[Spoilers] This is a perfect time for a traditional progression system & ETC for the

[Xarteros]

1 minute ago, EmptyDevil said:

There seems to be a great disparity in your understanding of some aspects of this thread and the intent of it.

The combat strength you're talking about that allows them to stab through thick armor, comes primarily from the mods. The weapons in Warframe are amplified through mods, a technology that bestows a myriad of affects upon a desired tool. Tenno are warriors in general and children grow + adapt better than adults. You merely think they can't develop their physical forms, that is all. Until stated otherwise, they are subject to the basic rules of any organism such as getting stronger. Keep in mind, the intention of this thread, is not to get them to surpass the Warframe. It's to give them some form of base survivability without imposing a specific Focus school on a player.

Again, more speculation. DE has not confirmed they are stuck as children, don't eat, or don't poop. This essentially has zero to do with them getting stronger. In fact, one could argue that if they are pure energy, then they could grow by channeling more energy from the Void. I could speculate that they have no limits to their strength because they are simply physically manifested energy, meaning they should have no biological limits imposed on them. That logic just simply doesn't hold up.

The logical path would be to leave Focus to dictate their Void powers and how they are utilized. Like you said, Focus is their knowledge and experience, so it shouldn't be used as a way to boost physical stats like health. That would be bad design, as you would just be shoehorning people into Vazarin, Unairu, or Madurai(makes no sense for this to have life steal at all) for survivability.

Tenno are beings, period. They have a physical and non-physical form. Growth is the result of training, both physically and mentally. You're free to want Focus to decide everything regarding the Tenno, but that is not what i'm doing here and i do not intend to either. Again, Focus power are fine for defining their powers, but it would be bad design for it to control baseline stats entirely. With that said, i disagree with your idea and will continue to develop and improve my own.

They already don't adhere to any of the basic rules of any organism. They do not age, because they were all alive for a long time in the Orokin era before they got put in their pods on the moon for the Second Dream. We aren't seeing some second generation of Tenno, these are the originals, confirmed by the War Within. They do not die, because they re-manifest themselves after they are reduced to 0 health. They do not need food or drink, nor do they tire. These are direct observations. You could argue that they get food/drink from their chair or whatever, and sleep when we're offline, but the rest is directly observable. There is, in fact, no direct observation at all that they CAN be developed physically, nor does that system particularly suit them regardless of lore.

As to mods making weapons better, that's bad logic. An unranked dagger still pierces the equally thick armour of a low level Grineer trooper. What mods do is to scale the strength up on the same scale that the enemies improve their own gear. Warframes are immensely strong entities, they can survive falls of any height, take immense amounts of punishment, leap long distances and carry huge weapons. Our Tenno take fall damage, have tiny amounts of health, and literally excel at nothing except their mental/Void powers.  Everything about them screams that they are not meant to be heavy, survivable soldiers, and if you want to use them in combat-heavy situations, you need to play smart.

If you want children to be running around slaying high-level enemies with pimped-out swords and daggers, go play a Korean MMO. That kind of gameplay has no place in Warframe, because the Tenno themselves are not warriors. They are the pilots of synthetic bodies that are the actual muscle. It's like saying me as a human is getting stronger by playing Warframe. No, the Warframe is what is strong, but I am the one that guides it. I am the tactician, not the warrior. We are the Tenno, piloting our Warframes, which is why DE calls us Tenno when they address their fans in person. 

You say you don't want them to surpass the Warframes, but you're trying to put them on the same line. The reason I'm opposed to your idea is that they need to remain on their own line. They shouldn't be about surviving damage-heavy combat. They are about huge amounts of raw energy shaped by training and philosophy. Leave the Warframes for the heavy combat, and make the Operators something new, something you can use in combat if you're smart and careful, the same way you can use non-invisible warframes to run stealthily.

The reason I listed ways to get stat improvement from Focus schools is because they already directly apply to Warframes. Using raw Void energy to bolster your own health is just like how Chroma's Fire ward uses energy to boost your max health. It's not a physical progression, it's an application of knowledge to the energy you can manipulate. Chroma isn't suddenly running off to a fitness camp to tone his muscles and boost his stamina, so why should the Tenno?

