[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 1!

[Virsalus]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)ax1L3 said:

well it could be more fun then hearing people cry .. cos there not getting what they want... not trying to be mean i say it how i see it

You call it crying, I call it feedback. We won't come to an agreement on this.

[LuckySh0t501]

With the time you had, or rather used, to make this update, you could have done a total re-balance of the older weapons and just called it a day. No need to make a silly new systems. But I guess it's just much easier to leave it up to RNG.

[(XBOX)ax1L3]

2 minutes ago, Virsalus said:

You call it crying, I call it feedback. We won't come to an agreement on this.

yea well not everyone thinks the same so not much to say when you hit a brick wall but you can tear it down but you will destroyed some one else's work   

[schilds]

These mods railroad your choices, but I've raved enough about that elsewhere. Aside from that, it is reasonable to discuss the good/bad distribution of these mods. The devs, at least, should be thinking about it. Apologies for the wall of text ;-).

 

Say you have a clan of 100 people. They all play as much as each other. Imagine that, on reaching this part of the game, maybe 10 of them get good mods from the quest straight away, 20 have good mods after a month, while the rest still don't. Something like this will happen under a rng based system. We already know that there will be a group with good luck and good mods and a group with bad luck and bad mods. With any other equipment, everyone else could have spent some time grinding to mitigate bad rng, but with Riven mods, there's nothing you can do. When (or whether) you catch up or not is just luck.

It doesn't even have to be a clan, maybe it's just a group of friends. Imagine that there is some content that requires the mods. There isn't at the moment, but what about in the future? This is a changing game. With the rate you get these mods, you can expect that some number of people in the group will not be able to join their friends in playing that content for a long period of time. Do you think that's healthy? They can't even spend that time increasing their chances of getting a nice mod, as they can with other equipment available now. That's the potential problem. 

That means all Riven mods do is introduce a new meta. It won't be: "Do you have CP? No? Can't join, sorry". It'll be: "Do you have a decent Riven? No? Can't join, sorry". It may not be as black and white as that. Maybe it just restricts the roles they can play in a party. Maybe they still play together but the unlucky half feel useless compared to the lucky half (who sit there telling them to cry more - we know there are people who will do that because they're right here on the forums). How much fun is it for a group with vastly different levels of power? Again, is that healthy?

Perhaps these mods are named better than we know.

 

Of course, at the moment this is just fear. It may never happen this way. Maybe there's never going to be content like that. Maybe there will be, but it'll be those "endless" missions that most people don't care about anyway - they can't stay that extra 7th hour in the game, whoopdeedoo (that's not sarcasm, btw :-P). Maybe the rng is arranged such that everyone can expect to have one decent mod within a week or two and the period, during which the group is riven, is short.

We don't know where things are going, but we can at least raise potential issues before they occur so that DE can think about them, if they aren't already.

Edited November 16, 2016 by schilds

[Xebov]

32 minutes ago, (XB1)ax1L3 said:

well it could be more fun then hearing people cry .. cos there not getting what they want... not trying to be mean i say it how i see it

Some ppl do cry, thats for sure, but most offer feedback and show the issues they having. So far Riven Mods are a bit of a mess as it stands. They generate a good number of mods that are unusable because the negative effects outwight the positive ones, or the positive effects dont have any impact on the given weapon. So far you can generate mods with +/- weapon recoil for weapons that dont have any recoil, you can generate +/- mag size on weapons that dont have mags or puncture/slash/impact damage on weapons that are pure elemental. On top of that most weapons have a clear direction they should be modded into to be effective, resulting in only a handfull riven mods being actually useable.

[(XBOX)ax1L3]

2 minutes ago, Xebov said:

Some ppl do cry, thats for sure, but most offer feedback and show the issues they having. So far Riven Mods are a bit of a mess as it stands. They generate a good number of mods that are unusable because the negative effects outwight the positive ones, or the positive effects dont have any impact on the given weapon. So far you can generate mods with +/- weapon recoil for weapons that dont have any recoil, you can generate +/- mag size on weapons that dont have mags or puncture/slash/impact damage on weapons that are pure elemental. On top of that most weapons have a clear direction they should be modded into to be effective, resulting in only a handfull riven mods being actually useable.

i see your and its a good point but ive see people say nurf this and nurf that and that will set more people off in the long run 

[Virsalus]

1 minute ago, (XB1)ax1L3 said:

i see your and its a good point but ive see people say nurf this and nurf that and that will set more people off in the long run 

So you don't think a constantly red critting weapon is imbalanced?

[Insizer]

1 hour ago, (XB1)ax1L3 said:

i find it sad that everyone cares so much what everyone else has got and does instead of being happy and have fun with what you got...

I got a snipetron mod at first, and not even a good one either. But the attica one was a nice find.

