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[DE]Rebecca

[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 1!

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so if i understand this correctly once you are able to perform the impossible task assigned to the mods. You then can only use its revealed ability for a limited time. What?!. so you have to keep performing this redonculus task over and over again. Why is this a thing. Its almost worse then the continual remolding of existing weapons. ( considering regular weapon, prime weapon, syndicates and prisma's Its the same weapon.for pete sake) if you add the fact that you have to use another new resource to fuse it. Its just another way to you Pi$$ you off. I mean seriously the mod i got at the end of the quest says 4 head shots. in one Aim Glide as if its possible to get one.

 

Edited by Ookami_Nihonto

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1 minute ago, Ookami_Nihonto said:

so if i understand this correctly once you are able to perform the impossible task assigned to the mods. You then can only use its revealed ability for a limited time. What?!. so you have to keep performing this redonculus task over and over again. Why is this a thing. Its almost worse then the continual remolding of existing weapons. ( considering regular weapon, prime weapon, syndicates and prisma's Its the same weapon.for pete sake) if you add the fact that you have to use another new resource to fuse it. Its just another way to hold you Pi$$ you off. I mean seriously the mod i got at the end of the quest says $ head shots. in one Aim Glide as if its possible to get one.

 

You perform the task, it's unlocked for good.  You don't like the stats you can spend Kuva to reroll them but then you have to unlock it again.

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Ohno. All those poor sharks trying  to sell their soma rivens for 1000-6000plat are going to be so upset.  I'll make sure i make a big bowl of popcorn while i read tonight's tradechat. Already had fun lastnight so i know it will be even nore juicy now.

Edited by corporatePaladin
Spellcheck
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Here is the problem, you want it to improve "discarded" weapons.  But there are still mods for Soma, Simulor, and Tonkor.  THus the only ones really want push the Envelope further then try something that a player has used only for MR fodder and has to rebuild.

For example:  I did not have the Dera, or flux rifle built.  But i got a riven mod for them each.  I figure if i wanted to make them as powerful as possible, i needed to spend 5 or 6 forma, and a catalyst after building them. But then I got a Torid riven mod.  I already had one built with 5 forma, in it for my build, and just need one more forma to fit in the riven mod. 

It is obvious to see from the example which Riven mod i see more valuable and useful.

also players still need to see the MR of the Mod, and how many times it was cycled

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19 minutes ago, Molagstar_Molakath said:

 

WHY don't you just rework and rebalance the useless weapons instead? Why should i need a painfully farmed mod to use a weapon that should be usable since the beginning?

 

because it'd just create a new baseline for what's low and mid-tier, and nothing would be acomplished

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43 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

So existing OP Riven Mods are going to be nerfed? Oh, this is going to be delicious.

LMAO!! You said it best Bunny. Those that spent thousands of plat will be livid. It's their own fault and I can't help but find it funny. The lesson learned today is to not make rush decisions.

I had an idea that this might have been the idea behind the riven mods.

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I'm sure I am not the first person to suggest this, but I would like to see a sort of "spellbind" system akin to that from Tera used for rerolling stats on the mods. It gets expensive, fast, but it's probably one of the more viable options for what is otherwise a ridiculously massive rng time/money/resource sink. Lets say 100 kuva to keep one line of one stat, 200 for the next, 400 for the third (additive) so if you wanted to keep 3/4 stats or whatever, you'd be looking at 700 kuva plus whatever base reroll cost that would be fitting. Yes, this is a very expensive solution, but I do think it is a more realistic compromise. It keeps an element of RNG which is pretty much essential for an F2P game, but it offers another avenue to escape the brutal cost of pure gambling. Either way, I do like how these are intended to revitalize the "dead" guns in the game. I'm pretty eager to work on my rubico and grinlok.

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54 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Finished The War Within? If so, then you've received your first of a new class of Mod: Riven Mods!


Riven by nature stands for 'to split or tear apart violently' - which is an accurate summation of everyone's reactions to them! Cephalon Samodeus invites you to learn more about them and Mods in general here. For those of you who don’t know the specifics, Riven Mods have randomly generated stats (including MR requirement and polarities) for one randomly-selected weapon that are revealed once you complete a specific challenge.


Firstly, we should all understand our goal and why this goal existed in the first place:

We want to give players something unique to them that can speak to their wider Arsenal. We want to give new life to the Arsenal in a non-static way.

Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style. We’re all familiar with blazing through missions to the Extraction Point, but this system gives players new challenges that require them to test the creative limits of their Arsenal in their quest to Unveil their new Mods. Yes, meta weapons are in the selection pool, but Riven Mods are not needed to make this gear (like the Tonkor or Synoid Simulor) more powerful. What they can do is add an interesting buff to a comparatively underpowered weapon in order to encourage players to think outside of that meta box.

This is why we have prevented players from choosing what weapon the Riven Mod will be for; if we didn’t, we would end up with millions of Soma Mods and none for the Gorgon. The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’. For those of you who want to find the best Mod possible, that avenue is available to you, but that is not the goal behind this system.

We have started to add quirks to weapons, as shown with the recent Syndicate Melees, and this is supposed to be a continuation of that train of thought: we want players to be able to use their weapons in new ways that typical builds don’t encourage or allow. The current maximum number of 15 Riven Mods is a reflection of this, as limitations encourages creativity and choice.


Secondly, this system will be slow to roll out and include iteration.

Perhaps you've noticed only Rifle Mods exist in the Riven tier at this time - this is no accident.

We want to hear what our community thinks, which is the reason why we only implemented these for Rifles. Perhaps there are tweaks to this system that can make these Mods more unique and interesting beyond randomized stats so that our intentions are clearer. This mechanic is something that hasn’t existed in Warframe before, and we want to be careful in making sure it doesn’t undermine our ultimate goals for the game.

We took a risk (Warframe wouldn't be here without risks), and the insight our fans offer us is so incredibly valuable as we work to make Riven Mods, and Warframe, better. As Developers, we want to emphasize: nothing is set in stone. Warframe is known to be always changing and adapting. Remember that groups work best together when respect is shown, so while we can and do look past a lot of vitriol to find what you think, it's better that you express your thought without it.


Lastly, what is the immediate iteration you can expect?

In the past 3 or so days since The War Within has been released, our community brought up some very pertinent points concerning this system. The first is trading, and the lack of UI indication of how many times a Mod has been Cycled and the Weapon it is for, which will soon be added to both Veiled (after the initial Unveiling) and Unveiled Mods. For example, a Cycled Lanka mod will appear as Lanka Riven Mod until it is unveiled again.

Your commentary about meta weapons has been taken to heart as well, and we will be tweaking the algorithm to account for 'Riven Disposition'.

'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.

This modification will also affect existing Riven Mods to reflect our desire to give new life to ‘discarded’ weapons in a unique way, and not increase the power of the top tier ones. Prepare to see a difference in stats of existing Riven Mods in an upcoming hotfix. Warframe content will not be balanced around Riven Mods, but Riven Mods will be balanced within their own ecosystem. We wanted this system to allow players to experiment with their Arsenal in existing end-game missions. It's not our intention to add content where these Mods will be necessary - it brings new ways of experiencing the existing game.

These are just some immediate changes we will be making, but we will be taking the rest of your feedback into consideration as we further develop this system.


Thank you for taking the time to read this post. The Riven system will go and change, and for those who choose to use it, this is a post that covers what you can expect!

 

Thank you.

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Even though I'm worried that we won't be able to lock in properties for the next roll for a higher cost, I'm more worried about how this is going to factor into damage 3.0

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1 minute ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

because it'd just create a new baseline for what's low and mid-tier, and nothing would be acomplished

Yeah but if the dps difference isnt like 15k dps between low-tier and high-tier it would be better.
For example i got a nice riven mod for the hind ...
but its max dps output is around 10k dps...

I got like 80% multishot and 100% damage, but with that i wont get above 15k

IMO should riven mods be stronger on weaker weapons!
I think they are ok for good weapons, but the need to scale up when the weapon is low.

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16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Cephalon Samodeus

... Who?

 

16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Firstly, we should all understand our goal and why this goal existed in the first place:

Now this is the kind of stuff I really really wish we heard more often.

-----

16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We want to give new life to the Arsenal in a non-static way.

No such thing. Mods are, by nature, static. They're a preparation puzzle.
Once you've ironed out a build, you're done.
At most, you've gone through a couple of setup-iterations.

That said, the unveiling challenges do switch things up quite nicely.

------

16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style.
.....
The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’. For those of you who want to find the best Mod possible, that avenue is available to you, but that is not the goal behind this system.

