[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 1!

[Rhundis]

On 11/14/2016 at 6:13 PM, AM-Bunny said:

So existing OP Riven Mods are going to be nerfed? Oh, this is going to be delicious.

I really enjoy the concept, and I think it could use some alterations (more ways to gain Kuva, and I'm really not fond of infinite increasing re-roll cost) but hopefully this system will get a generous amount of attention.

Appreciate the workshop.

From what I got out of this is existing riven mods for meta weapons are getting nerfed, but riven mods for underused weapons (braton, daikyu, etc) are getting a buff or staying as they are.

[Rhundis]

On 11/14/2016 at 6:04 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Finished The War Within? If so, then you've received your first of a new class of Mod: Riven Mods!

Riven by nature stands for 'to split or tear apart violently' - which is an accurate summation of everyone's reactions to them! Cephalon Samodeus invites you to learn more about them and Mods in general here. For those of you who don’t know the specifics, Riven Mods have randomly generated stats (including MR requirement and polarities) for one randomly-selected weapon that are revealed once you complete a specific challenge.


Firstly, we should all understand our goal and why this goal existed in the first place:

We want to give players something unique to them that can speak to their wider Arsenal. We want to give new life to the Arsenal in a non-static way.

Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style. We’re all familiar with blazing through missions to the Extraction Point, but this system gives players new challenges that require them to test the creative limits of their Arsenal in their quest to Unveil their new Mods. Yes, meta weapons are in the selection pool, but Riven Mods are not needed to make this gear (like the Tonkor or Synoid Simulor) more powerful. What they can do is add an interesting buff to a comparatively underpowered weapon in order to encourage players to think outside of that meta box.

This is why we have prevented players from choosing what weapon the Riven Mod will be for; if we didn’t, we would end up with millions of Soma Mods and none for the Gorgon. The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’. For those of you who want to find the best Mod possible, that avenue is available to you, but that is not the goal behind this system.

We have started to add quirks to weapons, as shown with the recent Syndicate Melees, and this is supposed to be a continuation of that train of thought: we want players to be able to use their weapons in new ways that typical builds don’t encourage or allow. The current maximum number of 15 Riven Mods is a reflection of this, as limitations encourages creativity and choice.


Secondly, this system will be slow to roll out and include iteration.

Perhaps you've noticed only Rifle Mods exist in the Riven tier at this time - this is no accident.

We want to hear what our community thinks, which is the reason why we only implemented these for Rifles. Perhaps there are tweaks to this system that can make these Mods more unique and interesting beyond randomized stats so that our intentions are clearer. This mechanic is something that hasn’t existed in Warframe before, and we want to be careful in making sure it doesn’t undermine our ultimate goals for the game.

We took a risk (Warframe wouldn't be here without risks), and the insight our fans offer us is so incredibly valuable as we work to make Riven Mods, and Warframe, better. As Developers, we want to emphasize: nothing is set in stone. Warframe is known to be always changing and adapting. Remember that groups work best together when respect is shown, so while we can and do look past a lot of vitriol to find what you think, it's better that you express your thought without it.


Lastly, what is the immediate iteration you can expect?

In the past 3 or so days since The War Within has been released, our community brought up some very pertinent points concerning this system. The first is trading, and the lack of UI indication of how many times a Mod has been Cycled and the Weapon it is for, which will soon be added to both Veiled (after the initial Unveiling) and Unveiled Mods. For example, a Cycled Lanka mod will appear as Lanka Riven Mod until it is unveiled again.

Your commentary about meta weapons has been taken to heart as well, and we will be tweaking the algorithm to account for 'Riven Disposition'.

'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.

This modification will also affect existing Riven Mods to reflect our desire to give new life to ‘discarded’ weapons in a unique way, and not increase the power of the top tier ones. Prepare to see a difference in stats of existing Riven Mods in an upcoming hotfix. Warframe content will not be balanced around Riven Mods, but Riven Mods will be balanced within their own ecosystem. We wanted this system to allow players to experiment with their Arsenal in existing end-game missions. It's not our intention to add content where these Mods will be necessary - it brings new ways of experiencing the existing game.