[low1991]

On 11/20/2016 at 10:19 AM, Xarteros said:

If you want children to be running around slaying high-level enemies with pimped-out swords and daggers, go play a Korean MMO. That kind of gameplay has no place in Warframe, because the Tenno themselves are not warriors. They are the pilots of synthetic bodies that are the actual muscle. It's like saying me as a human is getting stronger by playing Warframe. No, the Warframe is what is strong, but I am the one that guides it. I am the tactician, not the warrior. We are the Tenno, piloting our Warframes, which is why DE calls us Tenno when they address their fans in person. 

But... based from the point of view from anyone whom has no interest in lore, and complete TSD, or maybe even TWW, will be seeing children controlling robots/suits/frames running around killing. (ie, some anime where little children are doing mass murder)

[Xarteros]

59 minutes ago, low1991 said:

But... based from the point of view from anyone whom has no interest in lore, and complete TSD, or maybe even TWW, will be seeing children controlling robots/suits/frames running around killing. (ie, some anime where little children are doing mass murder)

still not as bad as children running around with swords doing flips and being much more combat oriented. Currently it's just some crazy hand lasers and you're very clearly not some kid ninja

[Birdframe_Prime]

Well, I took a good long read through this thread and... I kind of agree with the OP, and I kind of agree with the points from @Danjal777 as well.

The one thing I definitely disagree with on the OP is the levelling cap put on; Warframe has 30 levels for everything, it's a theme, DE aren't going to change that and make an 80 level cap like an MMO. Not going to happen. If they do this, it'll be to 30.

No, I don't believe we should be able to pick up the weapons, no matter how you spin it, the Operators use the Warframes because they can take the hits and don't get tired of swinging heavy objects around. Even a light-weight sword is really tiresome to a child's body, forget the ones like the Furax where you're literally wearing knuckle-dusters and have to punch through enemies. Tenno are the mind, the Warframe are the hand, so let's just put that one away for a while.

But that shouldn't mean the Operators are useless.

The more arguable disagreement with the post is this:

On 14/11/2016 at 8:19 PM, EmptyDevil said:

The Focus System is not a Traditional Progression System and it is not suitable to serve as one. It does however, have the potential to make a great addition to a Traditional Progression System by acting as a Skill-Tree Progression System for Operator powers.

Because it could be.

DE have already said they want to look over the Focus system again and change how it approaches things. Why not use it to augment the Operator as much as the Frame?

Here's the theory I've been working towards, and it's not finished, so maybe hear me out and see if we can expand on it (and I think Danjal was on to something with this);

We simply adjust how the Focus Schools are levelled and used, and they become the levelling system for a Tenno. But! The Schools only affect their abilities, while their level affects their basic stats, like health, shield and speed of recovery, just like on a Warframe.

1. The Operators all gain four base abilities, the primary void blast on 'shoot', the secondary void blast on 'melee', the void walk on 'crouch' and the void dash on 'crouch-jump'.

2. The Focus Schools all have a single Primary function, multiple Triggered functions, and several Passive functions.

All we need to do is combine these two ideas into one progression based system, and we have our working model.

Focus applies to our schools, but it's only triggered through a Focus Lense, thus when we're out of the Warframes and wandering around, we can't earn it. Or can we? Simply make all Affinity gained as the Operator feed directly to Focus, you could make this slower, maybe only a little more than you would earn with Convergence on a Greater Lense (since a warframe would earn more, but you have to build your Greater Lense from other lenses you get from Sorties). The balance, of course, is that even though you can earn more Focus than a Lense can, you're squishy as all heck to start off with.

When you choose a school, your Primary fire, the void laser, doesn't change, it still remains your basic ability, but your secondary blast changes to become the aspect of the school you've chosen. It uses up all your charge per use, and is similar to Danjal's idea. Vazarin becomes a direct heal burst to a target (any allied target, since Vazarin heals everything), Madurai becomes a short burst of Phoenix Gaze, Zenurik lifts a single target, Unairu turns a single target to stone and Naramon casts chaos on a single target.

Levelling your schools then puts more aspects of the school into the Operator's abilities and actions. I'll get to that.