Using mods to band aid revisit out-powercreeped weapons is a fine idea, but this just doesn't work.
The reason most weapons are abandoned is that they can't keep up (with Sortie level content, for the purposes of this discussion), statwise.
When the only thing they offer is straight stats, giving me anything that isn't 'damage and' won't cut it.

For example, I'd love to use my Glaxion more. I've got, I think 5 forma on it. But the rate of fire utterly murders the weapon if you're at all planning on killing stuff with it.
-----
Compare and contrast with the Syndicate weapon augments. The blandest of them add 'damage and' the Proc effect, and even then you still rarely see anyone running around with a Skana, Mire, etc.
The ones that see use either bump up good weapons to even better *cough all the Steel Meridian augments cough*, or give bad weapons something new, as with Winds of Purity or all the Suda augments (though most of them don't see use anymore either).

As to weapons abandoned for mechanical reasons, such as the Mutalist Quanta, Paracyst, Miter, Ballistica, etc. - these mods do absolutely nothing about that.
-----
 

16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

What they can do is add an interesting buff to a comparatively underpowered weapon in order to encourage players to think outside of that meta box.
.....
We have started to add quirks to weapons, as shown with the recent Syndicate Melees, and this is supposed to be a continuation of that train of thought: we want players to be able to use their weapons in new ways that typical builds don’t encourage or allow.

I like the trend of differentiation via quirks instead of vertical power, but again - it doesn't work in this format.

With a handful of exceptions, bonuses from mods are percentile.
If a weapon has the stats to support a damage/crit/status build, the tools we already have suffice.
But giving me +300% crit chance/damage on my Miter, or +300% status on a Braton (5% base) makes effectively no difference.

I got a mod that gives me punchthrough, zoom and increased damage vs. Corpus and -100%ish crit chance on my Gorgon, another that gives +% max ammo and reload speed to the Synapse. How does this make them play differently?

And as long as these mods remain a percent of the base stat, "sane" values (read: around the values of existing mods, and the sanity of some of those is - at best - suspect) of straight stats will never change how a weapon plays.
At best, you'll get a combo of some mods you already use, which will let you stack up or replace something for more damage (assuming non-meta weapon).

I mean, give me a weapon that grants a flat +50% status to... idk, the Ignis? The Panthera? The Hind, Ogris, Rubico (just to name a few)? Suddenly those weapons play completely different (well, except the Rubico).

Give me a mod that grants a flat +% crit... actually, nevermind that.

Give me a +% flight speed, 'explodes on return' and -#bounces Glaive P mod, I'd be ecstatic... because I could replace 3 mods with 1, meaning I might actually be able to do some damage with it.
And then I'd realize that all you did was bandaid the problem with a mod instead of addressing the root issue. Again.
And I'd be pissed. Again.

Sigh.

-----

16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

As Developers, we want to emphasize: nothing is set in stone. Warframe is known to be always changing and adapting.

This sounds good. But, respectfully, it's primarily PR.
The fact that some parts are always changing doesn't mean that the specific part that's not-quite-breaking the game is.

And even if it's "on the list", your "getting around to it"s keep getting slower as you add and add more systems.
At this point I could reel off a laundry list of things, but I'll just pull 2 examples off the top of my head - and which are always in the pre-Devstream list of questions for this exact reason: Glaives. Stealth kill animations.

-----

16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Lastly, what is the immediate iteration you can expect?

I'm glad to hear that some of the constructive feedback's being implemented.

But:

16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

t's not our intention to add content where these Mods will be necessary - it brings new ways of experiencing the existing game.

While I'm glad to hear it said expressly, I hope you'll pardon my not finding this at all reassuring.

Because, if Warframe has a motto (as expressed on the Dev Streams, at least), it's 'never say never'.
Things that have been NWIH'ed have a habit of appearing ingame eventually anyway, and I'm not looking forward to the day this becomes one of them.

-----
-----

Once again, thank you for communicating.
It is heartening, and ideally, enlightening.

Edited by Chroia
Percentile, not multiplicative.
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Please make them more available too, possibly a rare Kuva Fortress spy reward or exterminate cache drop would be nice.

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58 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

we want to be careful in making sure it doesn’t undermine our ultimate goals for the game.

How can mandatory mods, and damage 2.0, ever be fixed whit the existence of riven mods?

If the plan was to remove/nerf mandatory mods, how can that happen when some of these mods, are alone a serration+multishot+crit etc.