[(XBOX)ax1L3]

2 minutes ago, Virsalus said:

So you don't think a constantly red critting weapon is imbalanced?

i do but i dont so we will start nurfing every thing so its on the same level as the weakest stuff and then there will be no problem cos everything will be the same i think it would be fun red critting every thing .. but my goal in a game is to have fun not to make my self the best of the best everyone and everything is different   

[(XBOX)ax1L3]

1 minute ago, Insizer said:

I got a snipetron mod at first, and not even a good one either. But the attica one was a nice find.

thats nice

[tnccs215]

2 hours ago, (XB1)ax1L3 said:

i find it sad that everyone cares so much what everyone else has got and does instead of being happy and have fun with what you got...

Because this isn't real life; or hell, just a cash upfront game with no ingame economy.

In purely gameplay terms, ensuring a degree of difficulty curve and progression is fundamental to ensuring the player feels satisfied with progressing. More than that, a game that has more easy and effective ways to play than others at its endgame is a poorly designed game. Someone who likes the simulor is automatically privileged compared to someone who doesn't. How is that fair?

This is all more intensified in a multiplayer game (be it pve or not). If playing well but with ineffective equipment that you love is okayish in any single player game, watching other people in your own squad getting all the kills (and don't come with that "oh but affinity is shared so kill steals don't exist!". Some of us actually see the gameplay as part of the experience, not just a nuisance to get over to reach the reward) is purely frustrating.

As I've said before, "overpowered is not a playstyle. It's a design fault".

The problems don't stop here however, and even if you are one of those STEM-supremacists who deny the importance or even existence of all matters emotional, you still have to deal with the economic issues.

You see, Warframe is a f2p game, and that means it must have a rather refined in game economy and f2p elements. Like many games of this genre, Warframe uses several "Skinner Box" techniques, in which an illusory sense of gratification keeps you playing way past you actually liking it. Added to this and more importantly, it must be rewarding enough to keep you playing, but frustrating enough to make you want to spend money in order to reduce said frustration.

This is where the importance of difficulty and balance comes in. While waiting walls are an effective way of blocking the player from the shinny thing they want,it is also too frustrating. Well made difficulty, fair challenge, isn't. It limits the access to resources while ensuring the player wont quit in frustration. It keeps the player hooked, happy, and with their wallet open.

All in all, if in cash upfront games challenge and difficulty is important to deliver an experience, in f2p games it is fundamental to both the experience and the developers belly.

So... What happens when overpowered items come into play?

The challenge is reduced. The difficulty curve becomes less prominent, the maximum level becomes easier to beat... And resources become easier to obtain.

So the developer has three options: 1)they risk ruining the economy, ans leave stuff as it is; 2)they nerf the overpowered equipment, easily returning to the pre-existent fine tuning... Or 3)they introduce new mechanics that take into account the newly introduced power level... Effectively making it from optional to obligatory

Does this last option remind you of something? Nullifiers, perhaps, introduced so that the players wouldn't be able to stay all day long at a defense with Mag, without actually tweaking Mag? And that, in order to prevent abusive use of powers, also prevent the survival of any frame that needs their powers at higher levels of corpus? Sipping Ospreys, introduced for the same reason? The fact armor scaling as yet to be fixed?

You can continue to pretend the actions of some people won't affect any others in this game, but you are foolish to think so. DE has proven time and time again they'd rather mess with everyone else's playstyle over taking away an overpowered toy. And this kind of mentality, that victimizes the offensive while erasing everyone's else issues is what incites DE to act that way.

I've already had my legitimate fun ruined enough times only so that you could keep your broken unbalanced one.

Don't pretend indirect consequences aren't consequences.

So yes, the nerf to overpowered Riven mods, along with several other tweaks, is a thing that needs to happen, otherwise this game will see an unprecedented destruction of its power balancing.

And taking into account it's warframe we're talking about, that really is amazing and worrying

Edited November 16, 2016 by tnccs215

[KAHO16]

On 2016. 11. 15. at 8:04 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’.

Then you shouldn't make the mod with useless options

there are bunch of "literally useless options" in riven mods

(Slash damage in tetra mod or Recoil reduction in flux rifle for example. Tetra has no slash damage, Flux Rifle has no recoil.)

 

YOU CAN'T SAY THAT WITH THIS.

[Virsalus]

8 minutes ago, KAHO16 said:

Then you shouldn't make the mod with useless options

there are bunch of "literally useless options" in riven mods

(Slash damage in tetra mod or Recoil reduction in flux rifle for example. Tetra has no slash damage, Flux Rifle has no recoil.)

 

YOU CAN'T SAY THAT WITH THIS.

Absolutely. They give us purely random rolls and claim increasing the costs is meant to make us try the stats even if they are bad, great. Playing with an elemental dmg only gun and a +slash dmg riven mod won't make it better no matter how long we play!

So what if we get unlucky 10 times in a row? Are they expecting us to farm Kuva for all eternity to have another try? This is so nonsensical, it makes me actually question the competence of the people who come up with design decisions like that.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Virsalus

[HomShaBom]

DE, if you want to burn people out on Warframe and make them stop playing your game you should come up with a new system that makes farming a specific rare resource a requirement.

Oh, you did that already? Cool, let's see how this game is doing in a couple months.

[Chamber13]

Why not hear Brozime's opinion about this matter?

