[Riven Mods] What is IMHO missing in the whole system

[Xardis]

What I would like to see is transparency. I get it, its supposed to be something new and cryptic, but in terms of lore, not mechanics. I would also like for this sytem to seamlesly transition into new damage system that DE is supposedly working on for some time (SOON^TM). This is not the case if you just put +pure damage on those mods. So lets get to the changes I would perpose:

1 - exclude +X% damage effect, not elemental or IPS. Also, exclude IPS effects from pure elemental weapons and only use relevent stats to punish if there is a negative effect.

2 - allow to reroll weapon of the mod. Preferably make it so that the weapon you used to unvail the mod would be the weapon this mod would be for.

3 - allow to reroll individual stats.

4 - standardise stat value so that each effect stats wouldnt be based on rng with their value. Its mostly for balance, there is bound to be someone who got/will get a mod for Tygris Prime that will add so much damage that it would 1 shot lvl 150 heavy enemies.

5 - make mods have either 2 or 4 stat, the first being always 2 positive and 2nd - 3 positive and 1 negative.

6 - remove additive cost for rerolling stats, its punishing you for not being lucky, as if unwanted stats and prospect of having to reroll it yet again wasnt bad enought.

The costs for this new system:

Reroll of stats - base 800 kuva +200 kuva per stat you decided to keep.

Reroll of weapon - 1000 kuva (or even 1600/2000).

Adding 1 positive effect and 1 negative to 2 effect mod - 400 kuva.

Removing 1 positive and 1 negative effect from 4 effect mod - 200 kuva.

Also, I would agree in most part with this opinion

 

Edited November 16, 2016 by Xardis

[Cyandana]

All these things seem like an improvement overall.

Though TBH, I think Rivet mods were an AWFUL mistake that should have waited till Damage 3.0 anyway. Would rather see them postponed/removed in the meantime.

Only reason I'm kind of okay with the right now is there are SO MANY bad rifles and we have only Rivet rifle mods at the moment... However, with things like the Amprex/Tonkor getting absurd mods as well, I think we're in for the quite the power creep roller coaster in the next few months. 

[Sitchrea]

3 minutes ago, Cyandana said:

All these things seem like an improvement overall.

Though TBH, I think Rivet mods were an AWFUL mistake that should have waited till Damage 3.0 anyway. Would rather see them postponed/removed in the meantime.

Only reason I'm kind of okay with the right now is there are SO MANY bad rifles and we have only Rivet rifle mods at the moment... However, with things like the Amprex/Tonkor getting absurd mods as well, I think we're in for the quite the power creep roller coaster in the next few months. 

^this^

[Cyandana]

I just can't wait for the first perfect "4 Line" Synoid Simulor mod.

Welcome to Frame-ablo III !

... sigh, DE. Please lmao. 

[Norgur]

On 14.11.2016 at 9:44 PM, Cyandana said:

I just can't wait for the first perfect "4 Line" Synoid Simulor mod.

Welcome to Frame-ablo III !

... sigh, DE. Please lmao. 

My words exactly. Let's go rerolling all the f*cking day.

[JericoHellsangel]

On 14.11.2016 at 9:28 PM, Xardis said:

What I would like to see is transparency. I get it, its supposed to be something new and cryptic, but in terms of lore, not mechanics. I would also like for this sytem to seamlesly transition into new damage system that DE is supposedly working on for some time (SOON^TM). This is not the case if you just put +pure damage on those mods. So lets get to the changes I would perpose:

1 - exclude +X% damage effect, not elemental or IPS. Also, exclude IPS effects from pure elemental weapons and only use relevent stats to punish if there is a negative effect.

2 - allow to reroll weapon of the mod. Preferably make it so that the weapon you used to unvail the mod would be the weapon this mod would be for.

3 - allow to reroll individual stats.

4 - standardise stat value so that each effect stats wouldnt be based on rng with their value. Its mostly for balance, there is bound to be someone who got/will get a mod for Tygris Prime that will add so much damage that it would 1 shot lvl 150 heavy enemies.

5 - make mods have either 2 or 4 stat, the first being always 2 positive and 2nd - 3 positive and 1 negative.

6 - remove additive cost for rerolling stats, its punishing you for not being lucky, as if unwanted stats and prospect of having to reroll it yet again wasnt bad enought.

The costs for this new system:

Reroll of stats - base 800 kuva +200 kuva per stat you decided to keep.

Reroll of weapon - 1000 kuva (or even 1600/2000).

