(Opinion) -removed spoiler- Combine and multiply all the worst aspects of Warframe

[AscendingDusk]

I have been debating posting this a lot, this is my opinion and you are free to disagree. Despite that, seeing a game I enjoyed (let alone spent time and money on) just be completely ruined at least for me and in my opinion, I at least had to express my feelings, and whether it ends up helping or not, I have at least tried and done what I could to keep this game that I was so invested in within my library, and I would suspect there are at least some other players that share some of my issues discussed here with TWW. (Additionally, sorry for the essay again, believe me when I say I have already edited this as much as I could to keep it as short as possible).

First, I love the core of this game. I love the gameplay, the feel of the weapons and abilities, the co-op, even the lore, the warframe designs, everything. According to Steam I have almost 500 hours of playtime and a not insignificant amount of money spent on Warframe. That said, I am not sure if I can enjoy it anymore.

Riven mods are killing my will to play. In my experience with this game, there are three aspects that have bothered me the most with Warframe: Lack of balance and broken scaling, frustrating, zero fun and honestly badly designed interjected mechanics forcibly and artificially coming between the player and core gameplay, and multiple layers of one of the worst RNG systems I have encountered for a single reward. Riven mods take these issues, magnify them, and combine them in a… let’s say “unique” package. For clarity I have split this post in three main sections.

 

 

Problem A: Goodnight, dreams of Balance.

Let me start with this. In the current state, the game balance is now doomed to be permanently broken. Copy pasting a bit from my first comment: I can’t even imagine how DE is going to balance them in future content. Do you balance high level missions around the idea that players will use some god tier randomly generated weapon mods (which would make the content almost impossible for players who didn’t have as good RNG even if they forced themselves through the extremely frustrating and unfun for me challenges to unlock them) or do you balance around the baseline (which would result in players with the god mods obliterating everything and then complaining the game is not “challenging enough”. Or do you just balance around data-mined stats which means whoever is on the wrong end of this average is simply kinda ***, while whoever is on the upper good end simply gets a lucky advantage, all just because RNG RNGed.

 

So, this is it. Riven mods mean that balance between players and enemies can never be achieved as the player has a completely random “factor x” at his disposal that can make anything in his arsenal impossibly op in a way that is also unknown. Or maybe he/she has nothing because RNG was not at a good mood. But if he has there is no way to balance it, as there would need to be as many different balances as there are players.

Add to that the fact that in each lobby there can be a max for 4 players, each possibly with their own unknown factor X, which prohibits dynamic scaling per player power level (like you see for ex in BGS games), as that would mean that the player with bad RNG would be *** or that the players with the good RNG would be in god mode, and you understand that this is an impossible to solve equation.

It also means that your ability to compare and keep up to par with your teammates in a squad is also determined by RNG. Previously, even primed mods did not offer such a huge advantage over normal ones. They were better, they were an advantage, but they were moderate just buffs over what everyone has. Nice to haves but not make or break. In addition, most (not all but the clear majority) of primed mods are in rotation and will eventually land in your hands if you just wait enough to get them.

In comparison, riven mods are unique for each player. God tier ones will be god tier for only one player. Bad ones will only hinder one player that could have got a god tier one if the RNG favored him. Balance is over, (mostly) equal footing with other players is over, all replaced with absolute RNG chaos. GG/GLHF, possibly. Maybe. Some complained about Ash and Saryn killing everything but at least you could get them too easily and do the same. Good luck getting a god tier mod role for the Tonkor/Soma/Simulor like your squadmate now. In other words, the game is broken.

 

 

Problem B: No, it’s not “optional” in the end.

And before you say “it’s optional”, not really. Because even if you can pass over the fact that your squad mates with good RNG and/or “whales” who buy those OP tonkor mods will kill everything long before you do, making the game a yawn-fest for you (which for me is enough to quit by itself), it’s pretty much a given that those players will eventually start complaining about the “lack of challenge”, while DE will complain about players “breezing through missions too fast”.

This will inevitably lead to DE buffing enemies with the assumption of you having these mods, because “data-mined statistics say X”, which means that if you don’t have these mods you will be left behind, like the ducats situation. Also, in this case even if you do go for them and grind the same, you may still end-up in this same situation because RNG did not favor you.

 

 

Problem C Fun? What’s that?

