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[DE]Rebecca

[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 1!

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Or how about you just give underused weapons a goddam stat boost/alt fire modes/unique properies or a way to +n the weapon like so many other games have to make the appeal to players instead of trying to be a S#&$ty release Diablo 3?

We have started to add quirks to weapons, as shown with the recent Syndicate Melees, and this is supposed to be a continuation of that train of thought: we want players to be able to use their weapons in new ways that typical builds don’t encourage or allow. The current maximum number of 15 Riven Mods is a reflection of this, as limitations encourages creativity and choice.

 

So why not continue that train of thought?  The only thing these mods add is to turn already needed stats up to 11. If a crit weapon gets a Riven that doesnt roll flat damage or crit stats it gets re-rolled. This does NOTHING to make the weapon more interesting. It just makes it spit out bigger numbers. Larger explosion size is more interesting, shooting allies to heal them is interesting, bouncing shots is interesting, flashbang bullets are interesting. There is NOTHING here but bigger numbers.

 

This is why we have prevented players from choosing what weapon the Riven Mod will be for; if we didn’t, we would end up with millions of Soma Mods and none for the Gorgon.

 

Well maybe that's because the base Gorgon is SO MUCH WORSE than the Soma no one wants to use it? How about you up the Gorgon base damage or status chance, or have a larger magazine, or give it a combo meter instead of a stupid bandaid mod where a Riven Soma is STILL more powerful than a Riven Gorgon?

 

We took a risk (Warframe wouldn't be here without risks), and the insight our fans offer us is so incredibly valuable as we work to make Riven Mods, and Warframe, better. 

 

Risk taking my &#!. This risk taking is you running across the street when it says STOP instead of waiting for it to change to WALK. Its completely unnecessary and not only fails to address a failing of a very basic part of the game, it makes another problem.

As Developers, we want to emphasize: nothing is set in stone. Warframe is known to be always changing and adapting. 

Nothing is set in stone? You tell that to the people who have dropped hundreds to thousands of plat on perfect rolls of these mods. You take these mods away or make changes to these mods and you piss of these people who are probably very heavy spenders in Warframe. Tell me. Exactly how do you plan to do this without pissing off this group of people? I'm seriously interested. 

Remember that groups work best together when respect is shown, so while we can and do look past a lot of vitriol to find what you think, it's better that you express your thought without it.

You get will only get as much respect as your team showed to the player base during the Vivergate and Vacuum fiasco. The vast majority of your playerbase gave you feedback they felt very strongly about and you claimed to listen to it while twisting it into something else entirely (how in the world do you get 3m sentinel only vacuum from universal 12m passive vacuum on warframes) which you pass it off as something we wanted all along.

Your commentary about meta weapons has been taken to heart as well, and we will be tweaking the algorithm to account for 'Riven Disposition'. 'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.

So instead of adjusting the base weapon or providing a way to upgrade the stats of the base weapon like any sensible developer will do, you choose up instead devote time to adjusting yet another system on a per weapon basis that is supposed to address the first problem? Please tell me you are joking. There are enough issues with Warframe that need to be addressed first before you add on yet another system.

 Warframe content will not be balanced around Riven Mods, but Riven Mods will be balanced within their own ecosystem. We wanted this system to allow players to experiment with their Arsenal in existing end-game missions. It's not our intention to add content where these Mods will be necessary - it brings new ways of experiencing the existing game.

So rebalance the stats of old weapons to be equally good instead of introducing a needlessly grindy and complex system and is reliant on the new gimmicky, unfun, and punishing operator system.

Lastly, there already is precedent this type of unintelligent RNG system is S#&$. Did none of you play Diablo 3 when it was first released? It was S#&$ and the only players who benefited were the incredibly lucky, the merchants, and the incredibly rich. Why make more work for yourself? You cant even handle CHANNELING or FOCUS or ARCHWING. Systems which have sat stagnant and unfun and UNFINISHED FOR MONTHS TO YEARS.

Edited by ADirtyMonk
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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.

