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[DE]Rebecca

[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 1!

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Isn't this a big step away from damage 3.0 and fixing broken scaling? I'm all for boosting underused weapons since my old favourite the Flux Rifle is amongst them, but is this really the best way to do it? I get the worrying feeling that you're slowly painting yourselves into a corner with power creep mods like these.

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I'm absolutely happy with current Rival Mods random, now all warframe isn't looks like army clones. I'm happy to hunt for getting great mods for tonkor etc, its reasonable target to do something in this game.

RANDOM IS GREAT.

JACKPOT IS GREAT.

WHINERS AREN'T

AMOEBAS AREN'T TOO

 

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"None for the gorgon"...well that's precisely what i want, instead i got the lanka one. Which doesn't need any riven mod to be powerful...can i exchange it for that?:sad:(just saying :p) 

Edited by lancelance
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12 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

this system gives players new challenges that require them to test the creative limits of their Arsenal in their quest to Unveil their new Mods.[...]What they can do is add an interesting buff to a comparatively underpowered weapon in order to encourage players to think outside of that meta box.

This system does not allow creative builds, though. Currently, Riven mods are not more than stat stacking. They don't allow new or creativ builds, they just push weapons further in what they already can do. Riven mods do not allow non status weapon to become such. However, it highly favors semi-crit weapons with additional crit chance, and crit is the current meta.

12 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Your commentary about meta weapons has been taken to heart as well, and we will be tweaking the algorithm to account for 'Riven Disposition'.

'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.

As I understand it: top tier weapons will get small buffs; trash tier weapons will get strong buffs. This means all weapons with Riven mods will operate around some kind of benchmark. I see several tremendous issues with that:

  • How will you decide what is a strong weapon and what not, as well as how corresponding stats should look like? Will you do it manually, or with some algorithms? This requires steady monitoring and adjustments, just like Warframe before Riven mods.
  • What happens if a weapon falls through this net? When will you react and revisit it? This is the same situation current arsenal is in right now, due to lack of balance measures.
  • How are we supposed to give feedback to any weapon, if any drawback or short comming can be ironed out by a Riven mod? Obviously you cannot fix bad base stats right now, but this is a direct feedback loop to simple stat stacking and build limitations Riven mods still provide.
  • If any weapon will have a potential to be top tier, the current situation, where a player with one such weapon can suck all the fun out of a game will not change. Now we just add Braton to S.Simulor or Tonkor. ( I am exaggerating here, but the direction is still the same)
13 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Warframe content will not be balanced around Riven Mods, but Riven Mods will be balanced within their own ecosystem. We wanted this system to allow players to experiment with their Arsenal in existing end-game missions. It's not our intention to add content where these Mods will be necessary - it brings new ways of experiencing the existing game.

Honestly, I do not see you achieving this goal. "Riven mods ecosystem" requires the same amount of monitoring and adjustments Warframe's arsenal needed before. Now, the complexity will be doubled. And even if you should succeed, is the ammount of work required not the same it would take to just revisit what Warframe currently has? The only difference would be, that the whole arsenal would be a valid choice, not selected 15 weapons at a certain time.

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What I really need for the Rivens is an option to roll back to the last stats after a craptastic re-roll.

Makes me not even try to re-roll a decent mod because more likely than not it will just make it worse.

Also at least give us as many Rivenslots as there are weapons because the drive to take part in the nice new gambling machine will screech to a violent stop as soon as you have to sacrifice one of your good mods for a random new one. :sadcry:

Edited by Zharun

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13 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We’re all familiar with blazing through missions to the Extraction Point, but this system gives players new challenges that require them to test the creative limits of their Arsenal in their quest to Unveil their new Mods. Yes, meta weapons are in the selection pool, but Riven Mods are not needed to make this gear (like the Tonkor or Synoid Simulor) more powerful. What they can do is add an interesting buff to a comparatively underpowered weapon in order to encourage players to think outside of that meta box.

I'd like to take your word for it, but I don't think that statement  deserves credence in the light of recent nerfs. You state one thing and do the exact opposite over and over again. Just look how you made stealth game play utterly ridiculous. Enemies that get alerted by waving a melee in the air nearby while being invisible, or when you kill them close to each other while they're sleeping they even get alerted. How these changes will ever help to promote "creative" play styles is beyond me.

Higher level players that are inclined to use less common weapon setups, will do it regardless of Riven mods. You're not going to motivate a rank up and delete kind of player to get involved with this. If they happen to get a nice Riven mod, they'll just turn it into Plat.

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Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style.

This system not gameplay and it is not endgame. After unlocking a the mod I frowned and then logged out. Is that the kind of incentification the dev team was going for? 

 

Quote

This is why we have prevented players from choosing what weapon the Riven Mod will be for; if we didn’t, we would end up with millions of Soma Mods and none for the Gorgon.

