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[DE]Rebecca

[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 1!

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16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We want to give new life to the Arsenal in a non-static way.

Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style. What they can do is add an interesting buff to a comparatively underpowered weapon in order to encourage players to think outside of that meta box.

This is why we have prevented players from choosing what weapon the Riven Mod will be for; if we didn’t, we would end up with millions of Soma Mods and none for the Gorgon. The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’. For those of you who want to find the best Mod possible, that avenue is available to you, but that is not the goal behind this system.

 

Ok let me explain why your goal will never be reached with this implementation:

 

1.The main problem is balancing of weapons. Instead of addressing that issue you're introducing a new "system" which exacerbates this problem which is mods scale with weapon's base stats. A 500% crit chance on a weapon with 5% crit chance = a 30% crit chance which still isn't all that great. A weapon with 30% crit chance with a mod that increases crit chance by the same 500% = 180% crit chance this is why no amount of additional mods will help a weapon with bad base stats unless you're making these ridiculously OP (all have +3 multi 100%s rolls) for only weapons with bad base stats.

2. By not limiting mods to certain weapons (like you did with syndicate weapons) that are underpowered it expounds on the problem since now the weapons with the best base stats are now 200% better (which can literally be the case with multishot + base damage riven mods) which creates a bigger gap even if the underpowered weapons get 200%.

3. By not letting us  select which Riven Mod the weapon is used with simply creates a huge demand with a small supply since no one still wants to use non-meta or wanted weapons.

4. If your goal was to really allow underpowered weapons to get better why allow negative rolls at all? This doesn't make sense we're going to help balance weapons by giving negative damage to underused ones? No one will ever use a negative damage Riven mod, sorry just not going to happen.

5. If you want players to allow greater customization of their weapons you need to allow them to select how they want to use their weapon. I.E. You must allow users to have some control of their stats (by perhaps allowing them to lock an attribute for Kuva, another resource, or credits). 

6. If you want to allow players to "think outside of the box" in how they want to use it don't allow the "meta attributes" I.E. Damage, multishot, Crit Chance, Crit Damage, Status Chance as this will just cause users to only seek those rolls. 

 

 

Possible solutions:

1. BALANCE YOUR WEAPONS TO A BASELINE DAMAGE OUTPUT

2. Only after one is complete examine under-utilized weapons and allow Riven mods on them

3. Allow users to have some control on the stats they roll.

4. Allow users to have some control on the weapons selected.

 

 

Edited by 3thereal
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I am ok with tweaking the riven mods for non meta weapons, but I think nerfing meta weapon mods will cause some strife, mainly because I know there are people out there who probably spent a lot of plat on a tonkor mod.

The most "meta" weapon mod I own is for the sybarius fyi, which is not really that meta.

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10 hours ago, ChameleonDude said:

 

  • MR requirement should be base, the mods growing in strength as the owner's MR increases. This will take out part of the randomness and almost unfairness of the system (a MR20 player receiving a MR12 locked mod, which will be weaker than what they can use, for no good reason).

So this got me thinking again...  why are these mods locked by mastery rank anyway?  I think a far better way to do it would be to have the mods level scale with MR.  Something like +(Base * MR) to stat maybe, maybe the Base can be random.  So if base is say 5% when obtained it would provide 25% to stat and able to grow to 150% to stat at MR 30 (assuming that is still projected max).  To me that seems more incentivizing to become higher mastery.  Growing the mods power through leveling mastery seems more tasteful.  Instead of just well we know your MR 5 and all, but here's a MR 18 locked mod GL.  For me it wouldn't matter too much either way, but I'd like to see lower MR player's take on this.  I think I would much rather prefer something that can use immediately after completing TWW at MR 5 that has the potential to grow further, instead of well now you gotta grind 4 to 13 more MR to use.  So ill ask.  Is it more incentivizing for you to have to grind to some MR to actually equip, or have it scale based on your MR? 

 

P.S. Now I've gone gotten myself all excited as to what this system COULD be. 

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I would like to throw in my input as well. I like the idea of Riven mods,  I got one for Synapse that has me curious about the potential of the weapon, and has me scrambling to obtain one. This was good in my eyes. After about 5 minutes of thinking about it , I decided to finally come back to the forums and see what's up. The fact that the likes of the Tonkor, Simulor, Dread, and a few other weapons that are leaps and bounds above all else getting these mods felt off. I remember seeing a 200% crit chance and 150% crit damage Tonkor Mod with the only downside being slower fire rate. I was happy for the player who unlocked it, that's a good first roll and they should go play the lottery, yet at the same time I seen that this system wasn't really going to fix anything: we will still have to deal with meta weapons. 