Bonus points for how terribly unfun and frustrating the acquisition and upgrading of the mods are. Once you get the mod (and good luck getting one from the sorties) you may be forced go through some seriously, seriously sadistic challenges (more RNG) that in years of gaming I am sure are the most anti-fun, frustration, anxiety producing mechanic I have ever encountered. If you don’t just give up on game at this point (in which case you have a lot more patience than me, and kudos for that) you may get the god-tier mod, or you might get +60% critical chance/ +150% status chance/ -200% damage for the Wyrm Laser Rifle or some primary you simply don’t enjoy.

 In case you at least enjoy the weapon (positive thinking), you must grind for Kuva, which is like aleritum, only worse. Because unlike alertium where you can wait for the alert to pop-up while enjoying the game otherwise, this time you have to repeat grind missions in hope that the aleritum alert, now a terrible mini-boss, appears.

And unlike previous situations, you don’t get the reward when the grind is over, you get a chance at it, as you may yet again get a trash mod. But you don’t know until you go through yet another frustrating challenge that if you are unlucky will be one that would not be worth doing even if DE paid you, no matter the opposite. If you actually do it, now it’s even harder to re-roll it if it’s trash. On top of it all, these travesties only drop from the RNG sortie rewards, so you need to do those every day, in the hope that you won’t get 2000 endo, yet again, only so you can start this whole process again after the first time. Fun?

Not only does this exclude all but the most devoted players with the maximum amount of free time to play multiple hours every day in the hope or an RNG blessing, but even if you do, for a lot of us this is just not fun. I want to have fun through the core gameplay, not torture myself with unlock requirements that are almost impossible if you get RNGed with one of the bad ones, (and then multiple RNG layers) just so I can get to play the game I enjoy. DE’s continuous addition of frustrating and underdesigned obstacles between the player and the core game for which most of us came to warframe has to stop at some point.

 

 

Closing:

Do you have a solution? If someone is about to ask this, not really. Honestly, I believe this system should have just never been released. It’s honestly hard for me to wrap my head around what has just happened to Warframe, and the implications have not even begun to show themselves. Unfortunately, when they do, it will be far too late to remove, significantly nerf or redesign the mods, which are already going around for hundreds of plat, and tomorrow I suspect thousands.

If something is to be done, it must be done now. Cut the problem before it roots. I suggest removing riven mods ASAP until the system is reworked to not be as game breaking (if that is even possible). And on that matter, these “challenges” need some major tone downs even if you do manage to balance the mods somehow, and repeating them after the reroll is just ridiculous.

As for me personally, I don’t want to be dramatic, but I still want to be honest, so I will just tell it as it is for me. I just can’t enjoy Warframe the same way anymore. Balance has been sunsetted, the grind level is even more utterly ridiculous than before, and even more bad, extremely, ridiculously frustrating gameplay mechanics which are not related to the core game most are here for have been introduced.

All in all, after all this waiting I have come to wish this update was never released. More power creep, more RNG, more frustration, more ridiculously excessive grind, no fun (short, one time quest excluded and not discussed here). I was looking forward to buying the Frost and Ember Prime bundle I suspect will be released around Christmas since I don’t have either, and I would get my first prime accessories too but after this I doubt I will still be playing Warframe for very long anymore, never mind that I will spend more money on it. And that saddens me a lot.

As much invested as I were in the game  before TWW, if this is not fixed soon, for me this is unfortunately the end of playing this game already. It’s just not worth it, and even more it’s not fun anymore. Frustration, extreme RNG reliance and no balance are exactly what I am not looking for in a game. That said since this update was just launched, I am keeping hope that DE will vacuum this and change course shortly and effectively. I would suspect that I am not alone in at least some of this either.

TL;DR Dear DE, please don’t ruin your own game for me (and probably many other players).

 

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by [DE]Danielle
Removed spoiler from title

[Sahansral]

For expressing my thoughts and feelings about this topic in a calm, mature and eloquent manner, I salute you!

+1000 this

[Sitchrea]

Yes yes yes, this. Bigger numbers does not make the game more fun!