 

[notlamprey]

Spoiler

 

Excellent video.

Unfortunately, we have far too many folks who are failing to analyze ¹the glaring holes in all the reasoning of this Workshop post, and ²the massive problems these mod pose for the future of the game.

Edited November 16, 2016 by notlamprey

[HomShaBom]

Brozime doesn't have a unique perspective on this. He's saying the same thing we all are (obviously not counting the warped minds of people who spend ridiculous amounts of platinum for overpowered mods who want this to be a pay to win game).

Edited November 16, 2016 by HomShaBom

[tnccs215]

49 minutes ago, Chamber13 said:

Why not hear Brozime's opinion about this matter?

 

Because Im on the phone, in public.

:V

can you give me a general written overview?

Edited November 16, 2016 by tnccs215

[S0V3REiGN]

The RNG on these mods is complete BS. It's super rare getting one unless you cough up plat in trade chat. Then you pray to get a mod for something you even have/use. Then you hope to Jesus that you roll something useful because the massive grind wall to keep rerolling these mods gets absurd. After your 7th reroll and your mod is still crap don't tell I just have to "try a new build", what the hell is -134% damage going to do to spice up my build??? I legit deleted one of my Riven mods because BS like that.

i think too much RNG is a bad thing. Some of the stats make no sense at all, like why does my sentinel need a max ammo capacity increase??? why increase crit chance on weapons that have 0 crit chance? There should have been limiting stats for weapons specific mods.

Edited November 16, 2016 by S0V3REiGN

[Fylas]

On 15.11.2016 at 0:04 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Riven by nature stands for 'to split or tear apart violently' - which is an accurate summation of everyone's reactions to them! Cephalon Samodeus invites you to learn more about them and Mods in general here

*waits for melee rivens* ... *waits for venka riven* ... *rerolls riven till its something that adds even more range together with primed reach* .. CLEAAAAAAAAAVE ALL THE THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINGS *hysteria's a level in twain* ... err pls dun nerf? :o

[BadxHero]

I believe that Brozime said it best with his rant. This system really needs to change. It's more negative than it is positive because of the randomness. By making it so random and so unlikely to get the choice you WANT, you're not giving players the incentive to choose what they want their Riven Mod to be like, you're just giving them the choice to either throw the mod they have away with the chance to get the perfect roll. Which, in this system, will take FOREVER to get if you have everything so dependent on randomization. Just think of it like Destiny's loot system. No one likes it because there's such a stupid low chance of getting the things that you WANT from the things that you worked so hard to get, making your efforts pointless when you don't get something useful. This system needs changing, and if it doesn't, it may very well destroy your game completely. 

[CorrinAvatan]

51 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

 

51 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Because Im on the phone, in public.

:V

can you give me a general written overview?

Basically: they're too freaking random, and the idea of "try out the mod before you look for the perfect roll" is completely gutted, giving examples of how the mods he has gotten and seen are useless.

While I find that he's a bit vitriolic in the video, he does point out the flaws well, and once he gets to "this is how you could fix it"

He suggests that percentages for the modifiers should be fixed,

Also, that the pool of "possible rolls" need to be severely limited, to allow for a roll to be good for a weapon.

That if you roll something that has a good stat, allowing the ability to "lock" a specific stat during the Cycling, so that there is progress.

Also, kill the exponential cost of Kuva for re-rolls.  Lock the price, and to lock an attribute, costing another set amount (one time).

MR Scaling for the Stats, so the static increases allow for rewards for MR, but not so huge that it's a game-changer.

He then shows the system of Tera (other game) that allows rerolls.

His biggest problem is that there is no player agency in what they get, and the cards are so stacked against you for even getting a MODERATELY good mod, that it isn't fun.

To be honest, once he calms down (he's quite clearly angry at the beginning of the video), he makes really good points.  Basically the idea of "encourage people to try new builds" is ripped to shreds, as none of the mods are really "interesting".  YOu either get rolls that benefit your weapon, or rolls that don't do anything to your weapon (magazine size on Bows, for example).

Edited November 16, 2016 by CorrinAvatan

[Virsalus]

1 minute ago, CorrinAvatan said:

Basically: they're too freaking random, and the idea of "try out the mod before you look for the perfect roll" is completely gutted, giving examples of how the mods he has gotten and seen are useless.

While I find that he's a bit vitriolic in the video, he does point out the flaws 

As have a multitude of people in this thread already...

[Innosin]

While it's great to see that DE will be balancing the Riven mod around how effective a weapon currently is, I would recommend DE to fix the problem asap...

I can only see the backlash from the ppl getting their mods nerf stronger with each passing day.

 

[Virsalus]

5 minutes ago, Innosin said:

While it's great to see that DE will be balancing the Riven mod around how effective a weapon currently is, I would recommend DE to fix the problem asap...

I can only see the backlash from the ppl getting their mods nerf stronger with each passing day.

 

DE should have frozen the system right as it became clear that it was going out of hand. Waiting this long to introduce adjustmens is irresponsible at best.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Virsalus