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[DE]Rebecca

[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 1!

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23 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Finally someone that admits they, as a human, want to min max, to make better; and that a game that let's them do this beyond acceptable levels is a poorly designed game.

Finally someone who has the nerve to admit it.

The problem is not that the Riven System has some issues, as they will get fixed anyway. The problem is, as usual, that players took the OP mods and now act suprised when they get balanced. And then they start complaining because they where stupid enought to dump alot of plat on the player market and think that it entitels them to keep OP stuff because "they spend plat on it". Its like ppl being suprised about sunshine at summer or snowfall at winter.

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18 minutes ago, Xebov said:

The problem is not that the Riven System has some issues, as they will get fixed anyway. The problem is, as usual, that players took the OP mods and now act suprised when they get balanced. And then they start complaining because they where stupid enought to dump alot of plat on the player market and think that it entitels them to keep OP stuff because "they spend plat on it". Its like ppl being suprised about sunshine at summer or snowfall at winter.

Honestly, Im partially divided on that case.

It is true that "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me"... But regardless of how obvious it is, fooling does not stop being morally condemnable.

I don't expect this mods to be kept as they are for the sake of the stupid amounts of plat some people who didn't bothered with forward thinking wasted. But I do think DE should stop with this "act first, think later" mentality that has never brought anything but bitterness and salt to the table.

Would it be that hard to make this mods untradeable for the first few weeks?

Edited by tnccs215

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To start, I'd like to say that I enjoyed The War Within and appreciate all the work you guys put into it.

However, this thread is meant to house feedback with regards to the new system of Riven Mods, so that's what I'll get into.

I've played a few games where this type of cycling system exists, so I can definitely see the appeal. However, I see some key differences between the way this system is implemented and the way other games have handled it. While I can understand adding values to the rolls that can increase a weapon's damage, I am left wondering if there is any system in place to balance out the stats that are rolled. For example, the increasing Kuva costs for rerolling may discourage players from constantly cycling the stats, but if I were able to afford said costs, what is stopping me from cycling stats that are pure damage boosts, or that repeat themselves in the same roll (e.g. roll a Riven Mod and get stats such as: +elemental, +elemental, +damage)?

I've seen this kind of combination in other games, but the way it was set up, it was something that could be applied to any piece of equipment and would not lock you into a specific weapon or accessory. In turn, part of the reason why this combination wasn't as desirable there was because some equipment wouldn't benefit from such a boost, and so players wanted a bit of diversity in their stats and equipment.

Now, I know that the main goal was to give players a reason to return to underpowered weapons, which is why these mods were locked to specific weapons. However, the many different kinds of stats that a player can roll leaves the impression that you guys simply weren't sure about what would be the best way to improve the weapons and simply left it up to the player to figure it out for their own personal builds. Unfortunately, because so many of these stats give significant improvements to the weapon's damage output, it doesn't motivate players to create diverse builds outside of builds that increase damage in some form or another. Not to mention that the lack of drawbacks generally leaves players with a mod that buffs the weapon to a significant extent.

Personally, I would have enjoyed seeing Riven Mods act as upgrades for these weapons in ways that would promote builds that are less focused on damage and more on preference and style of gameplay. To give an example, a Riven Mod could increase status proc duration by a significant extent, and increase recoil or decrease magazine capacity. Alternatively, it could increase magazine capacity while decreasing punchthrough, or increase reload speed at the cost of decreasing flight speed. This is not to say that such mods would guarantee that players would add them to their builds instead of stacking damage, but existing mods that have similar effects feel too underpowered to justify their use even outside of 'meta' builds for said weapons. Having +300% Magazine Capacity for a Vectis may not result in an increase to DPS, but some players may enjoy it nonetheless.

Aside from this, I'm sure other players have posted more significant and in-depth feedback about the system that go much further than I will attempt, so hopefully their feedback is taken into consideration.

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25 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Honestly, Im partially divided on that case.

