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Why can't you just... buff old weapons?


AdunSaveMe
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Rivens are meant to get us to use old weapons, or bring them up to a higher level. Why is this necessary? Buffing those weapons and fixing some of the creep that happened over the years would have done that. This is a bandaid.

"You can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa". Why is this necessary? Now balance on those weapons will be based in rivens, rather than the weapons themselves. Am I the only one who sees this as silly?

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Just now, motorfirebox said:

Riven mods are about more than just buffing old weapons. They're a type of reward cycle that Warframe doesn't otherwise have—a sort of Borderlands-y "get surprised by cool new loot" loop.

It's called "procedurally generated" gear, and it was around way before Borderlands. 

IMO riven mods need much polishing, at the moment they are broken and don't fit the existing system.

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Because the results wouldn't be positive at all. Power creep, early game gets easier, players feeling less rewarded after grinding so many hours for that special weapon, and the list goes on...

Riven mods do need some polishing and maybe a higher degree of freedom to the player but they're definitely the best option, considering how well made procedurally generated mechanics can actually balance and bring variety to the gameplay, instead of just repetitive raw stats with no depth.

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Here where I think DE did right:

- They gave us a mod that's not so static with it's stats, somewhat flexible in the numbers.

- You can have more than 2 states on it.

- Can be farmed from Sorties which can help slow down how much you can have.

- Can save up a spot or two in some weapons if the states are right for you.

- Have purple color which is my favorite color (hate me).

Here where I think DE did wrong :

- They included most used and top tier weapons into Rivendell list.

- Can be traded for very high price ( i seen someone selling his/ her for 1k plats) this may result in a toxic behavior between players to even scamming each other.

- We need to over forma few times thanks to this (this is a pain in the pinky finger)

- If the bad or least used weapons needs better states then why have negative in the mix? giving bad weapons bad states is not helping it.

- We can hold up to 15 Rivendell mods which means you have to get rid of something or know what to go for even though we have over 300 weapons including companions AND if you are a collector (90% collector myself) this capacity limit will hurt, a lot.

- Kuva needed is just..too high...either decrease the amount of Kuva from what we can harvest to what we need over all, less is more?

- Have no way of previewing the mod before hand which means you are investing in something you may hate or even regret which means wasted time especially if you couldn't sell or trade it, time wasted.

 DE please stop fixing things through mods, if you have to take anything out of the game to be reviewed and fixed, do it, no need to release mods that only useful on X but useless on Y.

I still remember how Vectis Prime was handled poorly, Depleted Reload IS a good mod but almost useless on anything other than Vectis Prime :(

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1 hour ago, GinKenshin said:

Because it's much easier to buff all the weapons at once through one move than buffing each of them separately 

But the level for EVERYTHING has been increased because you can get rivens for already top-tier weapons. We're still in the same situation.

1 hour ago, GinKenshin said:

 also, if all the unused weapons get buffed to high tier then what? The newbies will just get high tier weaponry from the get go? 

It's called sidegrades. I'm not saying everything should be on exactly the same tier, but there are a lot of things that were powercreeped.

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1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

But the level for EVERYTHING has been increased because you can get rivens for already top-tier weapons. We're still in the same situation.

 

that's not true at all. TT weapons are powerful no matter what. if you take a tonkor to sorties, it'll 1 shot. if you take a tonkor with it's OP riven mod, it'll still 1 shot. nothing changed. OP weapons remain OP and UP weapons got buffed 

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2 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

that's not true at all. TT weapons are powerful no matter what. if you take a tonkor to sorties, it'll 1 shot. if you take a tonkor with it's OP riven mod, it'll still 1 shot. nothing changed. OP weapons remain OP and UP weapons got buffed 

OP weapons become more OP. You don't see a problem with this? The ones that don't invalidate content like sorties (of which there are very very few) can now do so. Future content will have to be balanced around this. This is problematic.

Underpowered weapons only get buffed if you're lucky enough and even then they're not on the same level.

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Just now, AdunSaveMe said:

OP weapons become more OP. You don't see a problem with this? The ones that don't invalidate content like sorties (of which there are very very few) can now do so. Future content will have to be balanced around this. This is problematic.