Adding 1 positive effect and 1 negative to 2 effect mod - 400 kuva.

Removing 1 positive and 1 negative effect from 4 effect mod - 200 kuva.

1. Agree with that, it is pretty pointless to get +% impact on a paracyst but it also has the upside that if you get 3 or even 4 stats that the negetive stats is litterly -% impact, thus having technicly NO negetive effects.

2. Disagree, you could just trade it for a mod you want or just sell it for endo or plat. I personally have no problems with getting a mod for a rifle that i don´t use because it maybe it would make me reuse that weapon for atleast a while and if i still don´t like that then just do the things i wrote before. (i personally like the concept of the Grakata being a sub machine gun but the stats are not quite there yet for sorties but if i had a mod which would increast status chance, crit chance and lower recoil, i would be 100% down to play with it again)

3. I agree 100% with that, i would even pay 1000 Kuva to lock down each stat to atleast limit the RNG in my favor. i think it would be a perfect reroll system if every Reroll would be only 1000 kuva and not higher but locking each stat would cost an additional 1000 kuva per stat per reroll. That would still be a big farmfest but atleast i would have a realistic goal to go for and be satisfied then paying more and more until like 2500 kuva or what was it after the 10th reroll and all 2-4 stats would be completly random.

4. tbh, with a 100% Slash, viral build, it´s allready possible. But with those mods, others can do that too, but yeah some values are really really off like +200% crit chance and +150% multishot on a tonkor as if it needs it >.>

5. I agree with 3 positive and 1 negetive. maybe even adding 1000 more kuva for having 3 positive and 1 negetive and then constantly reroll the negetive until it´s something the weapon itself dosn´t need... like crit chance for ogris.

[Xardis]

16 minutes ago, JericoHellsangel said:

1. Agree with that, it is pretty pointless to get +% impact on a paracyst but it also has the upside that if you get 3 or even 4 stats that the negetive stats is litterly -% impact, thus having technicly NO negetive effects.

2. Disagree, you could just trade it for a mod you want or just sell it for endo or plat. I personally have no problems with getting a mod for a rifle that i don´t use because it maybe it would make me reuse that weapon for atleast a while and if i still don´t like that then just do the things i wrote before. (i personally like the concept of the Grakata being a sub machine gun but the stats are not quite there yet for sorties but if i had a mod which would increast status chance, crit chance and lower recoil, i would be 100% down to play with it again)

3. I agree 100% with that, i would even pay 1000 Kuva to lock down each stat to atleast limit the RNG in my favor. i think it would be a perfect reroll system if every Reroll would be only 1000 kuva and not higher but locking each stat would cost an additional 1000 kuva per stat per reroll. That would still be a big farmfest but atleast i would have a realistic goal to go for and be satisfied then paying more and more until like 2500 kuva or what was it after the 10th reroll and all 2-4 stats would be completly random.

4. tbh, with a 100% Slash, viral build, it´s allready possible. But with those mods, others can do that too, but yeah some values are really really off like +200% crit chance and +150% multishot on a tonkor as if it needs it >.>

5. I agree with 3 positive and 1 negetive. maybe even adding 1000 more kuva for having 3 positive and 1 negetive and then constantly reroll the negetive until it´s something the weapon itself dosn´t need... like crit chance for ogris.

You missed the point with for the changes I perposed - the negative effect, what I meant was to make it meaningfull, every time. So you can have nice, almost OP dual stat mod or you can have even one extra at the cost of one negative. What I meant was to exclude effects from weapons that dont have those - both negative and positive. And make the negative effect be always a drawback, like less firerate for bows instead of magazine capacity for them.

[Snowbluff]

I don't want raw damage exclude it buffs status damage and things like night watch napalm. Or are you trying to ruin the system by making some status weapons have no viable bonus?

[JericoHellsangel]

Just now, Xardis said:

You missed the point with for the changes I perposed - the negative effect, what I meant was to make it meaningfull, every time. So you can have nice, almost OP dual stat mod or you can have even one extra at the cost of one negative. What I meant was to exclude effects from weapons that dont have those - both negative and positive. And make the negative effect be always a drawback, like less firerate for bows instead of magazine capacity for them.

Ah, damn yeah now i see, yeah that would be even better either raw strength or more utility but a downside thats better indeed.

[HarissonLA]

2 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

I don't want raw damage exclude it buffs status damage and things like night watch napalm. Or are you trying to ruin the system by making some status weapons have no viable bonus?