It is true that "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me"... But regardless of how obvious it is, fooling does not stop being morally condemnable.

I don't expect this mods to be kept as they are for the sake of the stupid amounts of plat some people who didn't bothered with forward thinking wasted. But I do think DE should stop with this "act first, think later" mentality that has never brought anything but bitterness and salt to the table.

Would it be that hard to make this mods untradeable for the first few weeks?

What has this to do with morale? The Riven System came in and there was no advertising that it would stay that way. It was players who expected something new to stay as it is.

 

There is also no point in making them untradeable for the first weeks. I traded some of them with my friends to help with unlocking or get help with it. Making them no trade would just be a safety measure to prevent stupid ppl from doing stupid things.

 

Im honest, i dont care if someone dumps 2k or 3k plat into one of the mods. Its their decision, if they make poor decisions they have to live with that. What annoys me is that ppl make assumtions about new stuff and than cry for compensation because things didnt turn out as they expected.

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Some of the issues I have with Rivens, is when I'm trying to unveil the mod, it's really difficult to tell when you've completed the required task unless you go to the progress menu or the esc menu. IE, right now, I have a Riven mod challenge that requires me to get 19 kills in a row while wall dashing or wall clinging without touching the floor without raising any alarms, I'm sure there are people out there who can get that first go, but me, it's kind of hard for me, mainly because I've never been good at the wall run and gun, and unless I have a team that let's me get all the kills, or I manage to find a nice LARGE tile where I can cling to the walls, and jump around, it's difficult for me to tell how many kills I'm getting that count toward my goal, does it end when I jump onto a zip line.  

 

This could easily be fixed by giving a small counter that displays the amount you got, and the amount you need like it does on the mod card, but make it a status Icon like when you're hit with fire, or shock damage, or someone's team ability. Make it so it glows until you've failed the challenge. This is also the same issue that I have with normal challenges, there's no way to view them, without the progress or ESC menus, in the progress menu it does show the challenge, but it's not a part of the progress menu UI at all, it's a pop up UI behind the progress menu UI.

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I like what I am seeing so far and I like the sound of the upcoming changes (provided they are moderate)

What I would like to see is DE roll out more mods for more weapon groups.

...My Struns await.

Alternately, you could make a suite of Riven mods that are un-aspected and have to be attuned to specific weapons (i.e. equip them to a suitable weapon and an amount of xp while it's equipped. You'd probably have to place weapons in tiers to set reasonable limits on where it could be slotted though.

 

21 hours ago, LegitBeastin said:

Thats like saying giving an artist one crayon will make his art more creative.

...That's because it will.

Charcoal drawings, wood carving, and Sculpting are three very good examples of a single medium being used to achieve almost incredible results.

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6 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I like what I am seeing so far and I like the sound of the upcoming changes (provided they are moderate)

What I would like to see is DE roll out more mods for more weapon groups.

...My Struns await.

Alternately, you could make a suite of Riven mods that are un-aspected and have to be attuned to specific weapons (i.e. equip them to a suitable weapon and an amount of xp while it's equipped. You'd probably have to place weapons in tiers to set reasonable limits on where it could be slotted though.

 

...That's because it will.

Charcoal drawings, wood carving, and Sculpting are three very good examples of a single medium being used to achieve almost incredible results.

An artist isn't trying to minmax his weapon loadout though.

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Imagine, in a year we'll have another mod type called Power Creep mods. Here's an example!

Power-Creep Soma-cron

+10000% Damage Increase

+14000% Crit Chance

+ A gazillion percent% Evasion if flying through air while on FIRE

- 0% Chance to get anything right

Mastery Rank 1 Locked Soma Only

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They're just mandatory mods which are more mandatory and powerful than the previous one, they force people to forma more and readjust their previous builds. Destroyed mod system balance in the process.

 

You can trade them, leads to multiple accounts exploit.

 

RNG generated stats divide players with good luck from bad luck even they put in the same amount of time and effort.

Edited by Volinus7

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So is it clearly confirmed that insane stats on meta weapon Rivens will be nerfed ?