Don't get me wrong, I have a very small arsenal of weapons that I enjoy that could be considered top tier, as well as some niche fun choices for doing whatever. I will always have the "Play how you want" mindset and if you like meta, more power to you. I just don't enjoy the random squadmates I get telling me my gear is trash (it is, and i acknowledge it but I still give my all) or someone with a mindless aoe weapon, leaving the squad to get the highest killcount, leaving the rest of the team out of affinity range. The system only seemed to increase the "these are my kills and the team is an obstacle" mindset.

Mini rant over for those that do not wish to read it, I am happy with the disposition changes coming up. Seems fair and for a while there will be hate and vitriol. Here are some extra things I would like for the system to really get some unique weapons with these mods:

  • The option to name a weapon with a Riven Mod in our arsenal, using the chat-filter as a baseline to ease the players who will name them something offensive.
  • Added effects other than stats from other mods, such as explosive bullets, increased damage to shields, higher percentage of dropping orbs, etc.

That's really it, I can't think of anything else. Thank you DE, for this amazing game and I will be one of the first to admit that I don't fear change. I accept it.

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Just now, RacerDelux said:

I am ok with tweaking the riven mods for non meta weapons, but I think nerfing meta weapon mods will cause some strife, mainly because I know there are people out there who probably spent a lot of plat on a tonkor mod.

The most "meta" weapon mod I own is for the sybarius fyi, which is not really that meta.

Dont worry itll become soon meta with riven mods and get nerfed because "meta", their argument makes sense but flawed.

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7 minutes ago, ashrah said:

this is not frist time....they are pay real cash for that.. that is bad for game.... ppl making stuff to be stronger...invaste time and money...u balance stuff before realese not wen ppl  put money in it that will made ppl  pretty mad of course

DE have been doing this for years. Hell just look at the caustacyst when that came out. I highly doubt anyone got refund who bought that from the shop with Plat.

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6 minutes ago, ashrah said:

this is not frist time....they are pay real cash for that.. that is bad for game.... ppl making stuff to be stronger...invaste time and money...u balance stuff before realese not wen ppl  put money in it that will made ppl  pretty mad of course

But those are only a fraction of the players who are putting money into the game. Keeping the overpowered stats as they are on existing mods would negatively effect the majority of the paying customers.

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10 minutes ago, Virsalus said:

Keeping the overpowered stats as they are on existing mods would negatively effect the majority of the paying customers.

Why? Just because you didnt take the time to re-roll the mod and got lucky too?

The content is already oneshotted w/o Riven mods but everyone seems to forget as soon they see someone getting a better Riven mod from theirs.

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16 minutes ago, CrazyCortex said:

 

  • Added effects other than stats from other mods, such as explosive bullets

They still haven't added Cannonade, so I think they're still working on balancing that concept.

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5 minutes ago, fatalis92 said:

The content is already oneshotted w/o Riven mods but everyone seems to forget as soon they see someone getting a better Riven mod from theirs.

Why don't buff them even further instead. I mean those weapons already do 100k damage, lets make it 1 million or maybe 1 billion? Do you see where this leads?

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20 minutes ago, Virsalus said:

But those are only a fraction of the players who are putting money into the game. Keeping the overpowered stats as they are on existing mods would negatively effect the majority of the paying customers.

that is not how things works... 10 ppl have fiat i  buy bentley then someone come to u and tell u u cant have bentley cz other ppl dont have it... that is super funny...

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4 minutes ago, fatalis92 said:

Why? Just because you didnt take the time to re-roll the mod and got lucky too?

The content is already oneshotted w/o Riven mods but everyone seems to forget as soon they see someone getting a better Riven mod from theirs.

Personally I have not yet acquired a Riven Mod for a weapon that I'd want to reroll stats for. And that is still completely beside the point. I already stated that the negative effect would lie in creating even more of an inequality among players. Also "getting lucky" is not the right way to reward people at all. So what if you put hours upon hours into the game and still don't get lucky? Is that fun to you? Wouldn't you like a way to somehow compensate for your bad luck?

