... like the SySim and Tonkor, especially during autoheadshot days, quite handily accomplished.

Risk/Reward doesn't exist on this game. I'll explain why. Killing a few enemies in a decent sized AoE with a launcher is no different then me equipping my Tigris Prime with a shred mod equipped and killing everything in a straight line with a single shot. There's no difference between using a launcher and going Nidus and killing everything in one shot after you get enough stacks, or going Nova and obliterating everything with AMD or switching to Saryn and murdering everything with Spores. 

 

Launchers have no Risk/Reward as there is no reward. Killing a group of enemies isn't a reward. When I fire the trigger aiming at enemy #956,037 there is no reward of killing him as I am just going to kill anywhere from 100 more of him to 2000 more. Risk/Reward is a mechanic that only functions when the Reward justifies the risk. There is no risk when you use better and functionally superior weapons such as the Tigris prime, Melee weapons such as the galatine prime, dragon nikana, jat kittag, or the brakk and kill enemies just as fast or faster then a launcher. Launcher's are redundant in this game as much as people complain about them. Warframe powers vastly out damage launchers and guns can easily be modded to do the same thing. I can toss on my atomos and play as mirage and it's no different then the SynSim. (Probably a little worse since it has more range, and each atomos from the clones chains to 3 enemies too) 

 

The only thing you are right about is Launchers needing a rework. You are wrong about everything else. Launchers aren't about Risk/Reward but a play style. And It's just a different play style. Pull trigger, enemies die vs Pull Trigger, friend or enemy get too close to you and you die. There's literaly no reason to have self damage except to make launchers inferior to every other weapon (except maybe Snipers cause Snipers are even worse). I think all launchers should have the same effect as the tonkor that if you are hit in the explosion radius you are propelled away from the blast. Remove self damage entirely. There is literally no reason to have it in a horde shooter. You are shooting hordes. The only gun that I could justify removing any kind of health is if it traded a small enough portion of health, and gave you the opportunity via a mechanic to regain it all back. Like a launcher that drained 50 health per shot, but healed 25 damage per enemy hit. (Probably an infested launcher.) Otherwise Launchers have no place in this game other than an infested defense mission so you can climb up on something and occasionally shoot down at the pod every so often. 

(It would be kinda funny to watch Mirage's blast themselves backwards when they fire detonate) 

Launchers need a rework sure, getting rid of self damage, adding rocket jumping to everything and buffing them to the same degree that shotguns were would be a good thing for this game, but really there are only two launchers people use. Surprise surprise it's the only two that don't kill you. 

You can give the tonkor self damage, when you add self damage to everything else in the game. Give shotguns a 15% chance to blow you up. Rifles and pistols can have 10% and then give melee weapons 100% chance to kill you so you know what it would be like if you accidentally fired a tonkor blast at a friend that got in your way. (Sarcasm btw)

[Fallen_Echo]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

 You sir, are an extremely toxic individual. 

 

Risk/Reward doesn't exist on this game. I'll explain why. Killing a few enemies in a decent sized AoE with a launcher is no different then me equipping my Tigris Prime with a shred mod equipped and killing everything in a straight line with a single shot. There's no difference between using a launcher and going Nidus and killing everything in one shot after you get enough stacks, or going Nova and obliterating everything with AMD or switching to Saryn and murdering everything with Spores. 

 

Launchers have no Risk/Reward as there is no reward. Killing a group of enemies isn't a reward. When I fire the trigger aiming at enemy #956,037 there is no reward of killing him as I am just going to kill anywhere from 100 more of him to 2000 more. Risk/Reward is a mechanic that only functions when the Reward justifies the risk. There is no risk when you use better and functionally superior weapons such as the Tigris prime, Melee weapons such as the galatine prime, dragon nikana, jat kittag, or the brakk and kill enemies just as fast or faster then a launcher. Launcher's are redundant in this game as much as people complain about them. Warframe powers vastly out damage launchers and guns can easily be modded to do the same thing. I can toss on my atomos and play as mirage and it's no different then the SynSim. (Probably a little worse since it has more range, and each atomos from the clones chains to 3 enemies too) 

 

The only thing you are right about is Launchers needing a rework. You are wrong about everything else. Launchers aren't about Risk/Reward but a play style. And It's just a different play style. Pull trigger, enemies die vs Pull Trigger, friend or enemy get too close to you and you die. There's literaly no reason to have self damage except to make launchers inferior to every other weapon (except maybe Snipers cause Snipers are even worse). I think all launchers should have the same effect as the tonkor that if you are hit in the explosion radius you are propelled away from the blast. Remove self damage entirely. There is literally no reason to have it in a horde shooter. You are shooting hordes. The only gun that I could justify removing any kind of health is if it traded a small enough portion of health, and gave you the opportunity via a mechanic to regain it all back. Like a launcher that drained 50 health per shot, but healed 25 damage per enemy hit. (Probably an infested launcher.) Otherwise Launchers have no place in this game other than an infested defense mission so you can climb up on something and occasionally shoot down at the pod every so often. 