Edited by Gr1mjawT

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On 11/14/2016 at 6:04 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We want to give players something unique to them that can speak to their wider Arsenal. We want to give new life to the Arsenal in a non-static way.


We have started to add quirks to weapons, as shown with the recent Syndicate Melees, and this is supposed to be a continuation of that train of thought: we want players to be able to use their weapons in new ways that typical builds don’t encourage or allow. The current maximum number of 15 Riven Mods is a reflection of this, as limitations encourages creativity and choice.

I find this to be an out and out contradiction. The point is to make us think more about those weapons we never use (which there are a lot of), so that we can play with and experiment with more variety, yet the system inherently prevents us from tinkering (at least riven wise) with more than 15 weapons. I can't say it bothers me enormously yet, but the fact is that there are about 15 riffles I like, let's say about 10 I really like, obviously, I'm going to prioritize those mods, and what does that leave me with? 5 weapons to experiment with? And let's be honest, even if I don't invest 50, 000 kuva in re rolling x mod, having played and customized it myself I'm not going to want to ditch it, so I'm a little screwed. Also, what happens when there are riven mods for other weapon classes? Do we get an allotment of 15 per class? What about the sprawling melee class, is 15 still enough to encourage experimentation? I can thin 14 melee weapons that I'd want to have special mods for, so I'm only going to be able to experiment with 1 weapon? Heck, there are some weapons I really like, and may want to have different riven mods so I can have totally different quacked-out builds ready to go at all time, what do I do now? 

I don't think riven mods were the best choice of a new system, but we have them, and I intend to 'play nice' with them, as it were. Today I got a grinlock riven mod and got real excited, because I love that gun despite it being relatively under-powered and I'm definitely looking forward to choosing my rolls carefully to make it a beast (beast-ling, at least). I can't say I appreciate the limit on riven mods, but I really don't appreciate trying to pass it off as "encouraging" us to do anything, the random, erratic (not complaining by the way, love this about it) nature of the system already does that by giving us quasi-unique mods to use. So I'd like to, at least suggest, a reconsideration of this limit, of any kind of limit here, because it entirely discourages what the mods allow and encourage us to do. 

 

As for scaling the power level of mods based on weapons, this I am 100% on board and happy to see, I think that this is, encouraging us to tinker and makes me very excited about the future of my grinlock (and others, oh the possibilities, endless... not really, there are 15... endless possibilities but I get to play with 15). I do think it'll be very touchy, and selecting which weapons are going into "get super mods", "get good mods" or "get usable mods" is going to be more than a little touch and go, I can see it being frustrating in specific cases, but I'm not too worried.  

P.S. Maybe take a look at cycling cost scaling, I can't say I have experience with it yet, but knowing the numbers, it seems just a little too rough, just a little.

Thanks for your time, The war withing quest, by the way, stellar :thumbup:

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19 minutes ago, Virsalus said:

An artist isn't trying to minmax his weapon loadout though.

Considering that min-maxing isn't in the least creative,  I don't even see how this applies.

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1 minute ago, Padre_Akais said:

Considering that min-maxing isn't in the least creative,  I don't even see how this applies.

It applies because the system allows for it and as such that is what most people will do first. Only after that will they actually get creative.

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8 minutes ago, Virsalus said:

It applies because the system allows for it and as such that is what most people will do first. Only after that will they actually get creative.

With respect to your opinion...It doesn't.

Min-Maxing is the act of minimizing undesired/low yielding traits in the interests of maximizing one or two strong traits to best effect.

i.e. Dirt simple.

The fact that it's allowed is cool, but they've outright told you why they limited the number of mods and it sounds like a means to encourage creativity and meaningful choices as opposed to merely slapping damage, multi-shot, crit/status, and elemental combos on gear.

You don't have to like or agree with it... But you can't say you don't understand why they did it. They spelled that out fairly well.

If you feel like it should be fodder for a debate, then debate it with DE directly.