There are other systems in this game that already offer possibilites to do so, for example turning unwanted Prime parts into ducats and buying more desirable stuff from Baro using those. Trading parts for plat and buying stuff with plat works too, but only as long as prices stay on a somewhat moderate level which they definitely would not after a change that would single out a handful of overpowered mods.

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1 minute ago, ashrah said:

that is not how things works... 10 ppl have fiat i  buy bentley then someone come to u and tell u u cant have bentley cz other ppl dont have it... that is super funny...

This is a game with its own economy, it's not the real world.

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Just now, Virsalus said:

This is a game with its own economy, it's not the real world.

its real world as long as someone put real cash in game...that is bad model for other ppl who wish to play game...

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5 minutes ago, ashrah said:

its real world as long as someone put real cash in game...that is bad model for other ppl who wish to play game...

This is entirely my point. Creating a limited amount of overpowered mods would only create more incentives for people who just want to buy their way to power within the game.

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Alright, I'm going to put down some of the things I've been thinking about, though I suspect I'm a bit late to the party.

17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Firstly, we should all understand our goal and why this goal existed in the first place:

We want to give players something unique to them that can speak to their wider Arsenal. We want to give new life to the Arsenal in a non-static way.

This is an admirable goal that I'm fully on board with.

Quote

Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style.

I like this, too. It seems to be working, in my observation - people have been breaking out more unusual toys as they get mods for them.

Quote

We have started to add quirks to weapons, as shown with the recent Syndicate Melees, and this is supposed to be a continuation of that train of thought: we want players to be able to use their weapons in new ways that typical builds don’t encourage or allow. The current maximum number of 15 Riven Mods is a reflection of this, as limitations encourages creativity and choice.

This is where we run into trouble. You've envisaged the limit as encouraging creativity and choice, when it does the complete opposite.

Warframe is a game about loot. Getting loot - all kinds of loot, but especially new and interesting loot - speaks to the reward centers of our brains, and it's a huge part of what brings us, as players, back. Warframe does this very well, and one of the most common descriptors when people try and explain the game to others is "pokemon." Gotta catch'em all really is core to how and why we play. Getting everything in the game - or as close to it as possible - is core gameplay. And so far that's been nurtured and celebrated by the way you at DE have developed the game.

And then all of a sudden, we get this cool new mechanic and system, with brightly colored loot that's just oozing flavor - it represents everything we play for. It's right there, a mod nobody else has! It's yours! It's unique! Go get more, go trade them, go collect them! ...oh, wait. There's a limit. This is galling. This is like reaching into our brains and slapping us. "You want more? NO. Make choices. Stop being a hoarder, stop exploring the gamespace, stop hunting for more. You can't have it. You'll have to get rid of what you've got if you want something new. You'll have to throw something out." This is awful.

How can I indulge myself in a game that's going to limit me? I'm a hoarder. I want all the things, I want to pack them away and keep them for the day they'll be exactly what I need to have. But I can't do that - I'm capped. I can't have more. I'm being punished. The game isn't fun any more, it's now a source of stress. Make choices? Throw things away? What's going to happen when I run a sortie and get riven mod #16 - am I going to watch it slip through my fingers?

And of course, I'm certainly not going to have any interest in buying plat to use on getting mods under these conditions.

But let's say I get past that - you say this is about encouraging creativity and choice. It's not doing that. If I can only have a few, then I am only going to own the best, period. When space is limited, there is no room for anything that isn't optimal. That mod that makes Panthera amusing? Not going to use that, it's gotta go to make room for a Simulor/Tonkor/Soma mod that might make a difference. No room for fun when performance is on the line.

Of course, there's another option... mules. Players can stand up a few spare accounts and store another 15 mods at a pop. Sure, trading with an alt account is against the rules, but it's being directly encouraged by your design choices, so mules there will be. I don't think you want this, but it's the inevitable consequence of the design choice you've made.

Please, remove the riven mod limit. It's not good for the game.

Quote

Secondly, this system will be slow to roll out and include iteration.

This was a good, logical decision. Work out the kinks one step at a time, and expand as things settle.

Quote

Lastly, what is the immediate iteration you can expect?

In the past 3 or so days since The War Within has been released, our community brought up some very pertinent points concerning this system. The first is trading, and the lack of UI indication of how many times a Mod has been Cycled and the Weapon it is for, which will soon be added to both Veiled (after the initial Unveiling) and Unveiled Mods. For example, a Cycled Lanka mod will appear as Lanka Riven Mod until it is unveiled again.

