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[DE]Rebecca

[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 1!

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The infinite re-roll cost might sound good on paper, But is absolutely bad in real life wide scale implementation. When you keep on getting physical damage increase for a elemental wep(Quanta series etc.), It's obviously fun when a weapon with no crit chance gets 190% extra crit chance(Panthera) etc.

On top of that 15 cap doesn't help the matter. After a few months the cost to reroll a mod would hit about 12k kuva+ as its for a weapon i want but at same time it doesn't have supporting stats that actually help the weapon( The main point of system).

And altering player's actual inventory wow. GOOD JOB.

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18 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:


This modification will also affect existing Riven Mods to reflect our desire to give new life to ‘discarded’ weapons in a unique way, and not increase the power of the top tier ones. Prepare to see a difference in stats of existing Riven Mods in an upcoming hotfix.

 

 

Press F to pay respects to those that paid 1000's of platinum for Riven mods.

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This is so good , you grind, grind, grind, grind and at the moment you unveil that Riven mod of that "discarded" weapon that you want to make great again (pun intended) its so rewarding you feel great because you worked hard for it. Some say that Riven mods are based on RNG, true that, I am not against this opinion but I am not against the RNG either because thats what keeps me playing thats what makes me log in to play and i like it A LOT.

There was a time where Warframe "suffered" in terms of content and DE had a hard time, old players to keep loging in to play. Basically Warframe developed a rutine  for player that players were not happy about because of the lack of content and its true when Cephalon Samodeus said "Warframe wouldn't be here without risks"  and they did a really great and outstanding job to change that rutine that was created , risks were taken and support was given by the community to keep the game "rolling". Outstanding job DE , also "Nothing is written in stone " but your name is and beneath that name are the emlpoyees names written all over .  I think I say this from myself and from all the old players out there "Keep being awsome  and keep doing what you do. "  (Had to get this out of my system I have seen so much  complaints since the update was launched) 

Edited by Destroyal
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Also I've spent a lot of plat in trades for the existing mods over 1k plat. I'm really disappointed that you guys are now telling us BTW your current stats don't matter; GG DE. I forever will not buy/trade for items for the first 2 weeks after released and would kindly ask that you guys consider offering some serious compensation for us who traded away thousands of plat for these new mods only for them to get changed.

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Definitely great news and cool to see DE share their point when stuff like this may happen easing possible worries about the game for some of us.

Think that with an arsenal full of diferent weapons having a limit of 15 may be a bit rash without an option to increase it at least when some folks may just want to just collect them with time to enchance their gameplay with extra choices for them to use and play.

Personally got a deth machine gun riven mod out of my first riven mod, In 15 mod spaces and so many weapons i could use to enchance my gameplay choices for example, why would one bother to keep one space for something like that :\

One can agree it is indeed an extra gameplay choice of having an exclusive power up to it but at the end of the day a sentinel sidekick will still be a sentinel sidekick lol

Other then that, as allways kudos to DE and hoping they continue to make warframe the great game it is.

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3 minutes ago, 3thereal said:

Also I've spent a lot of plat in trades for the existing mods over 1k plat. I'm really disappointed that you guys are now telling us BTW your current stats don't matter; GG DE. I forever will not buy/trade for items for the first 2 weeks after released and would kindly ask that you guys consider offering some serious compensation for us who traded away thousands of plat for these new mods only for them to get changed.

As Marcaus Munitions once said electronically, caveat emptor. (buyer beware)

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Just now, Dracario said:

As Marcaus Munitions once said electronically, caveat emptor. (buyer beware)

That's not really a valid point here. This is like going out and buying a car with all of the bells and whistles only to have the manufacturer force you to turn it in for a lower model. I.E. I buy a Tesla with autopilot, Tesla then recalls the model and disables the autopilot which you paid extra for. If this happened in real life they would get sued big time. While I'm not suggesting legal action here, it's not the same as "buyer beware" since factors outside of my control the item I bought is now getting automatically downgraded.

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8 minutes ago, 3thereal said:

Also I've spent a lot of plat in trades for the existing mods over 1k plat. I'm really disappointed that you guys are now telling us BTW your current stats don't matter; GG DE. I forever will not buy/trade for items for the first 2 weeks after released and would kindly ask that you guys consider offering some serious compensation for us who traded away thousands of plat for these new mods only for them to get changed.

