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[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 1!


[DE]Rebecca
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5 minutes ago, Shashu13 said:

1000-4000 even, they seriously need to reconsider nerfing the existing mods, or some people(including me are gonna be reallyyyyyyyyyyy pissed off.:angry:

If they do not do it, many more people will be pissed off than just you few who thought it would be wise to spend loads of plat on these new and experimental mods. Who do you think DE should consider more?

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Hmmm. Look, DE and Rebecca, I really appreciate the Dev Workshop statement, but I am sorry to say that I find it somewhat suspect. The stated aim was to simultaneously make long term goals for invested players and encourage diversity of builds with under-used weapons, and that sounds great......but on launch, Riven mods included boosts which took top tier meta weapons and buffed them into orbit. It is simply not possible for that to have been an accident or an oversight. Those mods were created, the algorithms which generate them, the systems which catalog them, all of this was coded for, and all it takes is for someone who plays the game to look at one of the offending mods for about five seconds to realise the effect they will have. This did not evolve by accident over the course of several patches and updates, it was not a compromise between existing systems. Riven mods arrived pre-broken.

 

 

I find it highly doubtful that the entire process went by without even one person saying "Hang on a second, what are these mods for?"

 

 

I'm glad to hear that they'll be receiving a balance pass, but to be quite honest the entire thing has shaken my trust in Digital Extremes' mechanical development.

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Just now, HomShaBom said:

Why? Because you're too selfish to care about the health of the game?

After seeing senseless nerfs and DE's anti-fun stance on everything, riven mods are the thing that got me back into in-game more . I have spent hard earned plats on the mods and I dont want to see them nerfed to the ground.  If they nerf these beyond a limit, then I may consider putting my time and money in other better games.  And the good mods are not game breaking in anyway(and no, I dont like the tonkor nor do i have the mods for it). I don't know what you meant by "the health of the game", but lets leave it at that.  Its just that i dont want my time and money spent go to waste.  No offense intended to any fellow tenno.

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17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We want to give players something unique to them that can speak to their wider Arsenal. We want to give new life to the Arsenal in a non-static way.

Then maybe it's time to make some fundamental changes to the mod system itself? How is it that a mod that only gives me raw stats is going to make my Arsenal non-static? My Arsenal is mostly static because the game encourages me to go for maximum damage at all times. If I don't pick the most damaging weapons I can't kill enemies faster then they can kill me. So it doesn't matter if I'm using a Soma Prime, Braton Prime, Tonkor or whatever because I'm still choosing those weapons for the exact same reason, which is their damage output. And the riven mods are not going to change that. So my Arsenal will remain static even if I'm lucky enough to get a riven mod that's worth equipping.

I don't like the notion of using RNG to balance weapons and I also don't like the idea that weapons can be balanced simply by adding raw stats to them. The little challenges for unlocking the mods would be enjoyable if it wasn't for the random nature of the system, which ensures I will get frustrated or disappointed more often then not.

If you really want to fix the Arsenal problem then you need to start looking into the mod system itself. Having dedicated slots for different types of mods and having different weapons offer different types and amounts of these slots seems like a better starting point to me. But really, anything is better then hoping RNG fixes the problem.

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2 minutes ago, Virsalus said:

If they do not do it, many more people will be pissed off than just you few who thought it would be wise to spend loads of plat on these new and experimental mods. Who do you think DE should consider more?

If they do nerf those mods, then I want the plats spent on these reimbursed to me(doubt that will happen).  If not , I will have learnt my lesson and uninstall this thing and move to better things.

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5 minutes ago, Shashu13 said:

If they do nerf those mods, then I want the plats spent on these reimbursed to me(doubt that will happen).  If not , I will have learnt my lesson and uninstall this thing and move to better things.

Why didn't you think about this before you spent all that platinum? Haven't you played any other MMOs ever? It's common knowledge that newly added game mechanics are subject to change.