Good. I think the current system of retained cycle count needs to be reviewed (I've got an idea for replacing it with a mod station "heat meter", where the cost to cycle drops as the mod station cools down after rerolling), but that can be elaborated upon elsewhere. The above steps will make trading safer, at least.

Quote

 

Your commentary about meta weapons has been taken to heart as well, and we will be tweaking the algorithm to account for 'Riven Disposition'.

'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.

This modification will also affect existing Riven Mods to reflect our desire to give new life to ‘discarded’ weapons in a unique way, and not increase the power of the top tier ones. Prepare to see a difference in stats of existing Riven Mods in an upcoming hotfix. Warframe content will not be balanced around Riven Mods, but Riven Mods will be balanced within their own ecosystem. We wanted this system to allow players to experiment with their Arsenal in existing end-game missions. It's not our intention to add content where these Mods will be necessary - it brings new ways of experiencing the existing game.

 

 

This sounds fantastic. If I'm reading this right - a system where all riven mods are influenced by a constant derived from their host weapon's popularity, presumably recalculated on a regular basis - there's ENORMOUS potential to encourage better weapon diversity. The Tiberons and Stradavars of the world will re-emerge from the back of the arsenal! Miters and Pantheras... well, less so.

Self leveling, self adjusting systems make me happy. They make me excited.

Conclusion: the riven mod system is a strong addition to the game, and the changes you are making are clearly for the better. The major change that still needs to happen is shooting the riven mod capacity out the airlock, but I'm confident that you at DE are seeing that.

Edited by pauli133
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30 minutes ago, Virsalus said:

Personally I have not yet acquired a Riven Mod for a weapon that I'd want to reroll stats for. And that is still completely beside the point. I already stated that the negative effect would lie in creating even more of an inequality among players. Also "getting lucky" is not the right way to reward people at all. So what if you put hours upon hours into the game and still don't get lucky? Is that fun to you? Wouldn't you like a way to somehow compensate for your bad luck?

There are other systems in this game that already offer possibilites to do so, for example turning unwanted Prime parts into ducats and buying more desirable stuff from Baro using those. Trading parts for plat and buying stuff with plat works too, but only as long as prices stay on a somewhat moderate level which they definitely would not after a change that would single out a handful of overpowered mods.

There's no equality in the first place between players to start with, just look at the people who cant do 4 headshots while sliding crying in a corner.

I dont understand how i could re-roll 10+ base mods playing and having a good result with each of them, and i didnt even play that much. Im sure really dedicated players can do much more and better.

Getting "lucky" with Riven mods is more common than you could really consider it lucky since there are so many positive bonusses a so few negatives.

The thing that bothers me is that as they stated the focus of the Riven system is on the non-meta, non used, old weapons wich is GOOD, but half of them aint going nowhere unless they upp bonusses to 300 400% OR they do their Job and fix the Base Stats of those "forgotten" one's! I see this as being Lazy and the real weapons that are going to benefit from Riven's are the one's that are slightly under the meta weapons soon to be meta, nothing else.

The re-roll costs should go away as soon they nerf the top tier one's, dont see anyone paying 5k kuva for Riven Hind.

I already made my profit out of this mess already and agree with the fix just dont agree with the reasoning of the majority is coming out.

Edited by fatalis92

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Some topics have been brought up about possible nerfing.

Personally im happy to wait and see what happens for the most part. If i have an issue ill bring it up then. Still, something i wanted to bring up is the cost for these mods should they be nerfed.

I got one for the Zarr. Its an 18 cost and has lead me to need to forma the Zarr two more times to fit it and the rest of my mods in. Should it be nerfed, i would be faced with an issue of not only maybe not wanting to use the mod, but also having to spend more forma to effectively undo the polarities ive forma'd onto it.

Also, I spend over half my endo leveling it to max, so that'd hurt.

I also spent 700 plat on a Riven for the Penta, which i would be abit miffed if that was nerfed.

 

So as i said, im not going to get angry about what hasnt happened, but what are the thoughts on stuff like this? Personally im hoping there are no, or at least minimal, nerfs. Simply seeing buffs to the lower tier stuff would be good.

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5 minutes ago, fatalis92 said:

There's no equality in the first place between players to start with, just look at the people who cant do 4 headshots while sliding crying in a corner.