These are just some immediate changes we will be making, but we will be taking the rest of your feedback into consideration as we further develop this system.


Thank you for taking the time to read this post. The Riven system will go and change, and for those who choose to use it, this is a post that covers what you can expect!

 

Question: what do you consider to be a discarded weapon? Lately I've been working on Riven mods for the Braton Prime and Daikyu because they're my favorite weapons but aren't very viable for higher level missions. Will this change make these particular rivens worse? A list of weapons that fall into this "discarded" field would be appreciated.

[tnccs215]

46 minutes ago, CorrinAvatan said:

snipitysnoop

So, in short, the same arguments most eloquent people in here voiced? That is good, and I preemptively agree with most things you described.

Most.

Oddly, while I do agree that the amount of RNG is brutal in this things, I am not bothered with it as much as many people in here are.

That is, there are some facets of RNG in here that most people disagree with, while I personally don't:

If we ignore the downright stupid randomness of stats (giving way too big bonuses to some weapons and literally ineffective ones to others), I am not bothered by the fact the random assignment of the mod to a certain weapon. It's probably the only thing that does incite the player to try and use an unusual weapon... This falls flat once you take into account how poorly made the system is applied, though.

[AutoPhox]

I like where the thoughts of the riven mod system is going. I'd like to see sentinel weapons be excluded. Its a sad thought to get a cool new mod system, only to have it stuck on an autonomous drone. The player can't even have fun with it at that point. Especially if the player prefers kavats...

[Virsalus]

6 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

So, in short, the same arguments most eloquent people in here voiced? That is good, and I preemptively agree with most things you described.

Most.

Oddly, while I do agree that the amount of RNG is brutal in this things, I am not bothered with it as much as many people in here are.

That is, there are some facets of RNG in here that most people disagree with, while I personally don't:

If we ignore the downright stupid randomness of stats (giving way too big bonuses to some weapons and literally ineffective ones to others), I am not bothered by the fact the random assignment of the mod to a certain weapon. It's probably the only thing that does incite the player to try and use an unusual weapon... This falls flat once you take into account how poorly made the system is applied, though.

They could put other incentives for trying rivens on less used weapons. For example by offering a mastery bonus for doing so. We're all still very far away from MR30 and the ranks only require more and more points each time. If we keep going at the current pace and only get to level MR up with weapons, frames and the pathetic navigation chart bonus, we'll have reached MR30 in 10 years maybe.

Regarding the randomness. It's fine als long as there are ways to compensate for bad luck. As it stands there are no such ways in this system.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Virsalus

[titan_sLAyer_]

21 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Oh, but I agree. Ence why I said this:

Maybe you missunderstood me, and took the idea of "good things for good items in the same place as good things for "bad" items is the problem" literally? I meant to say the problem is the existence of said powerful mods, not that they are packed together.

I'm sorry I actually meant to quote the guy u first replied to ,mb!

[titan_sLAyer_]

21 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Oh, but I agree. Ence why I said this:

Maybe you missunderstood me, and took the idea of "good things for good items in the same place as good things for "bad" items is the problem" literally? I meant to say the problem is the existence of said powerful mods, not that they are packed together.

I'm sorry I actually meant to quote the guy u first replied to ,mb!

[titan_sLAyer_]

I have some ideas to fix the riven system

First of all cap all the +damage,+critical or +status to 150% at the most,

Secondly to maintain equality on trading the mod should turn into its veiled form by default for the same weapon,

Thirdly remove the increase in kuva for re rolling the mod and set it to a default rate to about 600 per roll,

Fourthly since DE already introduced Ayantan treasures ,make it in a way that trading 5 complete Ayantan statues will get u a riven mod

[Virsalus]

1 minute ago, titan_sLAyer_ said:

I have some ideas to fix the riven system

First of all cap all the +damage,+critical or +status to 150% at the most,

Secondly to maintain equality on trading the mod should turn into its veiled form by default for the same weapon,

Thirdly remove the increase in kuva for re rolling the mod and set it to a default rate to about 600 per roll,

Fourthly since DE already introduced Ayantan treasures ,make it in a way that trading 5 complete Ayantan statues will get u a riven mod

A universal cap would be unwise as it could not address the different values on different weapons. For example some weapons may need a lot more crit % increase to make up for their low base damage and crit chance to make them interesting. A universal cap would only make sense if weapons were balanced better in general but then we would not need this system in the first place...