Learned your lesson.

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8 minutes ago, 3thereal said:

Also I've spent a lot of plat in trades for the existing mods over 1k plat. I'm really disappointed that you guys are now telling us BTW your current stats don't matter; GG DE. I forever will not buy/trade for items for the first 2 weeks after released and would kindly ask that you guys consider offering some serious compensation for us who traded away thousands of plat for these new mods only for them to get changed.

Your reply is not valid in my opinion , no ofense ! Because :

1. Buying thousands of plat is you choice and your choice only.

2. The "Trading System" is a player to player system which means DE has nothing to do with prices which you buy mods , prime parts etc. 

3. About the mods being nerfed:

Warframe PC is still at Beta and obviously that the content will change.

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I love the addition of these mods, the first one i got was for the Gorgon. And the stats on that mod were GORGEOUS; It was a second serration, electricity damage, mag size increase at the cost of fire rate which can easily be modded out with speed trigger/vile acceleration. And I used the Prisma Gorgon a lot more afterwards, i loved it so i decided to reroll. GOt a crappy one, rerolled again and then my Gorgon became a laser at the cost of multishot. I decided it was my calling to buy the trashy riven mods and reroll them until they were good. Surprisingly enough, I came across a Braton mod that converted it from a Slash based weapon to a Puncture based weapon. I tried it out and it procing puncture like crazy! It could easily be fixed with Fanged Fusillade, but man the potential! Just imagine getting a mod for the gorgon removing the impact damage in exchange for slash or puncture, that'd be insane!

However the price of rerolling exponentially increasing Kuva is just out right absurd; they should reset if the mod is traded back to 900 and capped at like 2k Kuva. EIther that OR increase the chances of spawning Siphons or even have multiple siphons in a mission. It's outrageous how many runs it could take to get a siphon spawned. Can we please have either luxury?

One more thing; please get rid of the +-zoom attribute? No one ever uses that unless it's a sniper that has really bad zoom levels.

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1 minute ago, Destroyal said:

Your reply is not valid in my opinion , no ofense ! Because :

1. Buying thousands of plat is you choice and your choice only.

Granted

2. The "Trading System" is a player to player system which means DE has nothing to do with prices which you buy mods , prime parts etc. 

DE does have some control over supply and demand, so I don't agree with this logic here, although you are correct the market does set it and they aren't fixed like the WF in-game market

 

3. About the mods being nerfed:

"Warframe PC is still at Beta and obviously that the content will change."

 

I find the whole "Beta" thing BS, I'm sorry they ask for $150 dollars for prime access which is 2-3x the cost of a AAA title; it has been out for years. Why would they put "System is in beta" disclaimer on the focus system and not elsewhere if everything is in Beta? Pretty poor excuse IMO. 

Things being changed in any game is valid, however taking all of your existing stuff and simply nerfing it into the ground right after launch is a pretty poor technique. 

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2 minutes ago, 3thereal said:

1. Buying thousands of plat is you choice and your choice only.

Granted

2. The "Trading System" is a player to player system which means DE has nothing to do with prices which you buy mods , prime parts etc. 

DE does have some control over supply and demand, so I don't agree with this logic here, although you are correct the market does set it and they aren't fixed like the WF in-game market

 

3. About the mods being nerfed:

"Warframe PC is still at Beta and obviously that the content will change."

 

I find the whole "Beta" thing BS, I'm sorry they ask for $150 dollars for prime access which is 2-3x the cost of a AAA title; it has been out for years. Why would they put "System is in beta" disclaimer on the focus system and not elsewhere if everything is in Beta? Pretty poor excuse IMO. 

Things being changed in any game is valid, however taking all of your existing stuff and simply nerfing it into the ground right after launch is a pretty poor technique. 

And it's naive to believe that a completely new addition to the game, mods with randomized stats, would go unchanged over the course of time. Especially when it clearly introduced new imbalances.

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Wonderful. You guys addressed the one problem I'd have with this system when it comes out for consoles, which is the needless boosting of the meta weapons. My Soma Prime, as much as I love it, does not need an OP Riven mod. However, I'd love a reason to shoot razor discs at enemies with the Miter! If there was any continued tweak I'd wanna see it'd be a higher chance of lesser used weapons getting Riven mods. And maaaybe a way to better zero in on the stats you want while still preserving the inherent nature of Riven mods.