Underpowered weapons only get buffed if you're lucky enough and even then they're not on the same level.

lol, mate...they didn't. if the mission lvl aren't raised, then OP weapons are still OP no matter the riven mod. it's not like DE will add a lvl 200 mission now. if they did then feel free to rant about these mods being OP on the OP weapons. but the fact, the clear fact that almost everyone is blind to is that riven mods only buffed UP weapons and did nothing to OP weapons 

and DE is already taking measures for that. there's no more 1-hit boss or mini boss or crap like that. and I don't expect the new syndicate assassinations to be like that 

and if what you're saying is true. then OP weapons get more OP if youre lucky enough too, which we are since the RNG is crap >.> 

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7 hours ago, Irorone said:

Actually loot used to be randomized just like riven mods in mod 1.0 (except the values are WAY different now).

Oh gods I remember farming and farming and getting super excited to see a 15% fire rate, 20% multishot mod back in the day.
Sure the Dual stat mods were weaker than the single stat mods but hey, two effects for one slot.

I mean sure it was sometimes frustrating to get a low value mod, but hey its RNG and it was exciting to get the high value ones.

4 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

OP weapons become more OP. You don't see a problem with this? The ones that don't invalidate content like sorties (of which there are very very few) can now do so. Future content will have to be balanced around this. This is problematic.

Underpowered weapons only get buffed if you're lucky enough and even then they're not on the same level.

Adun, normally I agree with you but I have to disagree on this topic.
First:
DERebecca has stated that content won't be balanced around Riven mods.
Direct quote here:
 

15 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Warframe content will not be balanced around Riven Mods, but Riven Mods will be balanced within their own ecosystem.

So please tell me why you keep on yelling in every topic about Riven mods that "Things will be balanced around Riven mods and people who don't have good ones will be screwed!!!!" when even DE says the opposite.

Sorry, but general WoG trumps fan theories.

Second:
Again this effectively does nothing but buff UP weapons.
Weapons that were OP and trouncing everything still are OP and trounce everything.
Sure they do it a bit harder but honestly, what is the difference between killing something 10 times over and killing that same exact thing 20 times over?
UP weapons on the other hand can now perform at levels that are petty decent levels and can even take part in sorties comfortably now.

In fact I've seen a massive upsurge in weapon variety since the mods came out.

So please tell me:
What makes your claims that new things will have(your words here) to be balanced around the riven mods hold more water than DE themselves directly stating otherwise in pretty clear language?
What honestly is the difference between one-shotting a mob 10x and one-shotting the exact same mob 20x?

Edited by Tsukinoki
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8 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Rivens are meant to get us to use old weapons, or bring them up to a higher level. Why is this necessary? Buffing those weapons and fixing some of the creep that happened over the years would have done that. This is a bandaid.

"You can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa". Why is this necessary? Now balance on those weapons will be based in rivens, rather than the weapons themselves. Am I the only one who sees this as silly?

Because it's easier to just introduce completely RNG dependent mods with random effects rather than taking the time to think how to buff around half of weapons we have in Warframe.

Remember how long we had to wait for Braton Prime or Supra to get buffed? And even then it wasn't entirely satisfying (like cutting down Braton P's ammo reserve, just why).

 

With Riven mods on the other hand, the devs could tell the players "just reroll this mod X times to get what you need to make MK-1 Braton viable, we gave you the tools to make it happen".

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11 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Rivens are meant to get us to use old weapons, or bring them up to a higher level. Why is this necessary? Buffing those weapons and fixing some of the creep that happened over the years would have done that. This is a bandaid.

"You can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa". Why is this necessary? Now balance on those weapons will be based in rivens, rather than the weapons themselves. Am I the only one who sees this as silly?

Old weapons don't bring on the cash that new weapons and mods will, and it's a lot easier to make a new mod than to go over about a hundred weapons and properly fix each in turn. 

 

 

Doesn't make it right though. . . 

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11 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Rivens are meant to get us to use old weapons, or bring them up to a higher level. Why is this necessary? Buffing those weapons and fixing some of the creep that happened over the years would have done that. This is a bandaid.

Because it is much easier to add some randomized mods; It brings new sales and stimulates the market; creates new "endgoal" or carrot on a stick to bind players for longer.

There were no noble thoughts behind it. Statement in Dev Workshop is nothing but eyewash.

10 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

also, if all the unused weapons get buffed to high tier then what? The newbies will just get high tier weaponry from the get go? 

This is not the current situation in the game, though. Weapons are nothing without mods, get your tonker as soon as MR 4 and you still have hard times since you have no mods, no Endo to upgrade mods, no potato or forma. Furthermore weapons still require MR, even if you can get the blueprint you still need ressources, which are locked behind Junctions(=progression). Plat can/could always bypass it. 