Revitalizing old weapons is easy and doesn't involve any new systems. This is not a  legitimate argument and even if it was this is a terrible conclusion to reach.

 

Quote

The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’.

'Hey there player, I heard you like some RNG in your RNG so we RNG'd your RNG to RNG the RNG because RNG endgame is the meta.'

 

Quote

The current maximum number of 15 Riven Mods is a reflection of this, as limitations encourages creativity and choice.

No it does not! It does exactly the opposite.

...

I have money sitting here desperate to be spent and you insist on repeatedly making content that I don't want and don't like. I don't understand at all.

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5 hours ago, Hitexh said:

I spend 2k Plats for my Tonkor Mod. I want to ask who is responsible for this upcoming nerf? You are just like taking back my Prime Chamber. I dont care if DE want to nerf all riven mods on the new riven mods, but let the existing riven mods remain as it is.. DE is also at fault and have to be responsible.

Its a simple thing. You choose to pay plat to another player for a new Mod. Noone forced you to do it, so you alone are responsible. If the Mods get rebalanced they get rebalanced. And dont tell me you didnt expect them to be toned down after seeing how far stats on them can go....

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Riven Disposition sounds promising.

And I wonder if it is possible to have Veiled mods reset their re-roll count on a sale as to not have the buyer end up with a mod that would be new to them, to have a very high Kuva cost due to the seller not disclosing the count.

A new icon that tracks re-rolls can help, but I hope that such an idea on resetting the count to be a possible addition as well.

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14 hours ago, Racter said:

REMOVING SENTINEL WEAPONS FROM THIS ENTIRELY

Chill I actually like that I can roll a sentinel weapon and I'm sure some do too because not everyone runs kavats only or in general one companion type.

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One question: is it possible to equip more than 1 Riven mod in One build? I wonder if I could make a build filled with Rivens.

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Why are people crying about these mods getting balanced? I didn't see this much salt when the caustacyst got nerfed after a few days, or complaining about being "scammed" when Trinity got a rework that nerfed blessing.

This is a game and anything can be changed at any moment. Get used to it. if you paid 500+ plat for a new experimental system less than 24 hours after it is discovered then you absolutely only have yourself to blame.

NOT balancing the existing ones would be totally inappropriate. It's completely pay to win at that point.

Edited by ChasePanic
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I suspect that this may have been suggested already but here goes:

Not all stat changes will affect all weapons.  Bows (outside of the two crossbows) don't have magazines.  Flight speed will, obviously, not affect hit-scan weapons.  Increases to Slashing, Puncture, or Impact won't work on elemental-based weapons, or ones that lack one or more of these stats (the boltor, for instance, has no slashing damage).  Whatever procedure is being used to generate Riven mods should be set up to not try to change traits that the weapon doesn't have.

Speaking of magazine sizes, some weapons (tonkor especially, though the tigris and some of the sniper rifles are in a similar state) aren't going to be affected by small changes to magazine size (the issue can also show up with maximum ammo - or potentially other stats, but the threshold is much lower).  Giving a bonus, or penalty, to magazine size is irrelevant if it's not enough to translate into more - or less - shots.  While this shows up with general mods, it becomes especially relevant to mods that are specific to a single weapon.  Wildfire giving Tonkor an extra 0.4 grenades per clip is fine (I just don't use wildfire with the Tonkor).  However, having a Tonkor Armatin (or whatever) add 0.4 grenades would be decidedly less fine.

 

And just a minor bit of UI clean-up, but can we skip the "(x2 for Bows)" bit on the Riven mods that affect fire rate?  If this mod only works on one weapon, we don't need to have that displayed, since the system already knows whether this will be applied to a bow or some other weapon.  Either it is a bow, and we're getting +120% fire rate (for example), or it's not, and we're getting +60%.

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On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 7:14 PM, immolator1001 said:

As a mastery rank 22 player who had taken a break for a couple months, these mods really reinvigorated my interest in Warframe and I'm really exited to get Riven mods for my favorite weapons that aren't quite top tier.

There are a few things I think should change:

1. Add a weekly mission with Teshin to get a Riven mod, so that it isn't totally Sortie RNG

2. Don't increase the cost of rerolling mods. The reason people want to reroll a mod is because it is a weapon they like and they want the mod to suit it better, this simply discourages players from rerolling mods for weaker weapons.

3. Add caps to stat changes, -100% on basically any stat can ruin a weapon, if it is damage the weapon basically ceases to work.

 

Like it so far and can't wait to see it evolve!

Thanks for saying what I wanted to say!

But on 3 it's everything with the exception of recoil, in which case a + 100 could be a major detriment. Since the mods are weapon specific I would love it if the algorythm would work with stats of the weapon rather than just pull stats out of the RNG box.