(It would be kinda funny to watch Mirage's blast themselves backwards when they fire detonate) 

Launchers need a rework sure, getting rid of self damage, adding rocket jumping to everything and buffing them to the same degree that shotguns were would be a good thing for this game, but really there are only two launchers people use. Surprise surprise it's the only two that don't kill you. 

You can give the tonkor self damage, when you add self damage to everything else in the game. Give shotguns a 15% chance to blow you up. Rifles and pistols can have 10% and then give melee weapons 100% chance to kill you so you know what it would be like if you accidentally fired a tonkor blast at a friend that got in your way. (Sarcasm btw)

I posted a possible aolution for the whole self damage problem and i would like to ask what you think about it.

Solution 1: Self defense mechanism, when you fire an explosive weapon and get too close to the aoe (damage you receive is more than 25-50% of current health) your weapon instead of firing an armed shot, sends out a blank round dealing 50% less damage with no crit and no status chance.

Solution 2: Intelligent targeting systems, when you fire an explosive weapon too close to yourself, the targeting system changes the explosive ammo into breach shots. When you hit the enemy with a breach shot would cause aoe in a cone and not in a circle around the target. This way you can safely shot close targets with aoe guns.

OR just add the breach shot effect like a mod.

Increase the breach range by 150% and firerate by 15%

 

This is really a necro, havent noticed it sorry.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Fallen_Echo

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I posted a possible aolution for the whole self damage problem and i would like to ask what you think about it.

Solution 1: Self defense mechanism, when you fire an explosive weapon and get too close to the aoe (damage you receive is more than 25-50% of current health) your weapon instead of firing an armed shot, sends out a blank round dealing 50% less damage with no crit and no status chance.

Solution 2: Intelligent targeting systems, when you fire an explosive weapon too close to yourself, the targeting system changes the explosive ammo into breach shots. When you hit the enemy with a breach shot would cause aoe in a cone and not in a circle around the target. This way you can safely shot close targets with aoe guns.

OR just add the breach shot effect like a mod.

Increase the breach range by 150% and firerate by 15%

 

This is really a necro, havent noticed it sorry.

Breach shots would be fantastic.  Mod or Not, It's a Great Idea. 

 

I'm not a fan of self damage, but atleast you would survive in that case. 

[ashrah]

would be much better if they remove self dmg form other launchers.... and i dont must to stay 50 meters from my team to can use secura penta cz how many times...   ppl jump in front of u and in same time u fire and u kill self.. cz ppl dont think  what they doing

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

 You sir, are an extremely toxic individual.

Pointing out an ad hominem, by definition someone being toxic by attacking people rather than their arguments, makes me a toxic individual.

/golfclap

 

After that, I'm not even going to dignify the paragraphs of fluffed nonsense with quote, but here's some point responses:

• Removing opposition is a reward. Removing more opposition is more reward. Removing opposition in a shorter time is more reward. You can try to argue semantics all you like.
• Risk-reward is present in many forms. Conventional ordnance tends toward having self-risk for the rewards of full and frontloaded area damage. Other Warframe weapons exhibit alternatives such as over-time damage (being shot until accumulating enough damage to kill is a tradeoff), ammo economies and range falloff.
• Placing Punch Through on a Tigris Prime still exhibits tradeoffs for that reward:
  • Limited cone of effect
  • Damage Falloff for more distant targets
  • Reduced raw damage (courtesy missing mod slot)
• Just because you cannot fathom the usage of weapons with personal risk does not mean that they should not and cannot exist.
  • Corollary: Weapons without personal risk may also exist alongside those with risk, but must either have proportional alternative drawbacks or reduced effect, because balance.
• Comparing Warframe powers to weapons is essentially pointless because we're discussing inter-weapon balance, not the relation between weapon effectiveness and the effectiveness of something else entirely.
• Comparing the most egregiously power-crept weapons to ancient outdated weapons to argue against a balancing factor is ridiculous. Nobody is surprised to hear that an Ogris is beaten by a Tigris Prime in ameliorated reward while also lacking equivalent drawbacks between the two, just like it's not breaking news that the Boltor Prime is better than the base Boltor.

3 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Solution 1: Self defense mechanism, when you fire an explosive weapon and get too close to the aoe (damage you receive is more than 25-50% of current health) your weapon instead of firing an armed shot, sends out a blank round dealing 50% less damage with no crit and no status chance.

