Mathy Fun. Why Crit Is Mostly Useless

[cknives]

So after seing the datamined stats i decided to do a bit of math to see if crit is ever worth it. ( i could be wrong ofc)

 

First off:

 

Pistol,melee,shotgun crit mods are garbage and never worth it. (on current weapons. Maybe a 50% crit chance might make them worth it)

 

 

Only Rifle crit is left.

 

 

Facts:

 

crit dmg mod is 120%

 

crit chance mod is 150% of base.

 

A fully loaded rifle moded for max dps uses:

 

Split chamber

Serration

Speed trigger

Hellfire

Stormbringer

Cryorounds

Armore Piercing

 

Thats 7 mods

 

If you wanted to add both crit chance and dmg you would have to swap 1 out.

 

My calculations are done based on a mob that takes 100% dmg from all sources and a weapon with  9 mod slots(simplicity) to be able to use all elementals + crit chance,crit dmg. This favors crit.

 

In the actual game you could sawp out hellfire or stormbringer depending on what your killing.

 

 

 

The Guns:

 

Below 10% base crit isnt even worth doing math for.

 

 

So the only guns still standing are:

 

Latron prime 10% 150%

Snipetron 20% 150%

Vulkar 20% 150%

Dread 10% 200%

Paris 10% 150%

 

 

The DPS:

 

With maxed mods.

 

Latron prime: Both crit mods together do almost as much dps as the 60% AP mod alone. The Reload speed mod instead does nearly 2x more dps.

 

Paris: Same as latron

 

Snipetron: Both crit mods  together do a little more dmg than one 90% elemental would do. Reload speed still beats it by a little.

 

Vulkar: Same as snipetron

 

Dread: Both crit mods together do about 2x more dmg than the AP mod. And beat reload speed by a little. If AP mod is removed to make room for both crit mods. Then the benefit drops below reload speed again but still barely beats a 90% elemental with BOTH crit mods.

 

note* im not sure if Dread even benefits from a reload speed mod. If it doesnt then a crit chance mod would add a little dps for the 8th slot.

 

 

 

Conclusion:

 

When maxing for DPS even a fully formad rifle does not benefit from crit mods.( reload speed is almost always better dps for just 1 mod slot)

 

The Dread is the only weapon that got even close to making use of crit mods.

 

This gets even worse if you dont have all 3 90% elementals equiped since crit scales of total dmg.

 

 

Possible uses:

 

I could see them being used on a Dread for max dmg per shot instead of dps to conserve ammo....i guess.

[MrOmacX]

Hmm interesting.

[Aspari]

Crit mods would be nice if they gave a flat bonus instead of a % bonus.

[JoeHook]

Grakata has 15% crit chance

 

Dread and Paris have 20% chance on charge, so that changed calculations quite a bit.

 

I 100% agree though that there just needs to be more guns that have more than 10% chance.

[Blatantfool]

I feel like my Latron Prime still does pretty great with the Crit mods but I've long figured the Crit Mods are still fairly weak. I think the Crit Damage mods need to be buffed by a healthy amount.

[Hayden11121]

Wrong information about the paris.

 

An uncharged shot has 10% chance of crit. A charged shot has a 20% chance.

 

You forget point strike, which ends at effectively 150% + crit chance. Meaning anything 20% is instantly 50%. Now go back and look at your snipers, see what would happen with a 90% chance of multishot, max serration, crit chance, and 100% crit damage is added on top.

 

For the paris you would get 45 + 165% = 45 + 74 = 119 x2 *for multishot* = 238

When added with a 150% charge damage strike, you get 238 + 150% = 357

With Vital Sense at 100%, you get 357 + 100% = 714

 

Let's stop right there.

Multishot = 15 mod points

Serration = 14

Vital Sense = 9

Point Strike = 9

 

So for 47 mod points you get an average of 714 per crit, at 50%+ *due to multishot* chance with 13 mod points left if supercharged.