I dont understand how i could re-roll 10+ base mods playing and having a good result with each of them, and i didnt even play that much. Im sure really dedicated players can do much more and better.

Getting "lucky" with Riven mods is more common than you could really consider it lucky since there are so many positive bonusses a so few negatives.

The thing that bothers me is that as they stated the focus of the Riven system is on the non-meta, non used, old weapons wich is GOOD, but half of them aint going nowhere unless they upp bonusses to 300 400% OR they do their Job and fix the Base Stats of those "forgotten" one's! I see this as being Lazy and the real weapons that are going to benefit from Riven's are the one's that are slightly under the meta weapons soon to be meta, nothing else.

The re-roll costs should go away as soon they nerf the top tier one's, dont see anyone paying 5k kuva for Riven Hind.

Didn't even play that much and have 10 riven mods already? I didn't play that much and I have 2. You clearly didn't get them from sorties alone so that means you actually invested into getting more which makes you more than just a casual player at least in that regard.

And there has has been a lot more in terms of equal footing prior to the introduction of this system. You could be playing a few weeks and already be sporting a nice frame setup with some good weapons viable for the endgame. You could have a real taste of the high end side of the available gear. This highly variant and purely luck based system is anything but that and keeping some mods overpowered would make it even worse.

Edited by Virsalus

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1 hour ago, Vethalon said:

So far I really like the Riven mods, now my thoughts:

1. There should never be a Riven mod that only gives positives, that's just boring, they should be more like corrupted mods, trading in one thing for another.

2. There shouldn't be values (positive and negative) for a weapon that doesn't use them. Let's take Gorgon for example, 5% Status Chance, a Riven that gives +100% Status is most likely worthless and has to be rerolled, a Riven that gives -100% Status Chance has a good potential to be op because the Gorgon cannot be built for status, so the negative value doesn't matter at all.

3. Increasing Kuva Values are fine, but in lower increments. I rerolled a quite bad Ogris mod a few times and now it went from 1200 Kuva to 2500 Kuva and has stats that don't effect the weapon at all. (+~100%Crit chance(5%->10%) and +~100%Puncture(0 -> 0), -~50%Flightspeed(40->20)) That's a shame, I would really like to have a reason to use the Ogris, but the values it gives me are just nonsensical for the weapon. How about -damage +multishot and +firerate that would make the Ogris a completely different weapon^^

4. Remove alone challanges, I have a hard time convincing my firend to unvail his two Riven mods, that both have to be done solo, because he only ever plays when I play.

The nerfing of op weapon Rivens is good news, they really don't need a buff, a change in handling might be quite interesting though.

The randomness is cool, but should be better balanced.

I have an interesting Opticor mod, that increases damage dramatically but lowers charge rate by a lot, that is fun to use.

+100% Damage and Crit Chance for Dread is just really booring.

 

Some weapons can't perform well with 4 positives :p
Actually, i really like that DE will make balance between overused and underused weapons. Gosh, tonkor with multishot and + damage and crit is ridiculous.
Only one thing that i got so far is that i rerolled harpak mod 4 times, and 3 of 4 times i got around -130% damage. Wich made harpak completely useless.
 

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My issues.

1) Do not include top tier weapons in the list. A good mod for a top tier weapon is better than a godly mod for a crappy weapon. Since you dont want top tier weapons to get better, remove them from the list.

2) Remove some RNG from the system. Its RNG (obtaining one), on top of RNG (how to unlock), on top of RNG (what weapon), on top of RNG (what stats), on top of RNG (kuva to reroll).

3) Weapons being rolled with stats that make no sense. A big example, miter with crit modifiers on it. Why is that even an option?

4) You can roll a sent weapon.....why is this an option.

5) The negatives really really kill what could be an ok mod. If you get a -damage or -multishot...pretty much need to throw away the mod unless you have something amazing on the other ones.

6) Limit of 15. This limits diversity. Many people will not waste precious mod slots to make crappy weapons on over making great weapons better. For example, take a look at a lot of the weapon mods that do not contribute directly to damage. Generally, outside of very specific builds (4-shot tigris), they just dont get used. Why? because its not worth putting them in since you are limited by how many mods you can use. This is the same thing.

 

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@[DE]Rebecca, when can we expect this changes to happen, if they are to happen?