[Hyacinth]

I totally agree. Especially to your "Problem B". I played Warframe for 3 years. i never hate on anything. except for this one.
It's RNGlucker players and the "whales". I thought at 1st its easy(i think i'm in for some luck). then re-rolling my 3riven mod for dread/cernos/simulor over 2k kuva never gave me a good one.
in the end, I was looking for Endless missions again in warframe. Looks like I'm in for a treat. I'll be forever farming kuva to get the perfect riven mod.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Hyacinth

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

I fully agree. The problem is the many differences between two players: the guy who did a hobbled simaris run w/o abilities or taking damage just to get a laser rifle mod, and the guy who completes an exterm w/o setting off any alerts to get a +crit chance, +crit damage, +base damage mod for tonkor/lanka/cernos/any other eligible crit-based primary. The possibility to get completely screwed over by RNG, and to have a pub who wasn't who ruins all your fun is too great.

[OHKOBunny]

On one hand it's a pleasant surprise when your favorite weapon gets the right riven and catches up in power to the meta.

On the other hand, it's disgusting how the meta weapons get streamlined into an impossibly high standard with Tonkor's almost million damage AOEs thanks to dual crit rivens

I think stat caps are in order, and we need the ability to re roll the weapon. People who roll meta weapon rivens make bank ( I saw a simulor mod with fire rate, damage and multishot sell for more plan than I've ever held ) And people who roll the worst weapons might as well have been punished for all their work.

I understand making these hard to achieve but the current system isn't very great. I'm hoping DE fixes it up so it's not disgustingly power creeped while still allowing non-meta weapons to catch up.

I'm also disappointed in the toxicity this has brought out in players. I've been buying / selling these mods to play with them and a few times people have been rude to me about it, and some people are being insulted for buying mods for their favorite nonmeta weapon.

[LordMidnightX]

Couldn't agree more about the RNG being over 9,000 here.

 

I really like the riven mod concept though. Of having different tough challenges in the game to unlock a really good mod. But after doing some of those challenges and getting something useless I would say the system is very flawed. There is honestly no reason for us to be any more powerful then we already are. Like seriously if you come prepared and your squad comes prepared you can complete every mission in this game. 

[Shifted]

We've been talking about lack of balance, "mandatory mods" and armor scaling for...years now and after seeing it reached DE's ears I thought we were finally going to get this fixed (eventually).

Instead we get those riven mods, building even more crazy imbalance on a broken foundation.

I fully agree with OP. 

Rework mods from the ground up, don't just slap more layers of ridiculousness to it.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Shifted

[CaptainPepeg]

Take my upvote kind sir

[Skaleek]

I'm still chewing the idea of the Riven mods. I can almost see the discussion DE had when this idea was pitched:

What are we known for? Our procedural generated content is something that makes us stand apart from others in the industry. How can we apply this to our sortie system? Well what if we procedural generated mods?  We could apply that which sets us apart from the rest to our modding system.

I'm not sure i like the increasing cost of Kuva for rerolling. 900 Kuva is a good number for the first reroll. 900 kuva is about 45 minutes of kuva farming give or take, depending on, once again, RNG.I wrote an entire breakdown of the RNG in the system but gave up because it took so long to write out just how much RNG is involved with getting the mod, getting the right weapon, the right MR requirement (apparently this effects the %'s) and the right attributes after. So i gave up on that. Remove the increasing reroll cost.

All of that and theres a limit to how many we can have? seriously? what if they add secondaries, melees, warframes. 15?! No thats not right at all. Because the day i have to throw away a riven mod, and then the next day the patch drops that increases my amount i can carry, I will feel utterly ripped off and the forums will pitch a fit, understandly so.

Is DE not basically telling us we have to make alt accounts to hold our riven mods now? Even though they've told us thats against the rules, who can honestly say they arent considering this as a method of keeping their riven mods? WF mules will become a HUGE thing now.

This post is raw and not edited, its just my general thoughts in no particular order so I aplogize if its difficult to read.

 

[notlamprey]

Bless you for putting in the effort required to make such a thorough post.

I'm entirely opposed to the idea of Riven Mods as they are currently implemented. With major change, I think they might be made to fit into Warframe.

Looking at the past, these systems have been the ruination of games and communities. DE has not, with its "speed of response," inspired confidence that anything will be done to stop the bleeding until things have gotten far worse than they currently are.

I can only hope that DE recognizes we are speaking from experience as players, and out of genuine concern for the health of this game that we (and they) love.

[Otis.Driftwood]

Personally I have no issue with these new riven mods.