 

 

 

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See that is the problem. The reason they provided for introducing these mods simply is not what the current state of this system actually encourages. It does not encourage creativity. Not yet at least.

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Thanks for the update bae. But please do away with this incremental kuva price for mods; it makes wanting to reroll a riven feel like way too much of a chore. Seeing as how we already have a multitude of hoops to jump through for riven mods, how about having a set price to alleviate some of the process? Plus with the fact that kuva is a resource for building things such as weapons (and I'm sure in the future items such as Warframes), we could use somewhat of a little wiggle room for the kuva.

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6 hours ago, mhn23-EGT- said:

This guy gets it.

I invested alot of Platinum into the Weapons i play most and that are meta because i find them to have my desired power and utility at the same time. Now you are saying that what i invested in was a fake and shouldnt be for sale anyway. Good Job.

I dont know how this got greenlit by whoever made this system. It was effen obvious that ppl like me are loving to min max their gear when you are able to get absurdly good stats for meta weapons? I even applied for the test cluster and were told its already full? did they ever test this? who is testing this system and who is actually putting it in real world application?

i'm somewhat disappointed that we are getting punished for the lack of foresight of the obvious dilemma you are creating with the system. if you wanted to buff underused weapons then give them effects or stats that match weapons that are meta or nerf them all completely. there is no reason to play the tetra or dera with a riven mod when they still underperform heavily against a tonkor with 2 mods installed. in the meantime you introduce more and more powerful weapons with each prime access to give players a reason to buy it in the first place.

you are punishing your players with the lack of oversight and testing your systems before on a test cluster, which you are way to selective off.

 

Yeah, If the nerfs do happen, then DE has given one more good reason not to buy any plats(have not bought any since an year ago).  This was  a plain money-grabbing technique from them to get players to buy plats to purchase these mods.

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On November 14, 2016 at 8:45 PM, TheDarkStarChimaera said:

"Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style."
We have no agency towards that, though. It's RNG to get a Riven mod from sorties, RNG for the unveil challenge, RNG for the weapon, RNG for the stats, RNG for Kuva to appear in the mission if you want to reroll, RNG for the new stats. When I ran a total of 5 hours of T3 Survival for Saryn Prime Chassis over the process of two weeks, I did not feel accomplished. I felt lucky, but quite bitter. 

How can we change our play style if the barrier to that is beyond our control? What do we do in the meantime? Endldessly grind sorties for a low drop rate of Franekenstein's RNG monster? 

"We’re all familiar with blazing through missions to the Extraction Point,"
Speaking of, that's exactly what's happening with Kuva right now. We have no way to guarantee the spawn, and we're getting nothing useful on the 100th Sedna Capture mission (because the rewards are irrelevant and not worth it to "endgame" players), so you're making us blaze through for the Kuva. Please give us an actual structure to these missions. Make them rotating alerts, make them an actual mission type, SOMETHING. Having to pointlessly run a mission for the off chance what you want appears isn't gameplay, it's a grindwall. Please give us some form of agency and reduce the RNG. 

"Yes, meta weapons are in the selection pool, but Riven Mods are not needed to make this gear (like the Tonkor or Synoid Simulor) more powerful."

So, logically, if the top tier weapons don't need Riven Mods...You could have just not given them Riven mods? They'd still be the easiest thing to max out and use, but the Riven mods could buff the weaker weapons towards their level. And it's clear that some weapons are set to be weak, Scott has said as much multiple times on dev streams that there is an esoteric ranking system in play. 

"This is why we have prevented players from choosing what weapon the Riven Mod will be for; if we didn’t, we would end up with millions of Soma Mods and none for the Gorgon."

Lastly..
"We wanted this system to allow players to experiment with their Arsenal in existing end-game missions."