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1. Balance

Quote

Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style.

The same could have been achieved already by making tweaks to the stats of old weapons, to create a better balance, and over time normalize viability (seriously, how hard can it be to change the numbers on a weapon?  Why has the only answer to unpopular weapons been to sacrifice a mod slot on them for a weapon specific augment?).

Balance is something that can only be achieved by taking a methodical, step-by-step approach, looking at the data, and making small changes, before repeating until you can say that you are close enough.  The GW2 team had exactly the right approach to this, balancing their classes' abilities gradually over the course of many months, in bi-weekly patches.

A blanket overlaying of a completely random system onto everything limits the possibility that you will get meaningful data to work from.  It will also create unpredictable results, due to the way the many stats can interract.  You could have looked at how well mastery fodder weapons performed compared to meta when players were limited to similar loadouts.  Now you'll have to exclude every loadout with a riven mod in it, because the variance for a single weapon's riven mod, and the chances of any two players having something similar is miniscule, never mind enough players for you to have a meaningful set of data to work from.

Lastly, need I remind you of one of the fundamental rules in designing a functional, scalable, maintainable system?  Keep It Simple Stupid.  Simplicity has been thrown out of the window here.  Working around this much RNG and inconsistency is going to slow you down, and introduce considerable complexity to an already complex system.

The iteration you're talking about is going to be a much harder process that it could have been before riven mods.


2.  Pay to Win Succeed

Quote

...we're a free to play game and the fairness of our product is always the sword we'll fall on or proudly wield, because free to play is so scrutinized for monetization.

How is flipping a coin and immediately giving one player a reward, while making another slave away for an unknown amount of time before receiving anything anywhere near fair?  How is it fair that the only choice left to that person who has worked so hard for nothing, is to spend cash?

Because these can be traded between players, and because the few with good stats will have far higher values than other tradable items due to an artificially created scarcity, it is really no different from DE putting high value riven mods directly onto the market.  They still profit from their sale, because they still sell the plat used to buy them.

Some RNG is good, and reasonable where players still feel that they have a clear choice between paying or grinding.  If you have too much RNG though, that choice is taken away, and you risk frustrating and burning out a great many players who merely have bad luck.  Leave them with the only choice after that run of bad luck being to pay a high price, and you quickly lose their respect.

From the quote above, Rebecca clearly understands this.  For the rest of DE who are likely behind the words she said at the start of this thread, I feel I need to repeat the warning:

There is a world of difference between players thowing money at you, even when they don't want anything in return, because they respect what you're doing, and want to support you in this, and dangling a carrot in front of them and abusing human psychology that they have little control over, for the sake of profit.

When your success is built on the former, be very wary about crossing the line towards the latter.
 

Here are some options that may improve the system:

  • Remove the ridiculous levels of randomness, in all stages of getting a viable mod.  Give players a fairer return on investment.  While there needs to be a baseline time-to-aquire, there should be limits placed on how far off that baseline players should expect to end up, instead of allowing the extremes that always occur when relying solely on low chance RNG.
  • Knock it off with the useless stat combinations.  Have the stats provided reflect the mods' points cost, taking into account the weapon, because the mod is locked to the weapon.  At least then we can give/trade poorer/expensive to re-roll mods to players who have yet to potato/forma gear, and they'll be able to fit it, as it would have a 7 point cost, not an 18 point cost.
  • Provide additional sources so that players have more choice than just sorties, such as syndicates (for the equivalent of several days of rep gain), rare loot caches, higher tier nightmare alerts, as a trade-in for a pair of completed ayatan sculptures.  Also, give them as a reward for reaching the higher mastery ranks, in addition to, or alternating with loadout slots (retroactively applied to anyone who already has a high mastery).
  • Allow riven mods to be fused with other riven mods only, once they have reached a certain re-roll value, resulting in a fresh, baseline re-roll value riven mod.  There needs to be some kind of return on investment after farming and throwing kuva at mods and getting nothing.  Even if it involves starting from scratch (both weapon and stats changed) and costs four mods, getting to a high re-roll cost with no results should not be producing items with near zero value.
  • Alternatively, once a mod has hit a certain high re-roll cost, permit a second re-roll type, which permanently locks the stats, but allows the weapon type to be switched (again at increasing cost), giving another chance that something viable could be attained.
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2 minutes ago, 3thereal said:

1. Buying thousands of plat is you choice and your choice only.

Granted

2. The "Trading System" is a player to player system which means DE has nothing to do with prices which you buy mods , prime parts etc. 