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Revisiting the MR lock table for weapons and slowing down MR progression would have been a much more sensible approach to get people to use "underused" weapons. Now it's way to easy to grind to MR12-13 and pick up the few meta weapons and never use anything else. These mods won't fix any of that anyway as it's an attitude problem of some players.

Adding Borderlands style RNG to Warframe's modding is going to do two things:

  1. make people buy (with Plat), the mods for the weapons they want to use
  2. make people quit

If they at the very least had fixed stats then they'd just be another typical DE band-aid ("everything can be solved by adding more mods"). It'd still be a bad solution but at least not as obnoxious as this one.

Perhaps DE needs to revisit the direction they are taking the game: first raids (which barely anybody cares about) then random stats, if this is a trend then next we'll have a raid finder and Pandas. (and if I wanted any of that, I still have a WoW account somewhere)

Edited by marelooke
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Just now, Virsalus said:

Why didn't you think about this before you spent all that platinum? Haven't you played any other MMOs ever? It's common knowledge that newly added game mechanics are subject to change.

My first MMO, really loved this game. But meh, hopefully they wont bring the nerfs crashing down on the good mods. It would be really unfair to players who spent real money to get plats to spend on these mods.  Lets wait and see what happens first.

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1 minute ago, Shashu13 said:

My first MMO, really loved this game. But meh, hopefully they wont bring the nerfs crashing down on the good mods. It would be really unfair to players who spent real money to get plats to spend on these mods.  Lets wait and see what happens first.

What, you think they're going to nerf the bad mods even further?

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Just now, Virsalus said:

What, you think they're going to nerf the bad mods even further?

Ahahahahaha, that was good one.  Given their interested in nerfing things, I won't be surprised, JK. 

Thing is, I just don't want them to nerf the good mods to the ground, i don't mind a minor reduction.

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1 hour ago, Shashu13 said:

My first MMO, really loved this game. But meh, hopefully they wont bring the nerfs crashing down on the good mods. It would be really unfair to players who spent real money to get plats to spend on these mods.  Lets wait and see what happens first.

This is a luck based system on a game genre known for its constant alterations.

"Fairness" has nothing to do with this. You don't get the mods because you deserve them (you get them because you are lucky), and you cant invest enormous amounts of time and/or money in an incredibly broken and unbalanced system and act surprised when you are told to most broken aspects of it are getting fixed.

If the tweaks are what they should, underpowered weapons wont loose anything, and overpowered ones will stop being so stupid powerful.

Sorry, but the fake sense of satisfaction of a few hundred lucky people isn't more important than the balance of a core aspect of the game.

Edited by tnccs215
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Just now, Shashu13 said:

Ahahahahaha, that was good one.  Given their interested in nerfing things, I won't be surprised, JK. 

Thing is, I just don't want them to nerf the good mods to the ground, i don't mind a minor reduction.

I fully understand what you're feeling. The unfortunate reality however is, that mods with combinations of additional crit chance, crit dmg, dmg, elements, multishot on meta weapons is a really broken thing. Sure, if they tone their values down far enough that'll be fine. But it has to be retroactive, too, which apparently it is. And it probably won't be that fun anymore. For example, constantly red critting Dreads just by having a new OP mod on the weapon? Not going to happen any more.

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Just now, Virsalus said:

I fully understand what you're feeling. The unfortunate reality however is, that mods with combinations of additional crit chance, crit dmg, dmg, elements, multishot on meta weapons is a really broken thing. Sure, if they tone their values down far enough that'll be fine. But it has to be retroactive, too, which apparently it is. And it probably won't be that fun anymore. For example, constantly red critting Dreads just by having a new OP mod on the weapon? Not going to happen any more.

Gonna wait and watch now. That's all we can do. Peace.

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Just now, tnccs215 said:

This is a luck based system on a game genre known for its constant alterations.

"Fairness" has nothing to do with this, be it because you don't get the mods because you deserve them (you get them because you are lucky), and you cant invest enormous amounts of time and/or money in an incredibly broken and unbalanced system and act surprised when you are told to most broken aspects of it are getting fixed.