And the endgame is...? Law of Retribution understandably so has a CC, not kill meta, because the enemies at those levels with hitscan weapons will frustratingly one-shot players while they work on the puzzles. This isn't even unique to Warframe, in any game you don't want enemies hitting and disrupting you while you solve something that limits your combat capabilities. 
Sorties are there, sure, but that's just an infinite loop. We grind sorties to get Riven mods to grind sorties again for more Riven mods? 
No Dark Sectors yet. 
Sentients aren't important to end game. They have no role in this game other than farming Vengeful Revenant (a mod for an adequate, but not top-tier weapon category). 
Endless Relics are back but 75 waves or 75 minutes of Defense/Survival just for ONE radiant relic (if I understand rightly, correct me if I'm wrong) isn't going to be on everyone's to do list. Putting aside the question of equipment and preparedness with Riven mods, the time investement is ridiculous. 
So what is the existing end-game you expect us to use the Riven mods in that ISN'T the sorties (because that's where we GET these mods)?

1.  Riven Disposition needs to be inversely proportional to the strength of the weapon it is chosen for if the system is to work in a balanced way.

2.  "Here there be MONSTERS".

From a storytelling perspective, I suspect another solar system beyond the rails where the Sentinel home world lies, the truly monstrous origins of the Infested Hive Mind exists, and even possibly the Rebirth of the Immortal Orokin is to take place.

And perhaps a world where the Tenno can start anew.

It's going to be an endgame maelstrom of Gods, Titans, and Demonlords...

There lies your need for Riven...

 

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73

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On 15.11.2016 at 0:04 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style.

At this point maybe Warframe is just asking for too much? If end-game players own a broad arsenal alot of effort and time already went into it. This feels more like WoW`s first green drop on a new expansion. I don`t feel encouraged to keep my collection in shape at all, a huge portion of it gathering dust seems more likely. 

A fresh baked Hind, my favorite as little Tenno falling over his shoe laces is waiting at the foundry. I can`t bring myself to pick it up. 

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7 minutes ago, AcceptYourDeath said:

At this point maybe Warframe is just asking for too much? If end-game players own a broad arsenal alot of effort and time already went into it. This feels more like WoW`s first green drop on a new expansion. I don`t feel encouraged to keep my collection in shape at all, a huge portion of it gathering dust seems more likely. 

A fresh baked Hind, my favorite as little Tenno falling over his shoe laces is waiting at the foundry. I can`t bring myself to pick it up. 

"The first green drop of a new expansion" does a great job of encapsulating how Riven Mods feel for me as well.

It's not a good feeling.

It's an "oh, all the mods I directed time and effort to rank up are about to be entirely eclipsed in value" kind of feeling. Oh boy.

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So...you gave us riven capacity to inspire creativity and...choice? you're forcing us to choose favorite weapons? Assuming at the moment we are going to get riven's for secondaries and melee, and let's assume yet again that each new 'set' of riven's comes with a 15 cap...You're asking me...to choose favorite weapons of yours? I'll do that when you stop making so many fun ones, okay? It makes no sense for you to FORCE players into choosing a handful of specific weapons to be their 'favorite' for using riven mods.

I do love the rivens, I really do, the RNG stats are fun and interesting, the resource cost could use some tweaking, challenges need some work still(Seriously, scan a simarus target without any abilities or traps and take 0 damage is crazy.) And...please give us a way to increase the MR on the riven card, or just remove it completely and have the stats be pure RNG, or just based off of OUR mastery rank, not the card's mastery rank.

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You say that riven mods are supposed to make less used weapons more competitive and usable... But what I see is a category of mod that's mostly suited to push already top tier gear even higher... In effect making the difference between top tier and trash tier even more apparent... And pushing "mastery fodder" even further down the gutter...

Because let's face it, once you have your shiny + 150% Crit Chance + 150% Crit Multiplier +100% Damage Riven mod for one top tier weapon (Tonkor, Simulor, Tigris, Soma), you just made 98% of the other primaries dramatically inferior choices. How can a weapon for which you don't own a riven mod for even compete with these monsters now ? Why would you use said weapons ? How is it going to feel going from a six forma tonkor with an OP Riven mod to leveling a no forma, no catalyst newly released primary for which you don't own the riven mod ?