Since the game is co-op having player on my team with God tier like riven mods on their primary weapon doesn't hinder my gameplay at all.

Sure they seem like overkill and the whole idea (I believe) is that you must sacrifice a mod on your weapon to actually put a riven mod on, so in effect you lose some of your original damage just to fit them.

Also these mods have quite a large mod point attached to them so one must have a fully formad weapon just to even maximize the potential. 

I fully understand were you are coming from with your opinion BUT sorry to burst your bubble here but they truly are optional at the moment as enemies have not been buffed at the present and I believe they wont be.

All in all they give the long time player something to do and lord knows we need something to do. Ive played the game for 3741 hrs and that's in mission hrs not false steam hrs I need something to do.

+ you can confidnently play the  endless fissures modes taking gameplay to extreme high levels is now not just CC everything to death above lvl 150

 

[Mr.Lube]

This post is fantastic. This illustrates pretty much every concern I have with this new addition. As many people need to see this as humanly possible, if we are going to fix this problem it needs to be done soon. Or else people will get complacent with the addition and the devs will be too afraid to make the change (even though the game is in beta...).

[Azamagon]

Great post OP, agreed entirely.

But you know what's funny (or actually, rather sad)? You know that thing DE said, that they intended to "allow weaker weapons to get up to par with the stronger ones", using a new system (obviously referring to these Riven mods)?
Well, that could've been done by just balancing all the weapons in the first place! *GASP* I know, baffling idea right?

So, this Riven mod system was intended to be (yet another) bandaid to help fix up the bad balance, but ended up making the balance way worse. Just goes to show that using bandaids (or in other words; adding more to a building with a horrible foundation) really is the absolute WORST way to deal with issues. Seriously, why can't they take the bull by the horns and just fix their stuff from the ground up, as any sane person would do by now?

And honestly, while I'm greatly disappointed and very saddened by this addition, I can't really say I'm surprised by all this...

I really hope the reactions from us, the players, this time around will FINALLY show them that they need to take the balancing of their game SERIOUSLY.

[HolySlash]

If i was DE, i would change this thing as fast as i can, just for not losing such a valuable and mature player like you OP. This is a awesome thread, and expressed the feelings of the majority players of Warframe. I have around 1,800 hours of play time, much has happened in Warframe and i really enjoy the game, but in all this time i haven't seen such a bad move from DE and stop playing this game would be VERY VERY SAD for me. Aside from spending my time and money in Warframe (which i did with no regrets, since now maybe), i've met AWESOME friends, lived things that i wouldn't ever imagined happen in my life, because, dispite the BIG DISTANCE between us, we've met in REAL LIFE. A bond that throught your game, will never be undone. Not a single bond, but a bunch !! Those were the best days of my entire life, and i will remember them forever. They make constant jokes about what i do in my free time, and they answer their own questions with "Obvious playing Warframe", because they know as much as i do, that i love this game very much and some moves from DE are making me not enjoy Warframe as i ever did, even when all of my other friends take a break from it because of uncoraging and unfun things that you guys did, i keep on playing the game, but it comes a point were the RNG is just extremely unfair. Extremely unfair. It angers even me, a fact that scares my friends because i'm ever playing and enjoying the game (when things are accessible and not all RNG based). Very few of them actually are playing the game, the others just quited because of grind walls and excessive RNG based things, like the Sortie missions, that awards 2000 endo 96% of the time. You guys did progress when put less grindy and unfair RNGed things in the game, i still put my money in the game because i love the cosmetics and some other things i buy with platinum, and talking about platinum: The overpowered Riven mods will be a HUGE thing in the Warframe economy, they will cost thousands of platinum. We already have this, with Primed Chamber and it's most for collector purposes, it don't makes snipers the most over power weapons of the game. But the Riven does. I think that doing this kind of RNG and unfair, unfun things will not bring you profit, DE.

I'm not fluent in English so i apologize for any uncorrect grammar, spelling or whatever. And I, again, salute the OP for this awesome thread. Thank you.

Edited November 15, 2016 by HolySlash

[DEATHLOK]

Great post.

RNG mods? Who thought that one up? More RNG the the LAST thing this game needed. What a way to waste time and resources needed for vital improvements!

I already hate grinding Void Traces. I really hate it. I rarely do Fissure missions any more, because they are so damn boring and repetitive. I'm not going to farm statues, stars, or Kuva on top of Void Traces and Forma. Enough is enough.