DE does have some control over supply and demand, so I don't agree with this logic here, although you are correct the market does set it and they aren't fixed like the WF in-game market

 

3. About the mods being nerfed:

"Warframe PC is still at Beta and obviously that the content will change."

 

I find the whole "Beta" thing BS, I'm sorry they ask for $150 dollars for prime access which is 2-3x the cost of a AAA title; it has been out for years. Why would they put "System is in beta" disclaimer on the focus system and not elsewhere if everything is in Beta? Pretty poor excuse IMO. 

Things being changed in any game is valid, however taking all of your existing stuff and simply nerfing it into the ground right after launch is a pretty poor technique. 

Point 3

I dont find the game in Beta anymore, rather I find it as an mixture of third person shooter MMO cooperative genre;

Point 2.
It's the market, what you gonna do? You're gonna have to find the cheapest seller to get those good mods; its how i got maiming strike .

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Just now, Virsalus said:

And it's naive to believe that a completely new addition to the game, mods with randomized stats, would go unchanged over the course of time. Especially when it clearly introduced new imbalances.

The entire game is unbalanced, weapon damage, enemy damage, enemy HP/Armor scaling. I expect the game to be unbalanced at this point. The crux of these mods are the game is unbalanced and these are a band-aid to fix them instead of fixing base stats on weapons.

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19 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Firstly, we should all understand our goal and why this goal existed in the first place:

We want to give players something unique to them that can speak to their wider Arsenal. We want to give new life to the Arsenal in a non-static way.

Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style. We’re all familiar with blazing through missions to the Extraction Point, but this system gives players new challenges that require them to test the creative limits of their Arsenal in their quest to Unveil their new Mods. Yes, meta weapons are in the selection pool, but Riven Mods are not needed to make this gear (like the Tonkor or Synoid Simulor) more powerful. What they can do is add an interesting buff to a comparatively underpowered weapon in order to encourage players to think outside of that meta box.

This is why we have prevented players from choosing what weapon the Riven Mod will be for; if we didn’t, we would end up with millions of Soma Mods and none for the Gorgon. The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’. For those of you who want to find the best Mod possible, that avenue is available to you, but that is not the goal behind this system.

We have started to add quirks to weapons, as shown with the recent Syndicate Melees, and this is supposed to be a continuation of that train of thought: we want players to be able to use their weapons in new ways that typical builds don’t encourage or allow. The current maximum number of 15 Riven Mods is a reflection of this, as limitations encourages creativity and choice.

In that case, you've greatly failed on all accounts. Kill 350 enemies in a day to reveal an 18 capacity mod that gives a small bonus to puncture damage and status duration to a weapon (Karak) that deals primarily impact damage and has negligible status chance (7.5%).

"We want to give players something unique to them that can speak to their wider Arsenal." - Giving me an expensive, yet terrible, mod is not going to widen my arsenal. You've failed.

"We want to give new life to the Arsenal in a non-static way." - Another failure. This does not give new life to my arsenal in any way, be it a static or non-static way, this gives me nothing.

"Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style." - You've grossly failed in this regard. A terrible and expensive mod is not going to incentivize me to use a bad weapon or change my play style in anyway. How could it? Where's the logic in that? Hey, if we give people useless mods for bad weapons that will totally make them start using bad weapons again, right? Wrong.

"We’re all familiar with blazing through missions to the Extraction Point, but this system gives players new challenges that require them to test the creative limits of their Arsenal in their quest to Unveil their new Mods." - My so called "challenge" was to kill 350 enemies in a day. Blazed through 1 exterminate and a 5 minute survival to unlock that. It wasn't a challenge, and in fact Unveiling my Riven mod actually took me away from more challenging content. So you've failed at giving me any kind of a challenge or changing how I play a mission.

"What they can do is add an interesting buff to a comparatively underpowered weapon in order to encourage players to think outside of that meta box." - The problem is that they don't necessarily do what they can do. Sure, I hypothetically could have got a mod that would make my Karak worth using, but I didn't. So you've entirely failed at giving me an interesting buff to a comparatively underpowered weapon. You've failed at encouraging me to think outside that meta box. The problem has nothing to do with me not thinking outside the box, the problem is that I don't have the tools necessary to play outside the meta box.