Solution 2: Intelligent targeting systems, when you fire an explosive weapon too close to yourself, the targeting system changes the explosive ammo into breach shots. When you hit the enemy with a breach shot would cause aoe in a cone and not in a circle around the target. This way you can safely shot close targets with aoe guns.

OR just add the breach shot effect like a mod.

Increase the breach range by 150% and firerate by 15%

I like your second solution's idea as a new weapon and/or mod for explosives, but question how it would exactly work for projectiles that may not have a velocity directly away from their owner; stationary Penta 'nades, any Adhesive'd, Kulstar clusters or even bounced Tonkor 'nades once made relevant.

If it only affects direct-hits then it might not really do much to solve self-damaging as a concern.

 

First solution only doubles the ceiling a player's damage must reach in order to still kill themselves. Equivalent to reducing the self-damage ratio from 30% to 15%, but only when critical and with additional drawbacks. Wouldn't recommend.

 

32 minutes ago, ashrah said:

would be much better if they remove self dmg form other launchers.... and i dont must to stay 50 meters from my team to can use secura penta cz how many times...   ppl jump in front of u and in same time u fire and u kill self.. cz ppl dont think  what they doing

That's a matter of subjective opinion. Mine, on the other hand, is that there's no fun in toting a big explosive damage source if I don't need to play smart about where I shoot it.

 

Clipping on teammates should probably be solved regardless, though. Not only launchers suffer from that. Nothing worse than getting some idiot body-blocking a perfectly lined up sniper round or arrow.

I've also suggested adding (where reasonable) UI markers like the Elytron Archwing's projectiles have so that you can see where your explosive is. No more issues with Penta 'nades bouncing off Nullifiers and unknowingly rolling back at your feet before you pop them. No issues with Tonkor grenades having come to rest somewhere unseen after a miss, even if the Tonkor had its deserving self-damage.

[Urquiora]

so you're angry that you aren't getting top kills on the results board then lol.

 

ok.

[nameomnz]

---

::Personal Rant::

Why people keep claiming that Warframe is not a skill-base game.

Seriously, All of you are making DE coming up with a GIMMICK enemies that cannot be normally kill and have to do whatever that required to kill them.

Gimmick enemy as DE try to make people have a closer look at that specific enemy and learn how to counter them Rahter than just see them and one-shot them like NOTHING making us who using a balanced weapon Suffer in pain dealing with those enemies.

If you like to use power creep weapon and claim that "It's not a Skill-Base game you nerd, You better go cry in the corner like a baby Rather than suggest a nerf to the best weapon in the game" Cmon people, Warframe has been suffer from this problem for a really long time. Just do whatever that serves the balance of this game. So we could have fun with other Don't keep the fun only for your own.

---

Now that is out of my chest.

So as in my head there are MANY ways to fix the problem. They could add self-damage cap to all launchers or they could make all the launcher have self-damage.

I peronally prefer "Self-damage+Mod to remove them" So I could equip the utility mod that trade out damage but keep you safe. Or if I'm not worry about damaging myself I could take it off and go with more damage instread. It's like "If you're skill or brave enough to not use the mod, Then your reward is be able to DEAL more damage!!"

Just my opioion.

Edited March 17, 2017 by nameomnz

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, nameomnz said:

---

::Personal Rant::

Why people keep claiming that Warframe is not a skill-base game.

Seriously, All of you are making DE coming up with a GIMMICK enemies that cannot be normally kill and have to do whatever that required to kill them.

Gimmick enemy as DE try to make people have a closer look at that specific enemy and learn how to counter them Rahter than just see them and one-shot them like NOTHING making us who using a balanced weapon Suffer in pain dealing with those enemies.

If you like to use power creep weapon and claim that "It's not a Skill-Base game you nerd, You better go cry in the corner like a baby Rather than suggest a nerf to the best weapon in the game" Cmon people, Warframe has been suffer from this problem for a really long time. Just do whatever that serves the balance of this game. So we could have fun with other Don't keep the fun only for your own.

---

Now that is out of my chest.

So as in my head there are MANY ways to fix the problem. They could add self-damage cap to all launchers or they could make all the launcher have self-damage.

I peronally prefer "Self-damage+Mod to remove them" So I could equip the utility mod that trade out damage but keep you safe. Or if I'm not worry about damaging myself I could take it off and go with more damage instread. It's like "If you're skill or brave enough to not use the mod, Then your reward is be able to DEAL more damage!!"

Just my opioion.

You know i would agree with your mof suggestion if its done like this:

D polarity

decrease self-damage by 100% and damage by 50%

And another one

increase self damage by 100% and damage by 50%

 

OR we could use my suggestion on the second page for the breach shot mod.

 

Self damage needs to be either eliminated or modified to fit our game. I have died too many times from nullfier reflected kulstar shots or from a frost deciding to make a globe infront of me when i shot or just from teammates suddenly leaping infront of me.