 

DE! You clearly don't plan ahead; or, you came up with riven mods, as a band-aid to escape ever fixing such issues.

 

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I don't understand why people like to rag on Metas for being OP. It's not our fault, we were born OP, y'know?

//end joke

 

I think it's an interesting idea to introduce a new system to revitalize less-used weapons and then make it balanced within its own ecosystem, indeed, but what happens if down the road the DEv team, or the pertinent parts of it, decide to revisit and show love to some of the more niche and left behind weapons/types? Will the Riven algorithm have to be tweaked on a weapon-by-weapon basis, or would one gun getting a power up throw the entire system into disarray?

Thoughts for the future.

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58 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

For those of you who want to find the best Mod possible, that avenue is available to you, but that is not the goal behind this system.

You can't just "not make it the goal behind it" just like capping make it automatically the objective to reach for everyone. Pour stat/weapon riven mod will just be discarded asap by every player once they find something better and it will never make "bad" weapons "good" because "good" weapons still have the same edge over less favored ones.

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.

That could indeed help, we'll see...

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Okay, but why does this all have to be done through OP, hard to get, RNG mods, when you could just buff and balance the old weapons instead?  Why does it have to be on this one mod that will potentially have the power of five, thus creating a mandatory mod for the weapon when Damage 3.0 was/is supposed to be all about smashing the mandatory mod problem?  Why behind so many layers of RNG (get mod from sortie, get kuva mini-game to spawn, get lucky with actually worthwhile to use stat rolls)?

I was pretty happy with the Prisma/Vandal/etc. precedent, of stronger variations of existing old weapons to give them interesting builds to play around with.  I really feel like we could have just stuck with that instead (with the PvP guys helping the PvE guys even out the balance issues between weapons - they seem to have done a decent job so far).  At least with this, you knew what someone was building for by the look/name of the weapon in their hands, not having it hidden behind a mod.

My experience with this system so far was that I got a mod for Ignis, a weapon that I use commonly (yay!) but every single roll for it was garbage, and garbage, and garbage.  And now I have a mod I would never use, nobody would ever buy, and can't afford to reroll.  Nothing about this system has been enjoyable for me.  It reminds me of Diablo 3 and Borderlands, and I hated this exact same mechanic in those games too.

I would really, really appreciate it if you guys just scrapped this idea.  I'm being 100% serious.  I can not imagine this mandatory mod being tweaked in a way that I can be satisfied with, especially after the promises of Damage 3.0.  You could remove all the RNG, let me make all custom super OP mods tomorrow, and I would still feel unsatisfied.

Edited by ArcusVeles
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I actually like the idea behind Riven mods. Your design goals were apparent to me from the get-go, and I think they are admirable.  I'm building a new Flux Rifle, that I probably never would have tried had I not gotten a Riven mod for it.  I love completing the challenges.  Before extending the system to other weapon types however, there are some things that I feel definitely need to be improved before Riven mods will be in a state I am truly happy with.

1) Remove Sentinel weapons from the pool.  Thankfully, I did not get one, but a lot of other people have, and it just feels really bad.  I use a Kavat, and I love it, so if I had gotten a Riven mod for a Sentinel weapon I would have been upset.  We do not even wield the weapon ourselves, so it just feels like it would have no impact.

2) The stat generation algorithm should either be more contextual, or more weapon agnostic.  It should not roll for stats that are useless for the weapon (like +IPS on an elemental gun).  Alternatively, rather than having all the stats scale as a percentage, perhaps consider making some of them an additive base increase.  +100% crit chance for Flux Rifle does not excite me, or change my view on the weapon; it only has 5% base, so increasing that to 10% is negligible.  If it added +20% base crit chance however, that would fundamentally change how I mod the gun.  It also would probably make things more balanced, as +20% flat crit chance would be great for the Flux Rifle, but not so much for the Dread (still pretty good, just not completely crazy)

3) Remove, or significantly lower, the scaling Kuva cost.  As it is, the cost gets way too punishing way too quick.  This is related to my next point:

4) Give us a way to affect the outcome, at an increased Kuva cost.  My proposal is to have a tiered cost structure: a player could re-roll all the mod's attributes (including possibly the weapon type) for a relatively cheap amount.  If they are happy with one or more of the rolls they got, they could "lock" one or more attributes that would persist when re-rolling.  In exchange, the roll would cost significantly more Kuva, scaling to the number of attributes locked.  (for example, to re-roll everything would be 1000 Kuva, to lock one attribute and re-roll would be 2000, locking 2 would be 4000, etc.  Values subject to tweaking of course, but hopefully it illustrates the idea)  By increasing the Kuva cost when locking attributes, it avoids punishing people with terrible luck, while still preventing all but the most dedicated from continually re-rolling to get the perfect stats.  Of course, every re-roll would still need a new challenge completed.