If the tweaks are what they should, underpowered weapons wont loose anything, and overpowered ones will stop being so stupid powerful.

Sorry, but the fake sense of satisfaction of a few hundred lucky people isn't more important than the balance of a core aspect of the game.

Given that you can only have 15 of them I don't see how this will do anything about the underpowered weapons at all. It might make them "usable" (which would have been more sensibly fixed by revisiting the stats on said weapons) but if it's a weapon i don't enjoy using then no mod will ever get me to change my mind and not being able to get one for a weapon I *do* enjoy (like the Lato) will just frustrate the hell out of me.

And then we're not even considering the obnoxious random nature of the stats on these mods.

 

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Just now, marelooke said:

Given that you can only have 15 of them I don't see how this will do anything about the underpowered weapons at all. It might make them "usable" (which would have been more sensibly fixed by revisiting the stats on said weapons) but if it's a weapon i don't enjoy using then no mod will ever get me to change my mind and not being able to get one for a weapon I *do* enjoy (like the Lato) will just frustrate the hell out of me.

And then we're not even considering the obnoxious random nature of the stats on these mods.

 

Oh don't take me wrong, even taking into account the supposed upcoming changes, I still find many gripes with this system. A limit of 15, for example, is one of those gripes: Good sense dictates that, when dealing with limited resources, people will tend to favour efficiency (i.e. the performance of a weapon) over anything else (i.e. whether they actually like using said weapon).

However, I do have to note that 15 is not a small number (at least not when you only have hem for one weapon class), and if you don't like the weapon and the weapon isn't good, then there is no reason not to sell or scrap the mod.

That said: yes; DE's addiction to RNG is getting worse by the day.

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On 15/11/2016 at 6:59 PM, Silverton said:

Didn't you guys try this random stats thing on mods before? I don't think it worked out well then and I don't see it working out real well this time.

It is actually considerably worse than that.

 

- Riven mods are gated behind multiple layers of RNG. They may actually be the most RNG gated thing in the entire game, as they drop from the Sortie rewards pool, which can only be rolled once per day, they are for a random weapon, they have random stats, they cannot be directly improved if they are bad, you have to randomly reroll their stats using Kuva, which is also RNG gated in itself. There is nothing in them which is directed by player thought or strategy. You just throw yourself at a brick wall once per day.

- They do not serve their purpose of allowing true diversity of builds. Now, DE have stated that this was an oversight and that they will rebalance, but the sad truth is that where before I would have believed this and had a strong degree of cautious optimism, now I do not. I will believe it when I see it, and only then. Until then, Riven mods are a rare means of taking already overpowered builds and powersliding them through the gates of Valhalla with +103.76% Crit Chance and +79.1% Crit Damage.

- These RNG-gated tools of ultimate broken-ness will have an additionally adverse effect on acquisition and trading because of one other critical factor: they are limited availability as well as RNG-gated. They are Sortie rewards, which means they rotate by season. If you would like to try a Riven build for a Primary weapon when it is Melee season, you are out of luck.....but Trade Chat beckons. I really, truly do suspect that a hefty part of the design of Riven mods was an attempt to encourage trading using large amounts of Platinum. (This was incorrect, I apologise. Sortie is no longer based on Seasons.)

 

So, regarding that thing which I first posted, and then struck out because it seemed to be wrong? Guess what. DE will be removing Rifle Rivens and putting in Pistol Rivens. But, it's not like the old Sortie Seasons! It's not like that at all! Because we're not calling it a Season, see?

 

 

Seriously DE. We're not idiots.

Edited by BornWithTeeth
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5 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

It is actually considerably worse than that.

 

- Riven mods are gated behind multiple layers of RNG. They may actually be the most RNG gated thing in the entire game, as they drop from the Sortie rewards pool, which can only be rolled once per day, they are for a random weapon, they have random stats, they cannot be directly improved if they are bad, you have to randomly reroll their stats using Kuva, which is also RNG gated in itself. There is nothing in them which is directed by player thought or strategy. You just throw yourself at a brick wall once per day.