As you put points into the school your Operator levels. Much like a warframe with mod-points you get 30 base points, plus the Aura (and if you notice, all focus trees have 10 nodes outside of the primary, of three points each, which is 30 levels plus the equivalent of an Aura), you level your operator up by feeding in Focus into the tree. Each Node, therefore, costs points (much as it does currently, eg Vazarin's Retaliation costing 10 points at max) and you have to balance which nodes you activate, and to what level you activate them, to get the best 'build' for your Operator.

The kicker between basic Affinity and Focus levelling is that we specifically level our main school only in Operator mode, and to level a different school we have to unlock it through the Lenses we earn or buy, then equip it in the base state (much like a new warframe or weapon) and be a weak little Tenno again while we start levelling it.

And here's survivability we wanted; much like a Warframe's health and energy level, the Operators do too. Not by much, but with a starting health of 100, a max health of 400 wouldn't be too much to ask. 400 health, plus a Void energy Shield of the same amount? That's as survivable as the base frames are, more so when you can just crouch to go invis.

Most importantly for some of us (probably all of us) the levelling up reduces the amount of energy drained from your warframe when the operator is 'killed'. So at base, all of your energy is drained, and at max rank, only 50% of your max energy is drained. There's still a penalty, but it makes it more manageable once you're fully levelled up.

I mentioned how the abilities change, so here's this for an idea; we'll use Vazarin as an example, since it was the first high-quality image I found to actually use for reference.

Levelling up Mending Tides is equivalent to levelling up an Aura mod, it gives you mod points, on top of your base, or can be used to activate more nodes earlier in the levelling cycle. It also boosts the amount of healing your secondary blast does per use on a target.
Mending Tides Mastery not only reduces the time between uses of Mending Tides, it reduces your cooldown on Void Powers, so you can use the healing burst more often in Operator mode.
Mending Shower improves the range while Polluted Waters can insta-revive with the annoying chance to inflict status debuffs. Strengthen Defenses and Guardian Presence would also add to this, by restoring Shields, and by granting that ranged protection shell for the short duration.
Meanwhile the Passives become active while using Void Walk (invis) so Retaliation, Disciplined Approach and New Moon only activate when you go Invis, allowing for one Instant Revive (by pressing X while crouched, breaking your stealth), reducing any accidental damage by up to 10%, and also extending Affinity Range.
One I like is when you would unlock Protection Ward and Commanding Words, which would trigger on Void Dash, so that at the other end of it, your target, you create that ward circle that is a self-protection and create a stun ward for an enemy that charges you, giving you time to recharge.

As you go from 0-30, you gain points to unlock these different aspects, and you can put some points into levelling the base ability to gain a few more, and while your Operator's survivability and their main damage increase with your level, the School changes what your other abilities do.

So you have that tactical choice, be in Operator form as a squishy, energy blast throwing Tenno, with low survivability and lots of cool, short-term interactions with other players and enemies, or charge up the Focus meter and release it all in a big burst that charges your Warframe with the passives and buffs that you need to go further into the game.

Level your Tenno through Focus and the Schools, make the Tenno more interactive to use, choose between using the Warframe with the Release burst to make it better, or the Operator to augment the Warframe's play style by having mini-doses of the Release power on demand.

Do you think there's any merit to that? I'm trying to tie it into the existing styles that DE use now, and still keep it feeling like Focus and the Operator, so we have a reason to use both, but also a valid excuse not to.

[EmptyDevil]

You kinda just wasted some time typing all of that out. Because it seems like you didn't fully understand what you were quoting and replying to. You basically agree with my view of the Focus system, but then go on to think that i somehow meant DE shouldn't attach it to Operators? Where did you get that idea?

46 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

We simply adjust how the Focus Schools are levelled and used, and they become the levelling system for a Tenno. But! The Schools only affect their abilities, while their level affects their basic stats, like health, shield and speed of recovery, just like on a Warframe.

1. The Operators all gain four base abilities, the primary void blast on 'shoot', the secondary void blast on 'melee', the void walk on 'crouch' and the void dash on 'crouch-jump'.

2. The Focus Schools all have a single Primary function, multiple Triggered functions, and several Passive functions.

All we need to do is combine these two ideas into one progression based system, and we have our working model.