Status is in the game not for damage. Look at Viral, Cold, Blast, Impact status. Are those for damage?

[Snowbluff]

1 minute ago, HarissonLA said:

Status is in the game not for damage. Look at Viral, Cold, Blast, Impact status. Are those for damage?

Status is in the game for damage. Look at slash, gas, toxin, and fire status. Are those not for damage?

Edited November 16, 2016 by Snowbluff

[HarissonLA]

1 minute ago, Snowbluff said:

Status is in the game for damage. Look at slash, gas, toxin, and fire status. Are those not for damage?

Do you have not enough mods for increasing damage of those elementals? How about high slash with +120% mod? Not an option anymore?

[Snowbluff]

Just now, HarissonLA said:

Do you have not enough mods for increasing damage of those elementals? How about high slash with +120% mod? Not an option anymore?

Slash does it's damage based on... uh... base damage. Only mods like serration improve it. D:

[JericoHellsangel]

2 minutes ago, HarissonLA said:

Status is in the game not for damage. Look at Viral, Cold, Blast, Impact status. Are those for damage?

 

1 minute ago, Snowbluff said:

Status is in the game for damage. Look at slash, gas, toxin, and fire status. Are those not for damage?

Status can either inflict cc, passive or active damage. Active damage would be Slash, toxin etc which activly puts a dot on enemies while Viral, corrosive add passive damage since they remove a part of the defence and allow for more active damage (or even radiation in the case of antient healers with their damage reduction auras)

Status builds require mods which are easy to lvl up but harder to get since the dual stat mods can only be farmed at corrupted vor, spy missions or when baro sells them. But good status builds are Endgame builds because of the redicilous enemy and armor scaling.

[Snowbluff]

Good point about viral and corrosive. My thoughts exactly.

how will you address that base damage is the best way to improve status mods?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

On 11/14/2016 at 3:28 PM, Xardis said:

3 - allow to reroll individual stats.

Like I said before, this would be extremely OP.

[Xardis]

2 hours ago, JericoHellsangel said:

Ah, damn yeah now i see, yeah that would be even better either raw strength or more utility but a downside thats better indeed.

Ok, so your point is to make this system as OP as possible. Sorry, I came from the idea that this system would allow you to change the playstyle of some weapons, as DE stated some time ago in their dev workshop. Not just buff them exponentialy. What was the point of corrupted mods again?

As to base damage and status. There can be an effect added that multiplies effect power of status pros. That would be much better than just pure damage since it would actualy do as DE stated they wanted to do but failed to deliver.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Xardis

[JericoHellsangel]

1 hour ago, Xardis said:

Ok, so your point is to make this system as OP as possible. Sorry, I came from the idea that this system would allow you to change the playstyle of some weapons, as DE stated some time ago in their dev workshop. Not just buff them exponentialy. What was the point of corrupted mods again?

As to base damage and status. There can be an effect added that multiplies effect power of status pros. That would be much better than just pure damage since it would actualy do as DE stated they wanted to do but failed to deliver.

the mod that i wan´t the most anyway is a braton mod with punchthrough, loads of status and good reload speed buff XD If i would get that, i´ll be a happy tenno.

Also, i don´t want to make weapons op, i stated often enough that tonkor does not need riven mods at all. The thing that i want is to push not endgame viable weapons into endgame viability so with the help of a Riven mods, the weapon is atleast on paar with soma p or other similar powerhouses.

Edited November 16, 2016 by JericoHellsangel

[Peacemuser]

I really like the risk and direction that DE is trying to make. However, there is definitely a couple of implementation problems.

The first big problem involves the heavy amount of RNG this system involves. Acquiring these mods involves a RNG roll in the sorties and the type of weapon it is tied to. There is another set of RNG behind the types of challenges, and another for the mod stats. If the mod doesn't improve the weapon's stats in any way (which can most likely happen to a vast majority of players), they would have to attempt to find Kuva, which is in itself another process of RNG to re-do another cycle of RNG. While the intentions are to motivate achievement and innovations, not all mod can be worked around, especially for specific weapons (Miter can't take advantage of critical chance and damage, unless critical chance is additive). The Riven Disposition is suppose to prevent a power creep towards meta-based weapons, and the challenges would limit the pace of such re-rolls. Xardis' suggestion gives a pretty good direction of controlling some of the RNG to give a more consistent and desirable result, while ensuring variety and experimentation.