[RacerDelux]

I like the idea of Riven Mods, but I agree that they were poorly executed. Here is an idea for how we can make the mods more unique and fun to play with.

----- Stats

Apart from being able to lock in stats, here are my thoughts:

1) Thinking of Terra here, lets have a main ability. This would be a UNIQUE ability. Examples:

     a) On enemy hit, that enemy is pushed away from the user

     b) Units hit by weapon are given a (cold,toxin,electric,fire) proc for x seconds (x being based on MR)

     c) On reload, send a blast of damage that knocks any enemy within a certain radius down (radius based on MR)

     d) Hitting an enemy has a % chance (MR based) to spawn an explosive that goes off after a few seconds dealing blast damage

     e) While actively holding the fire button down, any damage taken is redirected into extra damage, capped at a certain bonus modifier (MR based) and is reset once fire button is released.

     f) Using melee on an enemy (tapping e, primary still out) has a % chance to instantly reload your weapon (MR based %)

     g) The last hit enemy will have an aura that slows and attracts nearby enemies. Last for x seconds (MR based). Killing the unit unleashes a wave of damage based on health to nearby units. Can self damage, does not chain.

     h) When killing a unit, if no other unit is currently under your control, said unit gains full health and fights by your side until killed. Your weapon gains bonus elemental damage based on unit type.

I think you get the idea. Unique and fun abilities. Many of these could even make unused weapons fun to play with! Could even have some projectile type or weapon type specific modifications too.

----- MR Requirement

Above I mention multiple times that MR will affect some stats on the mod. With this in mind, remove MR requirements and let them scale with the users MR.

----- Secondary Stats

Along with the primary stat, just like Terra, have 3x sub stats. allow any of these stats to be negative, or positive. These stats will be the same as we currently have. Allow user to lock in said stat for (1,000 * number of locked stats) kuva.

----- Costs to Randomize

Randomizing stats costs (1,000 * number of locked stats) kuva, not exponential. Any locked stats are not touched.

----- Meta Vs None

I do not agree with "nerfing" stats for "meta" weapons. This is too hard to discern. How about this though, Assign a 'Power Rating' to each stat (fire rate, reload rate, damage, damage types, crit, status etc). These numbers added together give a rating to the weapon. After that, create a multiplier that applies to weapons that fall below a certain point. This would mean that a weapon which is MUCH worse than a Tonkor (Furris for example) will receive a large boost in bonuses that could help it be on par with the harder hitting weapons.

The multiplier is affectd by two items. The power rating for the stat in question (2% crit vs 50% crit) and the weapon's total power rating. This is to prevent already good and highly used weapons to get some silly multiplier on their only low stat.

I am open to thoughts on this suggestion.

Edited November 16, 2016 by RacerDelux

[Demon.King]

Just make every riven mod have fixed stats. If you get a riven mod with a specific name, it will always have the same stats.

I'm mostly fine about everything else, but this layer of RNG is completely unacceptable.

 

2 minutes ago, RacerDelux said:

----- MR Requirement

Above I mention multiple times that MR will affect some stats on the mod. With this in mind, remove MR requirements and let them scale with the users MR

Or at least this.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Demon.King

[Virsalus]

19 minutes ago, RacerDelux said:

----- Meta Vs None

I do not agree with "nerfing" stats for "meta" weapons. This is too hard to discern. How about this though, Assign a 'Power Rating' to each stat (fire rate, reload rate, damage, damage types, crit, status etc). These numbers added together give a rating to the weapon. After that, create a multiplier that applies to weapons that fall below a certain point (lets say Tonkor has a power rating of 2,000, and the penta has a power rating of 1,400 - if the rating multiplier cap is 1,800, the penta would only receive a modifier of 200 to its multiplier. Note these numbers are for explanation purposed only). This would mean that a weapon which is MUCH worse than a Tonkor (Furris for example) will receive a large boost in bonuses that could help it be on par with the harder hitting weapons. I am open to thoughts on this suggestion.