See the quoted and highlighted above? That is what i meant in the quote below: 

On 11/14/2016 at 3:19 PM, EmptyDevil said:

Why not use the Focus System as a progression system instead/Focus System is the progression system for Operators?

The Focus System is not a Traditional Progression System and it is not suitable to serve as one. It does however, have the potential to make a great addition to a Traditional Progression System by acting as a Skill-Tree Progression System for Operator powers.

Traditional Progression: Mainly concerned with leveling up to gain stats to increase the base. Basic character leveling system seen on Warframes, Kubrows, and Kavats.

Skill-Tree Progression: Mainly concerned with leveling skills/abilities/powers to increase their effectiveness, change their effects, and ETC. The Focus system.

Traditional Progression + Skill-tree Progression = More in-depth Progression

Operator leveling system + Focus system = Complete Operator Progression

Are we still on the same page? Or are you in disagreement?

 

Also, don't make a fuss over the level cap. I did say it was simply to demonstrate the concept. DE will be the one to work on the details. Preferably, i'd like it to take more than a day to reach max level on the Operator:

On 11/14/2016 at 3:19 PM, EmptyDevil said:

Now without further ado, the...

Operator Progression System

*Values are there for demonstration of concept.

[Birdframe_Prime]

29 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

Are we still on the same page? Or are you in disagreement?

I think I explained myself badly then. I do that when I'm doped up on cold medicine XD

Forgive my rambling. Now, let's try and clear up where I stand on this:

You see, I was trying to combine the two concepts of 'operator progression' and 'ability progression', yet have fixed, but optional, gains, rather than a tech-tree of in-depth customisation.

From where I stand I definitely don't want the Operators themselves to be... well... modded, not by anything we as players do. Progression through the levels from 0-30 should result in a fixed gain in stats, depending on what School you choose (maybe Vazarin gives more base health than Madurai, or similar), the same way an un-modded Ember has different stats to an un-modded Atlas, and then any abilities that the Schools unlock should not influence those stats further, just what the abilities do and how well/often they can be done.

My theory was to say that I would love progression through the Focus system to affect things that the Operators do, and I would also love to see the Operators become a little more durable, maybe level up in their own Mastery, but on the contrary, I do not want any kind of tech tree that changes the Operator themselves, they aren't machines.

I didn't want to get caught in a concept where those who farmed Focus all the time would have massively beefy Operators that could effectively replace running with a Warframe, nor did I want to have any build for an Operator become (as it is now with Focus Schools) the over-powered one that everyone uses, which DE then has to re-balance every time a new weapon or exploitable node comes along.

Thus my thought was simple; Focus Schools now become separate 'pools' for defining your Operator's level; you put Focus in from the base pool you create from Warframe focus farming, or you jump out as an Operator and earn for your primary school direct. Based on how much Focus you put into the School's pool, your Operator's level is affected when you equip that School as your Primary.

You feed in Focus into your Primary School, just like you feed Affinity into a Warframe, and your Operator's stats (read; the Operator's level) increase with the School. This is because the more Focus they have in the School, the more powerful they are compared to a Tenno that has no Focus earned. At rank 30, all the nodes on the School are unlocked and optional to activate, depending on how much the nodes themselves cost, and your Operator has reached their maximum health/shield/energy pool etc.

Unlock a new School, using the Warframe/weapon-mounted Lenses, though, and equip that new one as your Primary, your Operator is now working with an empty Focus pool and so their level is reduced back to 0. Of course, if you want to, you can simply make the original School your Primary again, and you're working with a full Focus pool and are back to max rank.

If we were to introduce some form of Forma system, though, it would mean that eventually you could equip and use all the aspects of the School at the same time, and have a comparatively shorter 'charge' time for it than we would have under the current system (at max of everything it's approximately 9-10 minutes charge time on Focus abilities). That would ensure that this end-game levelling system would progress even further.

But again, the risk/reward is that the Operators never get more durable than a basic Warframe, and are purely reliant on their Tenno powers outside of their Warframes.

See? I'm trying to build the system we have now into a progression system, without making the Tenno themselves customisable using it.

[EmptyDevil]

Updated the OP with a little more.