Really, just please stop pumping RNG and grind into the game. RNG and grind do NOT improve this game. Focus on quality tutorials, enemies, environments, story, and AI.

[Mr.Lube]

3 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

Great post.

RNG mods? Who thought that one up? More RNG the the LAST thing this game needed. What a way to waste time and resources needed for vital improvements!

I already hate grinding Void Traces. I really hate it. I rarely do Fissure missions any more, because they are so damn boring and repetitive. I'm not going to farm statues, stars, or Kuva on top of Void Traces and Forma. Enough is enough.

Really, just please stop pumping RNG and grind into the game. RNG and grind do NOT improve this game. Focus on quality tutorials, enemies, environments, story, and AI.

^^^^This, this, and more this.^^^^

[polarity]

To put it simply, I no longer have faith in DE as game developers.  It very much looks to me like somone in a senior position has developed a 'my way or the highway' mentality, has to green light every last little thing (so people can't get anything fixed, due to a micromanagement bottleneck), and won't accept any form of criticism regarding their ideas.

Universal Vacuum was the first major sign that this was likely, with the huge amount of pointless changes, and the massive player backlash to them, before they finally just gave everyone what they wanted in the first place.  Now here we are with an RNG crapshoot as to whether a player can get the next stage of powercreep or not, when what players have been asking for for a long time is less RNG, and instead of more powerful weapons, a raising of existing weapons to the same standard, so we have more choice.

DE's management need to learn to listen (and going by their Glassdoor reviews, that includes to their developers), instead of blatantly going against what is wanted, and taking the game in the opposite direction to what has for so long set it apart from the hated majority of 'either you pay or you farm your &#! off' F2P games.

It's a damned shame, because they still do good work in a lot of areas, but Warframe has for a long time been nursing several broken systems.  Instead of putting in the needed work to fix them, we've been given yet another half finished Jesus Feature to break them further.

DE, please, find some humility, and learn from other game developers who got to the same point, before it is too late.

 

[JJ842]

Agree completely op, have my upvote. Just like you I've pretty much lost the will to keep playing with this system in place, for the reasons you so eloquently stated. Sad but there it is. It really is mind-boggling to me how DE not only came up with this system but (apparently) developed it for a long while and no-one there raised any of these concerns (or was ignored). Unbelievable, simply unbelievable.

[Omni_Omega]

Agreed. Well written, well thought out. I will try to give this as much visibility as I can.

[vinc120]

Logged in just to upvote your post, very well said.

[Annoying_killah]

100% agree with the op.

[Volinus7]

Good thing about riven mod: It made me install Diablo II and enjoy it again.

[Borg1611]

I think they should have left them out of TWW and maybe spent time coming up with a crafting system for them in a later patch where you can create your own customized mods for your favorite weapons. Complete control over the stats (limited to 3-4?), but with a long progression process for upgrading the mod over time. A grind is fine, but only if it's not a hopeless RNGfest. Let us start with the mods we want and then the grind can be the upgrade process, not the hopeless search. The idea of a super powered mod for your favorite weapons is awesome, but not if you have to face lottery level RNG to get the correct weapon mod + stats + stat rolls you need. 

The level of RNG in the current implementation of Riven mods is worse than Legion (current WoW xpac) legendary drops + D3 stat re-rolling combined. 

[notlamprey]

3 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

I think they should have left them out of TWW and maybe spent time coming up with a crafting system for them in a later patch where you can create your own customized mods for your favorite weapons. Complete control over the stats (limited to 3-4?), but with a long progression process for upgrading the mod over time. A grind is fine, but only if it's not a hopeless RNGfest. Let us start with the mods we want and then the grind can be the upgrade process, not the hopeless search. The idea of a super powered mod for your favorite weapons is awesome, but not if you have to face lottery level RNG to get the correct weapon mod + stats + stat rolls you need. 

The level of RNG in the current implementation of Riven mods is worse than Legion (current WoW xpac) legendary drops + D3 stat re-rolling combined. 

Does anyone here remember the disaster that was "Randomized Kubrow Colors?"

Spoiler

 

Our best hope is that this Riven Mod system is walked back as quickly as can possibly be managed, but I fear there is already too much investment. A hype site has been built, and a hype tweet campaign has begun.