"The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’." - Yet another failure. The exponential cycling costs will not encourage me to play with increased puncture damage on a karak. The only thing it does is punish me for being unlucky.

"For those of you who want to find the best Mod possible, that avenue is available to you, but that is not the goal behind this system." - I'm not looking for the best mod possible, but it would be nice to have got something actually useful after the long wait for TWW.

Edited by HomShaBom
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12 minutes ago, 3thereal said:

1. Buying thousands of plat is you choice and your choice only.

Granted

2. The "Trading System" is a player to player system which means DE has nothing to do with prices which you buy mods , prime parts etc. 

DE does have some control over supply and demand, so I don't agree with this logic here, although you are correct the market does set it and they aren't fixed like the WF in-game market

 

3. About the mods being nerfed:

"Warframe PC is still at Beta and obviously that the content will change."

 

I find the whole "Beta" thing BS, I'm sorry they ask for $150 dollars for prime access which is 2-3x the cost of a AAA title; it has been out for years. Why would they put "System is in beta" disclaimer on the focus system and not elsewhere if everything is in Beta? Pretty poor excuse IMO. 

Things being changed in any game is valid, however taking all of your existing stuff and simply nerfing it into the ground right after launch is a pretty poor technique. 

My point is this "BETA  obviously that content will change" buffs and nerfs included. At this point in this debate we are having it has turned out in " Its about prespectives now". Its crucial to undersand te purposes also. 

Edited by Destroyal

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2 minutes ago, 3thereal said:

The entire game is unbalanced, weapon damage, enemy damage, enemy HP/Armor scaling. I expect the game to be unbalanced at this point. The crux of these mods are the game is unbalanced and these are a band-aid to fix them instead of fixing base stats on weapons.

But they do not fix it. The upcoming changes are meant to address that.

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1 hour ago, chaotea said:

I also spent 700 plat on a Riven for the Penta, which i would be abit miffed if that was nerfed.

I thought and still think that paying that much plat for a completely new gameplay element is a really bad Idea, sorry.

No one in their right mind should pay more than 100p on a Riven right now.

And I have seen Rivens beeing traded for 1500p, I mean really?!

Kinda like the Orvius parts beeing traded for 20p and more on release date, before people noticed, that almost every Guardian drops a part.

This game has always been and still is in "Beta" a lot of things get changed, is it really wise to trade the equivalent of tens of $/€ for something that's highly random and got just released?

 

My recomendation to DE would be, next time you release something like that, make it non-tradable in the beginning, that way you will get a lot less angry people.

 

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3 minutes ago, Vethalon said:

My recomendation to DE would be, next time you release something like that, make it non-tradable in the beginning, that way you will get a lot less angry people.

This!

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Yes, "disposition" is exactly what we need to make the best compromise.  Meta weapons can still have their ideal spread of stats and keep their value for people who traded for them, but the magnitude of those stats needs to be scaled way back to keep the game balanced as a whole.  Meanwhile, on underpowered weapons like the tiberon, high rolls should be abundant.

 

 

I do disagree with the scaling costs and limited capacity tho.  Each reroll is functionally identical.  If each one increased the "disposition" level, there would be a change in the function to justify an increasing cost.  There is not (nor should there be).  Rerolls should be a flat price, or at least a capped price allowing the first few to be "discounted."  And the cap of 15 does the opposite of encouraging variety.  It restricts variety and will lead people to filter down to only the best mods for the best weapons instead of keeping a spread for all kinds of weapons to play around with.

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Also another thing for DE to keep in mind; these mods can be equipped on weapons of the same type.

 

I.E.

The regular Boltor is meh, the Boltor Prime and the syndicate Boltor have good stats. I fail to see how you're going to account for this? 

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9 hours ago, Deva_Path said:

Well people are paying 800+ plats for 'God tier' tonkor and simulor mods, they really need to read this xD

1000-4000 even, they seriously need to reconsider nerfing the existing mods, or some people(including me are gonna be reallyyyyyyyyyyy pissed off.:angry:

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1 minute ago, Shashu13 said:

1000-4000 even, they seriously need to reconsider nerfing the existing mods, or some people(including me are gonna be reallyyyyyyyyyyy pissed off.:angry:

Why? Because you're too selfish to care about the health of the game?

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