Sure, when you get your first Riven mod, and it's for a weapon you haven't used for months, maybe you'll use said weapon shortly to try the probably badly rolled mod.. But are you really going to spend tons of Kuva to reroll a Riven for a mastery fodder gun ? Are you going to keep using said gun once you finally get that Tonkor op mod or whatever ? Probably not ! Likewise, since you don't choose which gun you get a riven mod for , this means , in a sense, RNG (or plat if you buy them) dictates which weapon you'll be allowed to use... Removing player choice in a sense.

Before Riven mods, mastery fodder weapons had a small chance of being used by veterans, if they enjoyed the mechanics behind them. A vet would spend a couple of hours putting formas on said weapon, and would use it on non-endgame , meta requiring scenarios...

But the thing with riven mods is... They require heavy farming against RNG (getting them for sorties, then getting a decent riven weapon choice , then getting decent mods trough numerous rerolls). It's a lot of time and effort to actually get a good roll on a Riven Mod, too much effort for trash tier weapons... This means there's Riven for "good" weapons and riven for "bad" weapons. While someone can luck out and get an awesome roll for a bad weapon ,making it useful... The most common scenario is people ignoring trash Riven mods and trying to get Riven for their best weapons... The fact there's 15 Riven slots also promotes this kind of mindeset. Why spend Kuva on maxing mods for bad guns, especialyl when you'll discard said mods eventually to make room for Riven for primaries you actually use.

In the end, I feel like a real solution would have been to take a look at each existing weapon individually, and offer a non-random Riven mod that "fixed" most of their glaring issues. Let's say a weapon had a long reload and low crit chance, you fix it with a Riven mod... That would have made sense and would have allowed even low MR trash tier weapons to be competitive... Then again, if you make this balancing effort already, might as well rebalance all weapons in the game so that mastery fodder tier doesn't exist...

I guess my main issue about this is that you guys have been blabbering about for months about damage 3.0, rebalancing stuff, removing mandatory mods and stuff like multistrike, yet now you released the most imbalanced mods in the history of the game with no regards to any sort of balance whatsoever... This widens the gap between weapons, widens the gap between new player and veterans, makes a handful of weapons in one's arsenal much better than the rest and imho only adds more grind to an already grind intensive game. I feel that the joy of making you favorite weapon even more OP pales compared to having the other 99% of your arsenal feel worse by comparaison because you don't own perfectly rolled riven for theose guns, and I feel even less compelled to build mastery fodder to their full potential now that it requires numerous layer of RNG and countless more effort than in the past.

I gues the TLRD version is this - In a game with hundreds of weapons you're supposed to use, why go from an universal mod setup allowing you to use any mod on any weapon to a restrictive system where you can only make a handful of weapons good and outclasse the rest of your arsenal.

Edited by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

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God I hate the concept of riven disposition. Sounds like to me you're going to nerf good riven mods to the point where they are not worth the slot, or people have to roll them ad nauseum because the scaling is worse for good weapons.

Edited by Snowbluff

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My feedback about the new mod system are pretty much summarized by the following:

Pros:

  • You can potentially get nice mods with secondary stats to replace mods that took up 2 slots in your mod slots for a weapon
  • You can get nice stats that boost overall damage output
  • You can get stats that boost utility for a weapon

Cons:

  • No control over whether a riven mod will appear for your favorite weapon or not (I'm trying to find one for the vectis )
  • I can't choose what utility stats (ex. reload speed, punchthrough, magazine capacity) will appear for my riven mod
  • Some of the riven mods further increase the damage output of weapons that already deal enough damage to most enemies
  • Can't choose the polarity of the mod to fit with weapons that have been already forma'd many times for other mods

I'm not sure how the community is suppose to get creative if the stats we are given are based around RNG and does not give the actually player a choice on how to use the mod to improve on the weapon's own unique advantages.

Edited by MegatronG1

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