 

With Paris with elements you get 45 + 90% = 45 + 40 = 85

Let's say we are shooting an average corpus. Not in the head. So you get 45+ 160% *electricity* for 74 + 45 = 139

Now with AP at 60% you get 27 more damage. Making this 166 damage.

Now with Fire you get (45 + 90%) - 60% = 34 damage. Adding up to 166 + 34 = 200

Now with frost you get (90% + 45) - 20% = 68 damage, adding with the above for 268 damage.

 

268 + 125% = 710, when mixed with multishot gives 1,420 damage, before crit, which equals up to 150%+ damage which equals 3550.

 

Multishot = 15 mod points

Serration = 14

Hellfire = 11

Frost = 9

AP = 9

Electricity = 11

 

Let us stop there. So for 59 mod points we have multishot arrows giving 1,420 damage. and a 20%+ crit chance of dealing 3550

 

TL;DR I did a lot of math. A crit for a crit based paris costs 47 mod points and 714 damage per crit. An elemental mod equipped at 59 mod point gives 1,420 damage per arrow, and albeit a lower chance to crit, can do crits of 3,550.

 

This truly is unfair, for even the highest ranked "Crit Chance" rifle, it isn't good.

[IcarusNine]

Because crits stack with all other bonuses, including elemental damage, you can use it to get even more armor piercing and/or armor ignoring damage, which may be more beneficial than bringing a fire or electric mod against certain enemies.  Of course, crits are inherently bursty and overkill prone, so any benefit from crits mainly occurs against tougher enemies.  (Sadly for the grakata, all enemies are tough enemies.)

 

It's also worth noting that the crit mods are much stronger together than individually.

The Latron, for example, is 50% stronger when it has crit both mods, but with Crit Chance alone it's only 7% stronger, and with Crit Damage alone it's 17% stronger.

[cknives]

If Dread has 20% crit chance on a full charge then the crit mods are def worth it for the dread. And ok on the paris.

 

*edit: Assuming charge time is worth it for max DPS.

Edited July 1, 2013 by cknives

[Ashnal]

I would like to see some more realistic scenarios looked at..

 

For instance, If I'm fighting high level grineer their armor is going to reduce fire, electric, and freeze damage by a significant amount.

Would replacing these mods with crit surpass the typical loadout for damage considering armor on the various enemy types?

 

For high level enemies, wouldn't more crits of the damage type they are weak to be preferable to measly amounts of damage that they have armor against? Please do a full calculation for a level 80 grineer lancer, who has 200 base armor (and bonus armor from levels) vs. all non-AP damage.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Ashnal

[cknives]

Because crits stack with all other bonuses, including elemental damage, you can use it to get even more armor piercing and/or armor ignoring damage, which may be more beneficial than bringing a fire or electric mod against certain enemies.  Of course, crits are inherently bursty and overkill prone, so any benefit from crits mainly occurs against tougher enemies.  (Sadly for the grakata, all enemies are tough enemies.)

 

It's also worth noting that the crit mods are much stronger together than individually.

The Latron, for example, is 50% stronger when it has crit both mods, but with Crit Chance alone it's only 7% stronger, and with Crit Damage alone it's 17% stronger.

 

If you read the OP all of that is considered :)

 

 

The latron gets a 15% crit chance bonus and a 120% crit dmg bonus.

 

Thats a 18% dmg increase across the board. Nothing to write home about for 2 mod slots considering fast hands gives 30% lol.

[Sixty5]

You forgot the Grakata has 15% crit chance and 200% crit damage. That goes to 38% and 440% with mods, with its high rate of fire and such this results in alot of extra damage.

 

Furthermore the real viability of crit builds is seen against high level enemies (200 or so). These enemies take next to nothing from most damage types, meaning that to maximize damage you want to do as much damage from the sources that do hit them hard. To use the above example, with my setup for the Grakata I deal about 1k armour piercing DPS, which is only resisted by infested runners, who always take regular damage anyway.