- They do not serve their purpose of allowing true diversity of builds. Now, DE have stated that this was an oversight and that they will rebalance, but the sad truth is that where before I would have believed this and had a strong degree of cautious optimism, now I do not. I will believe it when I see it, and only then. Until then, Riven mods are a rare means of taking already overpowered builds and powersliding them through the gates of Valhalla with +103.76% Crit Chance and +79.1% Crit Damage.

- These RNG-gated tools of ultimate broken-ness will have an additionally adverse effect on acquisition and trading because of one other critical factor: they are limited availability as well as RNG-gated. They are Sortie rewards, which means they rotate by season. If you would like to try a Riven build for a Primary weapon when it is Melee season, you are out of luck.....but Trade Chat beckons. I really, truly do suspect that a hefty part of the design of Riven mods was an attempt to encourage trading using large amounts of Platinum.

 

 

Seriously DE. We're not idiots.

Fully agree but where did you get the season thing from?

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20 hours ago, (PS4)Romulus93 said:

If DE didn't make trash weapons then we wouldn't need a whole system to make them useful. Riven mods seem like a band-aid solution to the actual problem that DE makes some weapons obviously weaker than others. It's the power creep problem that has been building over time. Do away with Riven mods and look at how and what DE releases in general. I see this as unnecessary system clutter. My friends, as new players, are already confused as hell with what there is. 

Riven needs to go and a look at damage, enemy scaling, enemy difficulty, and weapon stats/enhancement, needs to be addressed to fix the meta and unused weapon issue.

This. Riven mods shouldn't exist. Current weapon stats should be tweaked to bring some diversity.

 

DE brings again a totally RNG based system that makes no sense.

Edited by Hedasker
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Just now, Virsalus said:

Fully agree but where did you get the season thing from?

They are Sortie rewards which replaced Event weapons in the Sortie reward pool. Event weapons cycled through seasons. Right now, Riven mods are only available for Rifles (using Warframe's positively demented definition of 'rifle', mind, which means basically everything that's not a shotgun, including assault rifles, sniper rifles, grenade launchers, and samurai longbows). The logical extension of this is that Sortie seasons will now be based on the category of weapon which Riven mods are currently available for.

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2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

They are Sortie rewards which replaced Event weapons in the Sortie reward pool. Event weapons cycled through seasons. Right now, Riven mods are only available for Rifles (using Warframe's positively demented definition of 'rifle', mind, which means basically everything that's not a shotgun, including assault rifles, sniper rifles, grenade launchers, and samurai longbows). The logical extension of this is that Sortie seasons will now be based on the category of weapon which Riven mods are currently available for.

Nope.

"Sortie Seasons are no more. We now have a set reward list of rewards that are always repeatable."

Edited by Virsalus
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Just now, Virsalus said:

Nope.

"Sortie Seasons are no more. We now have a set reward list of rewards that are always repeatable."

Ah, thank you for pointing this out! Then that part of my criticism is invalid, and DE have not been so cynical as I feared.

 

They've still seriously dropped in my estimation for introducing Riven mods at all, mind.

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Borderlands style RNG belongs in Borderlands, not Warframe.

  • This is not a $60 AAA with DLC.  It is an F2P where in-game items have an equivalent cash value, through trading.
  • If you have a run of bad luck, and can't get what you want, you don't have the option of firing up a save-game editor, or getting a friend to clone a weapon for you.  Your only option is to spend cash (or go through what looks from the high prices for good riven mods to be a huge amount of grinding for stuff to sell, followed by an even worse grind to sell it.  This wouldn't be half as bad if you were getting saleable prime parts or mods while farming kuva, but that's not the case, so  if you've had bad luck, it will mean yet more grinding if you don't want to pay).

 

43 minutes ago, Shashu13 said:

My first MMO, really loved this game. But meh, hopefully they wont bring the nerfs crashing down on the good mods. It would be really unfair to players who spent real money to get plats to spend on these mods.  Lets wait and see what happens first.

