Launcher Rebalancing; the Zarr proves that not even uncontrollable explosive ordnance is an excuse for a lack of selfdamage risk for AOE reward.

[MJ12]

Self damage exists in multiplayer games like Quake or Unreal where health regain was pretty easy and the worst case scenario of suicide is... you spend 2 seconds looking at the spawn screen, then back into the action. Losing all the guns you had collected was harsh, but

You get 4-6 revives in Warframe, your health doesn't regenerate and healing is rare, and in multiplayer dying can easily take you out of the game and render you unable to contribute for 10+ seconds, even if you don't die and need to use a revive.

The idea that self-damage is needed for some arbitrary "risk-reward" balancing, or because other games had it is silly. It's basically a sacred cow-"these other games had it so ours needs it as well." Why?

Can you articulate why, exactly, the game would be better off if you could instantly die because you bounced a Tonkor slightly off and it landed closer to you? Or take permanent, hard to heal health damage? Why is it that if you want to use an explosive weapon you should be forced to camp a high position and fire down into enemies because anything else means instant death?

In a fast-paced game like Warframe where enemies are common and precision isn't demanded, there's no reason to make explosives do self-damage. "But they'll outclass the assault rifles" you say. I'm pretty sure I see more Heks than I do Ogrises or Pentas-and this is after they made it so the Penta doesn't self-damage because you have Tether Grenades.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 hours ago, MJ12 said:

The idea that self-damage is needed for some arbitrary "risk-reward" balancing, or because other games had it is silly. It's basically a sacred cow-"these other games had it so ours needs it as well." Why?

Can you articulate why, exactly, the game would be better off if you could instantly die because you bounced a Tonkor slightly off and it landed closer to you? Or take permanent, hard to heal health damage? Why is it that if you want to use an explosive weapon you should be forced to camp a high position and fire down into enemies because anything else means instant death?

"arbitrary" risk-reward balancing, or consistency with the historical implementation in the game risk-reward balancing?

Examples of conventional ordnance subject to self-damage:

• Ogris
• Pentas
• Angstrum
• Kulstar
• Zarr
• Thunderbolt Arrows
• Concealed Explosive Thrown Secondaries
• Talons

Examples of conventional ordnance not (functionally) subject to self-damage:

• Tonkor

 

You have several options for healing yourself, too:

• Warframe abilities, eg:
  • Trinity
  • Oberon
  • Inaros (passive, Devouring)
  • Nekros (generate health orbs)
  • Valkyr (natural lifesteal in Hysteria)
  • Wukong (Defying death essentially is a healing factor)
  • Nezha (although heal-halo is a pain)
  • Nidus
  • +Options to buffer yourself against the damage in advance
• Life Strike
• Medi-Ray
• Equilibrium + Energy Orbs (to offset the scarcity of health orbs)
• Hirudo
• Restoration pads and personal Health Restores

 

So no, I wouldn't say that you're any more entitled to a lack of self-damaging risk because healing is 'harder'.

 

 

Now, with all that aside, have you ever considered that people might want that risk as an alternative playstyle? Unless you're strictly in it for the extra reward factor of big instant AOE damage then you shouldn't be arguing for the removal of the identifying factor of the weapon archetype.

If you like explosions and are the archetypal Goblin, then you want the risk (although perhaps balanced appropriately) for the potential reward; you're attracted to the weapon(s) for their pros and cons.

If you want the massive reward and not the risk, you're not attracted to the weapons but only to the power they can hold. You want to clear mobs out without putting yourself in harm's way. Explosives aren't for you, all you want is power creep and non-damaging explosives are just a means to the end.

[Fallen_Echo]

6 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

"arbitrary" risk-reward balancing, or consistency with the historical implementation in the game risk-reward balancing?

Examples of conventional ordnance subject to self-damage:

• Ogris
• Pentas
• Angstrum
• Kulstar
• Zarr

All of these can kill a person in one shot, they dont have any chance to heal or brace themselves they just die.

• Thunderbolt Arrows
• Concealed Explosive Thrown Secondaries
• Talons

These im not sure but with modding it to deal more than 1000 damage, they can kill most frames ingame.

Examples of conventional ordnance not (functionally) subject to self-damage:

• Tonkor

This weapon has soo high damage it can ohk a max armor and health inaros, it doesnt need self damage

 

You have several options for healing yourself, too:

• Warframe abilities, eg:
  • Trinity
  • Oberon
  • Inaros (passive, Devouring)
  • Nekros (generate health orbs)
  • Valkyr (natural lifesteal in Hysteria)
  • Wukong (Defying death essentially is a healing factor)
  • Nezha (although heal-halo is a pain)
  • Nidus

So if you dont use them you are ******** big time and lets not forget the ohk factors.

• +Options to buffer yourself against the damage in advance
• Life Strike
• Medi-Ray
• Equilibrium + Energy Orbs (to offset the scarcity of health orbs)
• Hirudo
• Restoration pads and personal Health Restores

Really useful if you got ohk'd.

But heres some solutions:

Solution 1: Self defense mechanism, when you fire an explosive weapon and get too close to the aoe (damage you receive is more than 25-50% of current health) your weapon instead of firing an armed shot, sends out a blank round dealing 50% less damage with no crit and no status chance.