Currently, The Riven mod cap is pretty unnecessary. There's more than 15 different Rifle-type weapons, around 21. This isn't including beam-type weapons, snipers, and launchers, on top of the fact that some people would like to have more than one Riven mod per weapon for different play-styles. Then there's also other types of Riven mods that DE has yet to release, including Shotgun, Pistol, and Melee mods. The fact that there's a heafty emphasis on RNG with a large combination of stats and weapons is already a reason to mainly ensure players to most likely keep their Riven mods, apart from trading. If anything, being able to have unlimited Riven mods provides more encouragement to use more varieties of weapons without being bound as "mastery fodder", and possibly fun ways for meta-based weapons (zero damage Ignis status build, fast reload Tonkor, large Magazine Rubico, etc). It encourages people to keep more weapons, which might correlate to more investment in weapon slots (more money for DE).

Another minute problem includes the difficulty of the challenges. Ideally the difficulty of the challenge is tied to the Mastery Rank of the outputted mod, and the Mastery Rank requirement also determines the Mod's power. However, players with lower Mastery Ranks might receive extremely difficult challenges, only to be ineligible for use once completed unless they'd like to keep it for future use (referring back to the mod cap). It would be nice if challenges was randomly generated to include three random different challenges of easy, medium, or hard difficulty for each roll that the player can choose from. RNG is still there, but some control is provided.

The riven disposition currently seems strangely implemented as well. Supposedly the type of weapon that the mod is tied to also affects the power of the stats, where supposedly weaker, lower leveled weapons with lower mastery rank are more likely to get stronger stats. As mentioned in this video, this doesn't seem to be entirely the case. Hopefully they tweak it appropriately in the future.

Some people wanted to see new and more unique stats in these mods. A current example is Status Damage, which is unseen in other mods and really nice for Slash and Gas proc builds. However, people would like to see more exclusive and unique stats. Examples include but not limited to Headshot/Weakspot Damage, healing percentage per shot, combo damage, combined elements, armor-piercing, shield-penetration, status effectiveness, accuracy, conditional stats, additive physical damage (much like how elemental damage work), hit-box size, additive blast-radius, projectile bounce (being able to damage multiple times), projectile tracking, etc. The sky is pretty much the limit here! With the proper implementation of the Riven Disposition and a larger room for experimentation and combination, the game wouldn't have to worry about the chances of the majority of players achieving Rank 30 Tigris Prime mods with an insane amount of damage, additive critical chance, critical damage, and status damage.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Peacemuser

[Dracario]

21 hours ago, Peacemuser said:

Some people wanted to see new and more unique stats in these mods. A current example is Status Damage, which is unseen in other mods and really nice for Slash and Gas proc builds. However, people would like to see more exclusive and unique stats. Examples include but not limited to Headshot/Weakspot Damage, healing percentage per shot, combo damage, combined elements, armor-piercing, shield-penetration, status effectiveness, accuracy, conditional stats, additive physical damage (much like how elemental damage work), hit-box size, additive blast-radius, projectile bounce (being able to damage multiple times), projectile tracking, etc. The sky is pretty much the limit here! With the proper implementation of the Riven Disposition and a larger room for experimentation and combination, the game wouldn't have to worry about the chances of the majority of players achieving Rank 30 Tigris Prime mods with an insane amount of damage, additive critical chance, critical damage, and status damage.

I whole heartily agree to this.

[3thereal]

Also a HUGE point they miss is mods can be applied to weapon SERIES. Which means I'll NEVER use a Braton when I can use the same mod on Braton Prime unless the stats on the mod itself change based on which weapon is equipped. Either way it's a poorly designed system that will we be living with for a while.

[Xardis]

This system does have huge possibilites. For those who can actualy get the mod to begin with. I myself did every sortie since the update has dropped and on every of them I got 2000 endo, when I have 160k already, or something like that. The fact that you can roll it once a day and you cannot change the weapon that the mod is bound to is making some people rich, other happy and majority miserable. This shouldnt be from sorties. This should drop from Kuva fortress. Im ok with it being locked to a specific weapon IF I can get it relibly, like spy, and IF there is no limit to how much of them I can actualy have. And this is presuming that weapon inital roll excludes weapons for which you already have a riven mod. Yes I am salty that I cant get any, and I have every right to be, this is another RNG locked behind RNG that has once per cycle restriction, and the first RNG is not normal RNG, its RNG^5. Getting anything is tricky, getting something usefull is near impossible.