If this is your first MMO then you won't have seen the damage that grandfathered equipment can do.  There's already enough salt about Excal Prime (something DE cannot bring back due to legal reasons), without adding any more unobtainable items, that actually have stat bonuses on them.

Real money has nothing to do with it.  Game changes are in the terms and conditions you accepted when you installed the game, and I've seen plenty of items that took players months of work to obtain removed from subscription games before.

Edited by polarity
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I hope DE can take my response seriously...this is very important.

the only solution to all of this is to create new mission types or adjust the current missions.
Why? Let me explain:

First, players will never feel good when it comes to nerf. When you introduce something new, then nerf it after a few days, this will only lead to tiredness.

Well, the good thing is this will bring up new players, because this is flesh to them. Bad thing is old players will certainly feel tredness to all of these. "This is the same old DE again...they gonna nerf it."

Second, under the current situation, it is impossible to re-adjust the enemies' armour and damage scale because players have been getting used to it for a long time.

Third. Why it is good to create new mission types and maps for different kinds of weapons. I have to say I like the idea of you can only use bow at the area. But why not let them use those things in a specific situation (to make them feel good) because ultimately people wants to use that weapon either because it can deal tons of damage or it is fun. Why not try to create a sniper room challenge just for sniper rifle...coz lets face it, if you place people in a interception mission, and you force them to use bow...you know they will try to hack it by using trinity...banshee or hydriod team...Honestly do you want this to happpen? I don't think so because people are not using those weapons to solve the situation!!! I can barely see people using amplex or galaxion these days...but they are fun!!!!

Why not try to create an amplex mission which you can only use amplex to move items to solve the puzzle? Why not create a sniper rifle room for those who wants to use sniper rifle to shoot? Why not create a bow room just like the Olympic one where you can try to shoot target by only using the bow...

Now about the reward, you will ask: but they will just do them for resources...or good things...such as prime mods? they always expecting more!!!

it's easy, you need to make people to compete for this challenges, for the sigil!!!

You can have a board that record people who have high accuracy, give them a chance to show their skills in game in public, and reward them with sigil or super rare items.

Overall, I really hope DE can create new mission types for old weapons...such as bow only...sniper rifle only etc mission types (just like the sortie ones but create specific room for the weapons) People want more damage? good, ignore them and make other missions to attract them:) Teach the players using those missions. make them understand that damage doesnt matter at all....Eventually, how to survive in a certain condition without the power, is the most important thing in this game:)

 

Edited by sNot_beta
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I really hate this whole idea. Sorry nothing you can do can really fix it, at least for me. If the idea behind riven mods is to encourage players to use unused wepaons then, well, sorry but why? We don't use those weapons for one reason or another, either power or style. We tried those weapons and many times deleted them to free up slots. I'm not going back and rebuilding all the old weapons just to try them again. If you want to raise the power of bad weapons then... just buff them.

Putting the carrot of a new soma mod out there for me and then hiding it under a pile of trash mods I will never use (since they all come only from the 1 a day sortie) is just cruel and frustrating. I like your game, but stop trying to force me to use "other things". I played them all, I'm MR 22. I hate bows. Sorry, no uber bow will get me to use bows. Just don't like em, bUt I gotta have a weapons slot dedicated one anyway (sorite) and now you want to give me a Riven mod so I'll take another stab at the Paris? Unlikely. Buff the Paris all you want, and Kudos to the Paris users, they get buffs, I'm happy for them, but throwing Paris mods at ME while I'm trying to get a Soma or Ignis mod is just insulting because DE wants me to use lesser used weapons. I Found my niche.

 

This is like putting Vengeful Revenant out there on Sentients. I want VR so I farm sentients but Sentients have a low level chance to drop a stance mod, like really rare. And when that triggers it can be ANY stance mod in the game. Imagine the outcry if the current chance to drop VR had been replaced by the same rare chance but then it rolled amongst all the stance mods to "encourage the players to use other melee weapons".

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