Current example I've heard is the Dera, an impact and puncture weapon getting +slash on its Riven mod. Of course this can work in your favour if you happen to get negative slash for that Riven mod, but I still feel like those should come as a consequence to be considered (like the corrupted mods), but need to be balanced out by higher values in other areas.

Edit: Nvm this might not work as there are alernative (and potential future alternative) versions involved. Examples: Gorgon (not really crit or status), Prisma Gorgon (crit) and Gorgon Wraith (status)

Also the Boltor, which the regular version has Slash damage, while the Prime and Telos versions do not.

Right now the system is still just too random.

The increased cost of rerolling could work if you can keep some stats with every roll. (But in general I agree that it should just be a static cost)

 

Edited by Madway7
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1 hour ago, lancelance said:

"None for the gorgon"...well that's precisely what i want, instead i got the lanka one. Which doesn't need any riven mod to be powerful...can i exchange it for that?:sad:(just saying :p) 

That's where being able to trade the mods helps the system a bit.

I have a Sybaris and Dread riven mod, but I don't like those weapons eventhough they are pretty good. I would rather trade either for a Gorgon mod that can hopefully get the crit chance and damage up on my Prisma Gorgon.

And props to DE for not making these mods cost Primed mod levels of endo/credits. (Please don't do that now that I mentioned it)

Edited by Madway7

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27 minutes ago, Methemisk said:

One question: is it possible to equip more than 1 Riven mod in One build? I wonder if I could make a build filled with Rivens.

No, it's not possible.

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15 hours ago, (PS4)Romulus93 said:

If DE didn't make trash weapons then we wouldn't need a whole system to make them useful. Riven mods seem like a band-aid solution to the actual problem that DE makes some weapons obviously weaker than others. It's the power creep problem that has been building over time. Do away with Riven mods and look at how and what DE releases in general. I see this as unnecessary system clutter. My friends, as new players, are already confused as hell with what there is. 

Riven needs to go and a look at damage, enemy scaling, enemy difficulty, and weapon stats/enhancement, needs to be addressed to fix the meta and unused weapon issue.

^ this is what you need to fix DE!

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14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

This is why we have prevented players from choosing what weapon the Riven Mod will be for; if we didn’t, we would end up with millions of Soma Mods and none for the Gorgon. The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’.

15 Riven Mods is a reflection of this, as limitations encourages creativity and choice.

I don't understand what you're going for... some weapons. The ones you think players will go back to because of these mods like the Harpak for example might NEED that "perfect roll" to even be good.

While weapons like the Soma just need some stat buffs and viola, a stronger Soma! 

Increased cost might lead to a player giving up on Riven mods for weapons that are generally considered bad or not viable, while focussing all their efforts in getting that perfect roll for something they want by for trading for the Riven mods that they want and selling the ones that they don't. (By "selling" I mean in the mod section for credits if nobody wants it in trade) 

Please make it a static cost.

To me the risk of losing good stats you may have gotten should be enough to discourage constant rerolling.

And choice... 

When you reach the cap here you will have to choose what weapons you like, which Riven mods are worth keeping and which are not (or are better to sell) and which ones go out the window first? The ones with a high Kuva cost on a weapon you don't like or want.

I'm sure this cap will increase if Secondary and Melee Riven mods are introduced, but don't think a cap like this allows you to say that you are "encouraging creativity and choice". And with the layers of RNG involved, best thing you can say we're limiting what you can keep from your journey of random chance.

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I'm sorry but the whole we don't want people to choose the weapon it's for so they experiment with other weapons is a BS line when you consider we only have 15 Riven mods max and can only put one on each weapon. Not to mention Kuva costs go up ridiculously per reroll with no actual improvement to the odds of getting good effects, the costs just increase because of a petty, small-minded design decision. (Yeah I might sound annoyed, try rerolling a mod 4 times and each time getting trash effects, but still having to pay more)

Under the current scenario no-one will waste Kuva trying to reroll mods for the bad weapons or even bother saving them as it will only be the meta weapons people keep as they can be traded for Plat.

Edited by WereFowl
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Reroll cost is almost equivalent to focus power ugrades. I guess power creep for Cost Creep. Which is ok when you have a mod thats worth it.

but  a mod you cant use due to stat  discrepancies.

The system is not doing what its suppose too.

i was also hoping the new operator system tied in to focus a lil better 

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Question: is hotfix already out and some riven mods got tweaked or it is still to be delivered?

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9 minutes ago, (PS4)Nzza_News said:

Reroll cost is almost equivalent to focus power ugrades. I guess power creep for Cost Creep. Which is ok when you have a mod thats worth it.

but  a mod you cant use due to stat  discrepancies.

The system is not doing what its suppose too.

i was also hoping the new operator system tied in to focus a lil better 

Yes but focus upgrade give you definite power increase, rerolling is pure RNG. You're paying extra kuva for no good reason.

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