5) Limit or remove the range of values for a prefix, and tie the negative stats into the prefix structure.  The variance of this system is already extremely high, between obtaining a Riven mod at all, rolling the weapon, and rolling for 2-3 positive modifiers with a bunch of possibilities, and a possible negative.  We should not also need to worry about getting +90% crit versus +150%. It does not add any value to the system in my opinion.  One of the beauties of Warframe until now was the clear upper power level, and consistent stats across mods; every Split Chamber is just like every other.  I like the idea of the randomized grouping of modifiers, but if two people have Riven mods for the same weapon with the same modifiers, the values should also be the same.  Tying negative modifiers to the prefixes allows the variance to be kept high (you could have several prefixes with the same bonus but different negatives) while removing the variance within a prefix makes the system as a whole more sensible and less frustrating (and maybe easier to balance).

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I like the idea behind this mods, they are fun to unlock(most of the time) and unpredictable effect makes them more "personal".

However re-roll cost should be lowered. I think so because some weapons need only specific stats. For example my riven mod was for flux rifle which gave 3.4punch through(NICE),+77% zoom(useless on short/limited range weapon) and -48% status(horrible for status weapon). Obviously I had to re-roll and on second attempt I got +crit chance,+zoom, +crit dmg problem is that with 5% crit chance this is once again useless. On third attempt i was lucky by getting +multi-shot chance and + status chance which is great for status and high fire rate/continious weapon. As you see I spent 1,800 kuva only ot get a viable mod.But I agree with your point of making players to experiment so maybe remove some unusable effect such as zoom from flux rifle.

I would love to see more of this for secondary,melee and warframes, this would give more diversity and unique builds which we wanted for a while now. This might be even a start for dmg 3.0 =)

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Your commentary about meta weapons has been taken to heart as well, and we will be tweaking the algorithm to account for 'Riven Disposition'.

No mention of fixing riven mods that have stats impossible for the weapon they are for.  Such as zoom on sentinel mods (or just, you know, exclude sentinel weapons) and IPS damage added to elemental weapons.  There are a few more combos as well that shouldn't exist. see below

 

Edited by Xekrin
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If you're going to add actual random stat items, you'd better look at games who have learned how to not screw it up. (PoE, Diablo3 post-patch)

 

Or, weird idea I know, just don't add the random stat items.

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Does this mean a weapon specialization system similar to focus is dead?

I know part of the business equation to make the Riven system viable is "How does DE make money and retain/gain players with this system?"

Just remember the flip question:

"How can this system lose us money and players?"

Looking forward to TWW!

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30 minutes ago, ZiG.y said:

A potential fix: Grandfather every riven mod currently unveiled and make them untradeable unless you reroll them; which would use the new system.  A little extra work for everyone who wants to trade but it will at least make those who spend platinum happy.

This is a good idea! It would mean we don't lose our mods, but encourage opting in to the new system. I like it.

Overall, I'm really hoping these turn in to a big buff for underperforming weapons. Give me a good reason to use the paracyst, please?

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I posted this is another thread, so this is just a copy paste:

Quote

 

I like the idea of them, it just needs some fixing/tuning.

- "secondary" reroll system where you can reroll 1 single stat, but other stats get locked and cannot be single rolled, only the stat can be rerolled that is in "slot" you rerolled previously. Reroll all should still stay as a option. D3 stat rerolling is basically what I mean.

- Completely useless stats should not happen. For example: max ammo for sentinel weapons, crit stats for weapon that cannot crit etc.

- ^Better yet, remove sentinel weapons from the possible weapons.

- Add a way to have some control over what weapon the mod will be for. For example; unveil it while it's in a bow, the mod will be for one of the bows, unveil while it's on a sniper, it will be for one of the snipers. etc. It would still be random, but you have at least some control.

- If not the above (control over weapon type), then at least add more ways to get them. I've been only getting endo from sorties, but when and if I ever get the mod I will be mad if it's another sentinel weapon mod.

 

 

Edited by Vilmu
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