 

Solution 2: Intelligent targeting systems, when you fire an explosive weapon too close to yourself, the targeting system changes the explosive ammo into breach shots. When you hit the enemy with a breach shot would cause aoe in a cone and not in a circle around the target. This way you can safely shot close targets with aoe guns.

OR just add the breach shot effect like a mod.

Increase the breach range by 150% and firerate by 15%

 

Solution 3: Self damage mods

D polarity

decrease self-damage by 100% and damage by 50%

And another one

increase self damage by 100% and damage by 50%

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

 

I already addressed your suggestions in a previous post, and your in-quotation challenges are completely at odds with the context of the points being made - one an argument of consistency, the other an argument of why self-damage can and should be allowed at all (i.e. balanced down to appropriate levels rather than removed outright) because healing is quite available.

Although I will drag this out:

9 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

This weapon has soo high damage it can ohk a max armor and health inaros, it doesnt need self damage

On the contrary, that's why it has no business not having self-damage.

-  It's conventional ordnance (every other instance of which deals self-damage)

-  It does not do significantly lower damage (and therefore balanced to its lower risk)

-  Providing more in output needs to be accompanied with appropriately increased drawbacks (because balance is not irrelevant in PVE)

Ergo, the Tonkor should be capable of killing your face off if you play like an idiot with it, and as an added bonus, that would actually make the distance-aiming 'drawback' more than a weak excuse that doesn't impede it in practice because nothing stops you going up point-blank with it where you don't need to aim. _{Plus there's also the fact that its large range means stray grenades on the ground from 'misses' still do plenty...}

[Ventura_Highway]

18 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

 

Self damage needs to be either eliminated or modified to fit our game. I have died too many times from nullfier reflected kulstar shots or from a frost deciding to make a globe infront of me when i shot or just from teammates suddenly leaping infront of me.

You died because you shot a rocket at a nully, and then you kept doing the exact same thing, shooting and dying, over the course of multiple engagements?

That's not excessively smart you know?

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Ventura_Highway said:

You died because you shot a rocket at a nully, and then you kept doing the exact same thing, shooting and dying, over the course of multiple engagements?

That's not excessively smart you know?

I use my kulstar becuase while it cant really kill masses of enemies but it brings reliable cc. The only problem is the corpus sorties where nullies spawn too fast, but thats another problem.

[Ventura_Highway]

31 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I use my kulstar becuase while it cant really kill masses of enemies but it brings reliable cc. The only problem is the corpus sorties where nullies spawn too fast, but thats another problem.

I was expecting to hear something along the lines of "I try to shoot so the explosion reaches the edge of the bubble and it doesn't work out fairly often."

It sounds like the issue isn't with the weapon, if you're repeating actions proven dangerous over and over again in game, and not attempting to refine the tactic to only be dangerous to the enemy.

[Fallen_Echo]

27 minutes ago, Ventura_Highway said:

I was expecting to hear something along the lines of "I try to shoot so the explosion reaches the edge of the bubble and it doesn't work out fairly often."

It sounds like the issue isn't with the weapon, if you're repeating actions proven dangerous over and over again in game, and not attempting to refine the tactic to only be dangerous to the enemy.

Well to be fair, that was the original plan. I modded my kulstar to shoot 5 rockets at the same time and it killed me 3 times in a mission, one in an attempt to pop the bubble and two wen these guys closed up at the target.

[Ventura_Highway]

2 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Well to be fair, that was the original plan. I modded my kulstar to shoot 5 rockets at the same time and it killed me 3 times in a mission, one in an attempt to pop the bubble and two wen these guys closed up at the target.

It's going to take a little bit of time to get to my computer but i might have a method of doing that more safely.

[Ventura_Highway]

6 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Well to be fair, that was the original plan. I modded my kulstar to shoot 5 rockets at the same time and it killed me 3 times in a mission, one in an attempt to pop the bubble and two wen these guys closed up at the target.

Dunno if it's fine to double post like this but I think I can safely pop nullifier bubbles with a Kulstar.

You should try bullet jumping upwards and then aiming. I think if you do that you won't have as much trouble with other enemies blocking your shot and also have an easier time aiming downward at the boundary of the bubble.

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, Ventura_Highway said:

Dunno if it's fine to double post like this but I think I can safely pop nullifier bubbles with a Kulstar.

You should try bullet jumping upwards and then aiming. I think if you do that you won't have as much trouble with other enemies blocking your shot and also have an easier time aiming downward at the boundary of the bubble.

Well thanks for the advice, i will try it next time:)

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 17.03.2017 at 3:31 AM, taiiat said:

high enough Damage Resistance for effective invulnerability.

no such thing in the game. Corpus guns will break through any resistance.

On 17.03.2017 at 9:52 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

Solution 1: Self defense mechanism, when you fire an explosive weapon and get too close to the aoe (damage you receive is more than 25-50% of current health) your weapon instead of firing an armed shot, sends out a blank round dealing 50% less damage with no crit and no status chance.

 

On 17.03.2017 at 9:52 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

OR just add the breach shot effect like a mod.

Another band-aid, m8. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 19.03.2017 at 10:14 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

Well thanks for the advice, i will try it next time:)

On Eris or Europa

Edited March 23, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[TheLexiConArtist]

Tonkor self-damage. AFK-promoting range and damage of Simulor spamming reduced.

And my old Ogris got a buff into the bargain.

Roll on update 20.

 

FLAWLESS VICTORY

Edited March 23, 2017 by EDYinnit