Why assign some arbitrary value when you could just use something practical like total damage or average DPS (just like on Warframe Builder, but maybe more accurate)?

Edited November 16, 2016 by Virsalus

[RacerDelux]

3 minutes ago, Virsalus said:

Why assign some arbitrary value when you could just use something practical like total damage or average DPS (just like on Warframe Builder)?

Hey, sorry I just finished refining that block, but to answer your question, a weapons DPS is NOT a good indicator of how good it is/its damage. Take Opticore for instance. It can have decent DPS, but since it is a burst weapon, if you miss one shot, your DPS goes to the floor (using above system, its high damage would be highly offset by the charge time and fire rate + mag capacity). There are other stats too that take into effect. Punch through for instance.

Edited November 16, 2016 by RacerDelux

[Virsalus]

1 minute ago, RacerDelux said:

Hey, sorry I just finished refining that block, but to answer your question, a weapons DPS is NOT a good indicator of how good it is/its damage. Take Opticore for instance. It can have decent DPS, but since it is a burst weapon, if you miss one shot, your DPS goes to the floor. There are other stats too that take into effect. Punch through for instance.

Then the optimal usage scenario has to be simulated or something to approximate the effective damage output. But again, just some arbitrary value won't do the trick.

[RacerDelux]

2 minutes ago, Virsalus said:

Then the optimal usage scenario has to be simulated or something to approximate the effective damage output. But again, just some arbitrary value won't do the trick.

Remember, the arbitrary number is used to affect the overall stat bonuses received by the weapon. Beyond that, the individual stats play a huge roll. While I understand what you are saying, DPS is not the only attribute you can look at (which is what I am trying to account for in my suggestion, please reread it, as I did modify it right before your first post). The other major component is weapon readiness (IE, how easy is it to aim, how large is the mag capacity, is it clunky to fire, how does it deal with multiple targets).

[PyroElleh]

I was thinking about this a little earlier... (And forgive me if someone else has brought this up.)

What if the bonus damage values of Riven mods were made to be additive to the base stats of the weapon, but were much smaller values.   So for example....  +15% base crit chance.  Or +20 base puncture.

That could fundamentally change the way a weapon works and how it can be modded, giving us real reasons to revisit old weapons and "be creative" with them.  And make some other changes similar to what other people have suggested already - like unique utility effects such as +fire rate on headshot, and important balancing changes to the algorithms.

Still means that weapons with already really good stats would get a boost.  But it would also give weapons that perform poorly a truly meaningful buff.  Multiplicative values don't do much for stats that are already pretty small.

 

[Luxpluff]

Whatever you do, please do add a more consistent way to obtain Riven mods. It's not fun to get the 5th Endo reward in a row from Sorties while people get their 4th Riven mod in a row.

[CorrinAvatan]

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

So, in short, the same arguments most eloquent people in here voiced? That is good, and I preemptively agree with most things you described.

Most.

Oddly, while I do agree that the amount of RNG is brutal in this things, I am not bothered with it as much as many people in here are.

That is, there are some facets of RNG in here that most people disagree with, while I personally don't:

If we ignore the downright stupid randomness of stats (giving way too big bonuses to some weapons and literally ineffective ones to others), I am not bothered by the fact the random assignment of the mod to a certain weapon. It's probably the only thing that does incite the player to try and use an unusual weapon... This falls flat once you take into account how poorly made the system is applied, though.

Agreed.

[Virsalus]

14 minutes ago, Luxpluff said:

Whatever you do, please do add a more consistent way to obtain Riven mods. It's not fun to get the 5th Endo reward in a row from Sorties while people get their 4th Riven mod in a row.

Quoting this to emphasize it. This is really important. Imagine a game like WoW or Diablo only letting you get one shot at loot a day, it would be insane. So is the current way of acquiring these mods in Warframe.

[Sar.K.Asmus]

@[DE]Rebecca I wonder what will happen if i get 15 riven mods? I will never get a riven mod as a reward again? And if this is the case why should i still play sorties (so far it's only for riven mods)?