[cknives]

Grakata has 15% crit chance

 

Dread and Paris have 20% chance on charge, so that changed calculations quite a bit.

 

I 100% agree though that there just needs to be more guns that have more than 10% chance.

According to the datamined stats grataka has 7.5% so i did not include it. If it does have 15% and 200% crit dmg it would fair pretty well and crit mods would be an OK option but not amazing.

[Sixty5]

According to the datamined stats grataka has 7.5% so i did not include it. If it does have 15% and 200% crit dmg it would fair pretty well and crit mods would be an OK option but not amazing.

 

Numbers for it are wrong on that sheet, DE stated 15% in the buff, and from experience with max mods its about 40% crit chance from my testing.

[cknives]

I ran the #s for grataka. I went and replaced the 60% AP mod with the crit mods.  Between both of the mods they do 250dps (per shot) A single 90% elemental does 137, the 60% ap would do 117 the reload speed would do 146dps. So it seems you would be better off with AP + reload speed but its very close.

 

 

As far as i can tell from the wiki the 120% crit dmg is a flat bonus applied after the regular crit dmg.

 

"Critical damage = (final damage) * (base critical multiplier) * (1 + mod value)"

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Vital_Sense

[azour]

So my math skills suck but i seem to do crits quite often with my Paris,crit change boosted to 125%(i dont get why 100% doesnt mean always)

[krisp]

Snipetron: Both crit mods  together do a little more dmg than one 90% elemental would do. Reload speed still beats it by a little.

 

...in theory. In practice, the elemental damage will always be better against a certain faction (out of 3), and a crit with the subsequent 300%+ damage will mean you have an opportunity to 1shot tough, high-level mobs such as ancients. Since the snipetron does full AP damage, shooting ancients in the head will yield more benefit than shooting them in the foot, and since electrical does nothing and fire/cold decrease with level, for a dedicated ancient-killer you'll want crit mods on since they don't diminish as enemy levels go up.

 

Works well on grineer minibosses too.

 

 

As far as i can tell from the wiki the 120% crit dmg is a flat bonus applied after the regular crit dmg.

 

"Critical damage = (final damage) * (base critical multiplier) * (1 + mod value)"

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Vital_Sense

 

 

That formula is for a multiplicative effect, not additive. And it is multiplicative, 100 damage with a +100% crit mod will do 300 damage (150%x100 + 100%x150%x100), not 250 ((150% + 100%)x100). This is tested and all.

Edited July 1, 2013 by krisp

[Fretless]

So my math skills suck but i seem to do crits quite often with my Paris,crit change boosted to 125%(i dont get why 100% doesnt mean always)

The mod bonus is multiplicative, not additive.

[Notso]

Crit mods would be nice if they gave a flat bonus instead of a % bonus.

 

You mean like damage mods?

[cknives]

...in theory. In practice, the elemental damage will always be better against a certain faction (out of 3), and a crit with the subsequent 300%+ damage will mean you have an opportunity to 1shot tough, high-level mobs such as ancients. Since the snipetron does full AP damage, shooting ancients in the head will yield more benefit than shooting them in the foot, and since electrical does nothing and fire/cold decrease with level, for a dedicated ancient-killer you'll want crit mods on since they don't diminish as enemy levels go up.

 

Works well on grineer minibosses too.

 

 

 

 

That formula is for a multiplicative effect, not additive. And it is multiplicative, 100 damage with a +100% crit mod will do 300 damage (150%x100 + 100%x150%x100), not 250 ((150% + 100%)x100). This is tested and all.

 

 

I ran my calculation like 100dmg +50% = 150 +100% = 300

 

So i guess i did do it right.

[Notso]

As Sixty5 has said - apart from the Grakata [which always has higher DPS with a crit build than not], and the bows [which are better for single shot damage with a crit build], crit builds are only viable against very high level enemies where the potential doubling of AP damage outweighs the gain of damage from other damage mods [which at high levels is minimal due to resistances].

 

Also, why not just use the DPS calc program?