8 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

that's not true at all. TT weapons are powerful no matter what. if you take a tonkor to sorties, it'll 1 shot. if you take a tonkor with it's OP riven mod, it'll still 1 shot. nothing changed. OP weapons remain OP and UP weapons got buffed

7 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

lol, mate...they didn't. if the mission lvl aren't raised, then OP weapons are still OP no matter the riven mod. it's not like DE will add a lvl 200 mission now. if they did then feel free to rant about these mods being OP on the OP weapons. but the fact, the clear fact that almost everyone is blind to is that riven mods only buffed UP weapons and did nothing to OP weapons 

As soon as Rebecca said the same thing, I was 100% sure it is full of carp. If the buff is irrelevant in the first place, why are they nerfing existing and future mods in the first place? I mean they stay OP. If we follow this chain of thinking, you could also ask for stronger buffs for already OP weapons, since dead is dead no matter how much overkill. To exaggerate: make every shot a guarantied kill, since it does not matter how strong they are at this point anymore. Those are conclusions if you proceed this way of thinking.

Aaaand if a DE employe says something like that, they might just say: "We give up before power creep. Balance? Never again.".

Now to the "noble" fact of buffing UP weapons. Indeed they will get a boost. However, if this is your major goal, why hide it behind several RNG-gates, with a very high chance to not get what you need. You may farm and reroll, farm and reroll and still miss the wanted mod/rolls. And if your goal is to boost those UP weapons to Sortie level, you need some godly rolls. I don't have access to tradechat right now, but I highly doubt that Riven mods for UP weapons with godly rolls are going for cheap there. Now, let me ask you again, how good is this system at reaching its "intended" goals and why they didn't simply buff those weapons?

 

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I'm not sure what buffing all of the old weapons would do, exactly.

So you buff the weaker weapons to create the illusion of fixing power creep. Then what? You release more new weapons that simply make the power creep happen again, leading to the older weapons being buffed again, leading to... nothing being accomplished at all.

A few weapons here or there need mechanical changes and slight buffs. Sure. I'll give you that. Sweeping buffs across the majority of underused weapons accomplishes exactly nothing.

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1 hour ago, Chipputer said:

I'm not sure what buffing all of the old weapons would do, exactly.

You are absolutely right, it would be a temporary solution, if a soltion at all. I view this thread more like a mind game.

New, inovative and creative gameplay would require tweaks to weapons, damage systems, as well as huge mod reworks. This cannot be done and will not be done.

 

Such a shame, I just wanted to throw in some ideas but DE detonated a nuke with those Riven mods.

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On 15/11/2016 at 7:12 AM, Prinny13 said:

Here where I think DE did right:

- They gave us a mod that's not so static with it's stats, somewhat flexible in the numbers.

How is being flexible in numbers a good thing?

People want the maximum amount of damage with the maximum amount of positive stats.

For example:

Mod A:

+200% dmg

+ 150% crit chance

+200% crit damage

 

Mod B:

+225% dmg

+150% crit chance

+200% crit damage

 

If I got mod A I would be super frustrated, while I got a godly riven mod I would be knowing there is still a better one, moral of story DE created an endeless grind.

It is important to make the values standart for the stats that can be rolled. If you get a +dmg stat you need to have hte same numbers as all the other mods that have +dmg (same numbers for each weapon: a riven for braton could give a standart +200% dmg while for a burston give a standart +150%), so as long as they make the values standart for each weapon the system would already be in a much better state

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16 minutes ago, LycanPT said:

How is being flexible in numbers a good thing?

People want the maximum amount of damage with the maximum amount of positive stats.

For example:

Mod A:

+200% dmg

+ 150% crit chance

+200% crit damage

 

Mod B:

+225% dmg

+150% crit chance

+200% crit damage

 

If I got mod A I would be super frustrated, while I got a godly riven mod I would be knowing there is still a better one, moral of story DE created an endeless grind.

It is important to make the values standart for the stats that can be rolled. If you get a +dmg stat you need to have hte same numbers as all the other mods that have +dmg (same numbers for each weapon: a riven for braton could give a standart +200% dmg while for a burston give a standart +150%), so as long as they make the values standart for each weapon the system would already be in a much better state

I guess flexible is wrong term?

But let's go through the modding in this game again, good states on the mod makes the already good states on the weapon even better, but good states on the mod makes already bad or somewhat ok states on the weapon decent at best not better!

What term or word would be used for this situation? English is my third language so my dictionary in English ain't the best :( 

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