I am very concerned about this system (specially its effects on top tier weapons), and I am truly hopeful this changes will rebalance the recently egregiously increased power for top tiers. If you are to keep what you said, the idea of you adapting Riven mods to the game (instead of the opposite) might actually increase a bit more my faith in you (for all that's worth).

Even though I currently find it awfully flawed, I am interested in this concept, and like it in theory. If it is to be refined, it might actually be quite great.

Also, if you are to apply said changes, you will demonstrate a lot more nerve and courage to make decisions for the benefit of the game, something I notice you tend to sacrifice a bit too much.
Regardless, good luck with the backlash.

(Also, give Equinox QoL changes.)

Edited by tnccs215

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I personally like the system, I have thought that the game needed something like this as a long term incentive for a long time..

This seems to indicate that the "damage 3.0" that was in talks (the removal of serration, etc.) isn't going to happen as well.  One thing that I think could potentially make this more balanced, as well as more fun, would be if you couldn't use a mod of the same base type if your riven has that stat.  Such as, if you have +damage%, you can't use serration, or electrical damage% and you can't use stormbringer.  Maybe make the system more about mod consolidation than about adding even more power, and would let you use some of the less used utility mods.  And make it to where the upper level rolls on the less used weapons can be higher than what serration could give.

I think this would also be a pretty decent opportunity to create a resource sink, maybe let us convert some of the easier to find resources to kuva.  1500 nanospores for one kuva, hell I would do it.

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I don't understand why Riven mods were released in their current state in the first place. Like seriously, we already have an infested cancer growing in our ship for half a year+ already and no one gives a S#&$, what difference will it make if after the quest we would receive "ooooh, we have found a mysterious box/thingy and lets put in on a pedestal and analyze it" and then after like 2 weeks when u actually polished the content and fixed a majority of bugs, u could "decrypt" it an VOILA "it is a BRAND NEW MOD Operator!". 

Like we didn't get ANY indications that this is what was coming and i haven't seen any demands for stuff like that either, if anything people asked simply buffing garbage weapon stats, which is as simple as tweaking a number in a build. In the meantime people could have farmed Kuva Siphons, caz "operator, it seems Kuva is strongly resonating with this box Thingy, so u might want to acquire some more of it". After 2 weeks of fixes and SOME TIME TO THINK whether releasing these mods for Soma,Tonkor, Simulor & co in its current iteration is a good idea we might have had a bit less of a S#&$storm on our hands, don't we? 

 

Now back to your post (again, assuming this is not a vent thread and someone actually would read any of the feedback/criticism provided here):

Riven mods are geared towards end-game players aka Vets mostly for which we are thankful, challenges are also appreciated. 

We do have a number of problems which were currently discussed already though - we still need to blaze through mission, since Kuva Siphon missions are extremely unreliable in their current iteration. 

The problem with meta weapon could have been avoided by either excluding them completely from the pool of Riven mods or by simply stacking Utility mods for them like - for Tonkor + flight speed, + Range of explosions, + reload speed aka FireStormSmtnSmtn instead of Zephyr Turbulence build; similarly for Torid for example, since its a projectile weapon as well. Everything + damage for meta weapons is a bad idea in general, the best u could hope to achieve is switching up some of the standard Vital Sense/Point Strike/Shred/Prime fast hands with their equivalents + 1-2 utility buffs, making them essentially Quality of life buffs (since it would take us 2 more years for u to buff reload speeds or switching weapon speed)

I also have severe doubts that Underpowered weapons were given a balance look/glance as in maximum possible rolls for them compared to top tier current performers. A top tier roll for Miter/Hind/Harpak should be able to compete with Soma/Boltor/Quanta Vandal or at least come extremely close, which requires a lot of fine tuning. Somehow i doubt this was the case, but perhaps i'm wrong.