[Cyanidekiller24]

Look I personally want to max my build for soma prime, tonkor, etc. and with the riven mods I can finally do that. please don't change the mods. They are fine as they are and soon everyone will have the mod that they want. Also it combines about 2-3 mods into one which in my opinion is very good because then you have room to put a mod that has a higher mod point cost on the weapon without any forma. I really  like the riven mods and it is a nice way to make some platinum too. DE has also made it possible to take weapons like the braton prime or tiberon and make them use-able at mid-high tier which I really like. With these new riven mods the weapons can scale better. This is just my opinion and I feel that we don't need a nerf. Maybe and increase in drop chance for them and (legendary cores) on sorties would be nice as well as it would give players a better chance to get them. Just my opinion. 

-Cyanidekiller24

[Cyanidekiller24]

On 11/14/2016 at 6:14 PM, immolator1001 said:

As a mastery rank 22 player who had taken a break for a couple months, these mods really reinvigorated my interest in Warframe and I'm really exited to get Riven mods for my favorite weapons that aren't quite top tier.

There are a few things I think should change:

1. Add a weekly mission with Teshin to get a Riven mod, so that it isn't totally Sortie RNG

2. Don't increase the cost of rerolling mods. The reason people want to reroll a mod is because it is a weapon they like and they want the mod to suit it better, this simply discourages players from rerolling mods for weaker weapons.

3. Add caps to stat changes, -100% on basically any stat can ruin a weapon, if it is damage the weapon basically ceases to work.

 

Like it so far and can't wait to see it evolve!

I totally agree.

[Fugana]

On 15.11.2016 г. at 5:47 AM, Chakravikari said:

So what about riven mods that give lower tier weapons usability again? Also nerfed into oblivion so people still stick with the current meta? looking at you simulards

Take them on sorties and we will talk again 

[BadxHero]

12 minutes ago, Cyanidekiller24 said:

Look I personally want to max my build for soma prime, tonkor, etc. and with the riven mods I can finally do that. please don't change the mods. They are fine as they are and soon everyone will have the mod that they want. Also it combines about 2-3 mods into one which in my opinion is very good because then you have room to put a mod that has a higher mod point cost on the weapon without any forma. I really  like the riven mods and it is a nice way to make some platinum too. DE has also made it possible to take weapons like the braton prime or tiberon and make them use-able at mid-high tier which I really like. With these new riven mods the weapons can scale better. This is just my opinion and I feel that we don't need a nerf. Maybe and increase in drop chance for them and (legendary cores) on sorties would be nice as well as it would give players a better chance to get them. Just my opinion. 

-Cyanidekiller24

Okay, that's all good and fine. But you do realize that doing that will just make the power creep int his game even HIGHER, right? Or do you simply hate nerfs/rebalances so much that you would rather that we have a broken system instead of a balanced one that actually JUSTIFIES the use of Riven Mods? I can understand your like for the system due to the the way that the mods themselves actually promote weapon versatility and player creativity, sure. But what I think you're missing is that the point of these forums isn't just to blindly say that this is good and it doesn't need changing, which is completely false, because the Riven Mod system in and of itself is very, very broken and poorly designed. To be frank, by encouraging this, not only are you not helping them improve their game, you are also giving them an excuse to put as little thought as possible as to the consequences broken things such as this. 

[Archonos23]

I think less RNG for the Riven Mods and its customization will be a good thing. It gives us players more freedom to truly 'craft' our own signature weapon. A weapon that we personally like and love.

PS: I really like the new relic system because in a way, it's a move away from RNG, it gives us players some control over it, albeit a little one. But it's still more control than what we have with the Riven mods. It's layers upon layers of RNG, and we need to be extremely lucky indeed to get a decent Riven mod for a weapon that we like. I don't mind trying new weapons, in fact I am in progress of making a Buzlok because I got the Riven for that weapon. But I know I also want a Riven for my Braton, which I really like. And one day, maybe, my Orthos and Dakra. But what if I tried doing the sortie everyday and just ended up with a mod for a weapon that I know I don't like? Like the Quanta for example, I don't like how it looks, and how it handles, so even if I got a really good Riven for it, I would maybe only try using it in one mission, and that's it