Edited July 1, 2013 by Notso

[cknives]

Crit mods just need a slight buff to make them a clear choice for the mentioned weapons. And a BIG buff(change) to use them with other weapons.

[Aishi]

I think the real question is how are you not a liability on your team with a Grakata at lv 200 mob waves.

And it seems like the only viable melee weapon to use a crit build on would be Dual Zorens, crit damage moreso because of its huge but unlikely burst potential. Lets not leave out the cookie cutter melee mod builds, they're 95% the same after all with how crappy the Electric elemental % is and Pressure point being the way it is now and only viable on armor ignore normals like Dual Ethers and Kogake (Even the armor ignore Fraggor is a stretch).

Edited July 1, 2013 by Aishi

[cknives]

As Sixty5 has said - apart from the Grakata [which always has higher DPS with a crit build than not], and the bows [which are better for single shot damage with a crit build], crit builds are only viable against very high level enemies where the potential doubling of AP damage outweighs the gain of damage from other damage mods [which at high levels is minimal due to resistances].

 

Also, why not just use the DPS calc program?

idk i just threw my own spreadsheet calc together after i saw the datamined stats.

[Notso]

I think the real question is how are you not a liability on your team with a Grakata at lv 200 mob waves.

 

Because everybody sits inside the Globe so it doesn't matter what weapon you bring so long as it's Forma'd with max mods??

Edited July 1, 2013 by Notso

[Leno]

So after seing the datamined stats i decided to do a bit of math to see if crit is ever worth it. ( i could be wrong ofc)

 

First off:

 

Pistol,melee,shotgun crit mods are garbage and never worth it. (on current weapons. Maybe a 50% crit chance might make them worth it)

 

 

Only Rifle crit is left.

 

 

Facts:

 

crit dmg mod is 120%

 

crit chance mod is 150% of base.

 

A fully loaded rifle moded for max dps uses:

 

Split chamber

Serration

Speed trigger

Hellfire

Stormbringer

Cryorounds

Armore Piercing

 

Thats 7 mods

 

If you wanted to add both crit chance and dmg you would have to swap 1 out.

 

My calculations are done based on a mob that takes 100% dmg from all sources and a weapon with  9 mod slots(simplicity) to be able to use all elementals + crit chance,crit dmg. This favors crit.

 

In the actual game you could sawp out hellfire or stormbringer depending on what your killing.

 

 

 

The Guns:

 

Below 10% base crit isnt even worth doing math for.

 

 

So the only guns still standing are:

 

Latron prime 10% 150%

Snipetron 20% 150%

Vulkar 20% 150%

Dread 10% 200%

Paris 10% 150%

 

 

The DPS:

 

With maxed mods.

 

Latron prime: Both crit mods together do almost as much dps as the 60% AP mod alone. The Reload speed mod instead does nearly 2x more dps.

 

Paris: Same as latron

 

Snipetron: Both crit mods  together do a little more dmg than one 90% elemental would do. Reload speed still beats it by a little.

 

Vulkar: Same as snipetron

 

Dread: Both crit mods together do about 2x more dmg than the AP mod. And beat reload speed by a little. If AP mod is removed to make room for both crit mods. Then the benefit drops below reload speed again but still barely beats a 90% elemental with BOTH crit mods.

 

note* im not sure if Dread even benefits from a reload speed mod. If it doesnt then a crit chance mod would add a little dps for the 8th slot.

 

 

 

Conclusion:

 

When maxing for DPS even a fully formad rifle does not benefit from crit mods.( reload speed is almost always better dps for just 1 mod slot)

 

The Dread is the only weapon that got even close to making use of crit mods.

 

This gets even worse if you dont have all 3 90% elementals equiped since crit scales of total dmg.

 

 

Possible uses:

 

I could see them being used on a Dread for max dmg per shot instead of dps to conserve ammo....i guess.

Dread/Paris actually have 20% crit on charged shots which are the only shots you should be taking,

Edited July 1, 2013 by Leno