 

A couple of other problems comes from Math associated with Kuva Re-roll and Riven mods acquisition. Since its a relatively new feature, its hard to get exact numbers (and u won't release them as always), but as it stands we can get a Riven mod lets say every 5 days or so from Sortie as per RNG, so for potential 15 Riven mods u would need 14*5= 60 days to max out your capacity (since u get one in war within). Exponential Cycling costs mean that at some point its NO LONGER WORTH IT to re-roll some mod and its easier to simply dissolve it and buy/find a new one and start all over (my gut says that at around 5kish its no longer worth it and thats being generous, but i'll leave it to math lovers to figure out this stuff). Additionally the cost of lets say re-rolling a mod 5 times is 900+1000+1300+1800+2500 which equals to a total of 7500 Kuva to Try to find a good roll, which is far from guaranteed, if u fail, u just temporarily abandon the mod and switch to the other one as per "Natural Progression"

7500 Kuva is like 12,5 Siphon Runs without booster or 6-7 with one, but and there is always a big  but in its current form Kuva Siphon farming is random as well and we have no idea about the spawn rates of it either. Even assuming it spawn every 3rd or 4th run, we would still need 3x6-7=18-21 runs with booster or 4x6-7=24-28 Runs to try to Re-roll a mod 5 times. For a stated purpose of incentivizing revisiting old-weapons this looks like a massive time-gate in both the amount of runs u need to do to get the Riven mod and the SICKENING amount of Kuva Siphon farm u need to do, to simply re-roll everystat 5 times or so. This effectively postpones the implementation of "use underused weapons" weeks and months down the line and i'll tell u one very simple truth that is fairly obvious from a player standpoint - People are going to be sick/fed up from Kuva Farming very fast, its fissures all over again only with layers upon layers of RNG. 

My math might be severely off (and i apologize, perhaps people could do better calculations) but it should paint the general picture. 

 

As for trying to try the existing stat, a veteran or anyone who has any idea about the game would not need to upgrade a Riven mod to max capacity for -100% damage, -80% multishot, +projectile speed for hitscan weapons or recoils, we already know what is good, but even if we would be so stupid to do so, would [DE] refund the Kuva costs or Endo costs upon leveling and then dissolving the mod, when it inevitably turned into garbage/not worth re-rolling anymore? I don't think so.

 

As far as the 15 mod capacity, please stop. This is not 1984, we don't need to hear this "less is more", at any point in time i want to go to my arsenal and choose from my Rifles and Riven mods associated with them with what exactly will i roll out today. I hate being artificially capped on something without ANY reason whatsoever. I don't know if its possible to equip several Riven mods on 1 gun, if it is, then its obviously stupid, but as it stands - 1 Riven mod per gun, the Riven Mod capacity should at least tripple if not removed altogether. This is just annoying, unless u want to sell some more loadout slots, which i guess is one reason, but hopefully we won't get more capped stuff.

 

In regards to improvements to current Riven mods, they are way too RNG. I'm not sure where exactly the inspiration came from, but even Diablo has locked stats and a possibility to select one exact stat that u can re-roll over and over again at the cost of increased costs, which makes sense considering your INITIAL GOAL was to incentivise using Garbage Tier weapons which are otherwise rot in Arsenals, not add a Casino element to the game. WAAAAY too much RNG and weird buffs debuffs could occur during re-roll for allegedly weak stuff which no one likes anyway. Maybe u can switch some of the stats on the Mods from direct IPS buffs, to conversion+buff types like Conclave modes, so that Cernos with a Puncture roll would not be a complete waste of a stat, but simply converts its damage from Impact to Puncture while buffing its damage more than Crash Course. 

 

Riven Disposition sounds interesting on paper, but YOU NEED TO THINK before u release stuff, this is important, caz otherwise u screw over other players who essentially wasted thousands on plat on stuff and they are going to be pissed about it (for the record i didn't wasted anything on riven stuff). 

 

I don't really get how can u not balance around Riven mods, caz there are 2 possible ways this goes:

1st is every Riven mod is not good enough to reach The meta levels of damage/utility and then they are a failure and no one cares about them.

2nd Riven mod weapons become meta or come very close to competing with current monstrosities, in which case we have even more bullet sponges or "conditional invulnerability enemies" . I don't really get how Corpus or Grineer can pump out completely invulnerable enemies unless u do X,Y,Z to them, considering they are inherently inferior to Orokin or Sentients, but thats on your conscience. What i dislike is the new trend of "do a backflip, while looking backwards, reaching you armpit and sniffing your scrotum to make an enemy vulnerable to damage". Thats the direction i see the game will go for, unless Damage 3.0 rolls out and Rivens are not helping tbh ~_~ This will make the game frustrating and annoying and i kind a dont want that. 

 

This was a big post and hopefully someone read it :/ Sorry about that, its just the stuff we got was unnecessary and way too rushed and i thought u guys learned from Specters of the Fail. 

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