Is this based on the individual player's stats? If so this is concerning for those that use less meta weapons for fun. The reason I don't use a weapon like Convetrix isn't that the weapon is bad (it is so-so if I remember correctly), it is because I just don't like using it. And let's say I use Panthera all of the time for funzies, I may never be able to take Panthera to a higher level mission because I won't ever get a Riven mod that gives it the necessary boost. If I get a Riven mod for Convetrix, I may use it once or twice to test out the mod but at the end of the day I don't enjoy the weapon and will probably not use it.

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3 minutes ago, Azrael said:

 

Speak for yourselves, I would love a vulklok riven mod. Or a sweeper prime riven mod. Ooh, how about a deconstructor riven mod?! I'll just roll it until I get a nice status chance stat. I would use it all the time, even if it takes 8 forma to fit it.

Sweeper Prime is a shotgun and Deconstructor is not a rifle. Only Vulklok and Laser Rifle are eligible. After the Vulklok nerf, more people would be frustrated just getting a sentinel weapon Riven.

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Ill start by saying that I appreciate the sentiment behind these mods.  While these riven mods have caused some to try "non-meta" weapons I have to say that I think was poorly done.  The reason weapons are "non-meta" is because they cannot keep up with the damage requirements due to enemy scaling.  Meaning that any non-meta weapon would likely require a riven mod with good rolls on increasing its raw damage or status capabilities, which would be rare.  This actually does not lead to diversity because of how the mod applies bonuses, +crit on a weapon with no crit is still 0 crit.  A riven mod would need to increase what the weapon is already good at doing, and what it is likely already modded for. 

Upon thinking on it, I personally think it would be better to do one of two things with rivens.  Tone down the raw numbers on the mods, but have them apply additively to the base before other mods.  This will effectively allow for different modding of weapons in that a weapon that had 0 crit before now has a base that can be upgraded due to a riven mod, one that had no puncture damage now has a base that increases with mods and effects elemental damages, etc.  This can lead to crit builds on weapons that traditionally could not utilize them, allow for status builds on weapons which formerly could not, or simply vastly improve reload on weapon with long reload.  The second suggestion would be to remove all traditional bonuses but have them be something like shots fired from this have a % chance to cause an implosion which drags enemies into a pile, this weapon now is burst fire, etc.  Basically just some effect that can make for some funny and interesting gameplay. 

Next I would like to say that I appreciate the move to show a riven has been re-rolled vs a new one, that was sorely needed. 

I disagree with the reasoning in the rising kuva price to re-roll.  By the time most can even equip these mods, I would assume they would know what stats would be good on that weapon.  Additionally there are circumstances where the rolled stats are meaningless for the weapon.  Hopefully the bias mentioned will address this. 

On being able to choose the weapon.  I personally have leveled all my weapons by using them, I know which "feel good in hand"  to me and which do not.  No riven mod in their current state will change this as the primary reasoning is in the weapon's mechanics.  I would like to choose the weapon. 

Lastly these mods are placed behind some pretty harsh RNG.  Other games that have randomized items like this tend towards a chance for them to drop from literally anything, albeit a low chance.  As an example the legendaries in Diablo 3 can drop from anywhere, and late game rift runs can get semi-randomized legendaries dropping fairly frequently. (they are forced to be around 90% rolled for your class and its attributes) Additionally there is the capability to re-roll one stat on the item, allowing for an almost perfect item to be made better.  The difference here is instead of multiple chances on every run, no matter how small the chance; we have one lever pull a day.  I feel obliged to point out, however, that I have stuck with Warframe and have stopped playing Diablo 3.  If they are however changed similarly to how I have mentioned above, I think I could accept that level of randomness in acquisition. 

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3 minutes ago, HyokaChan said:

Sweeper Prime is a shotgun and Deconstructor is not a rifle. Only Vulklok and Laser Rifle are eligible. After the Vulklok nerf, more people would be frustrated just getting a sentinel weapon Riven.

They said they may extend the system to other weapon classes, and they only restricted it so they could evaluate the system. And Vulklok is amazing, I genuinely don't know why more people don't use it. Sure, it was nerfed, but so what? Just because it used to be better, doesn't mean it's garbage now.

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13 minutes ago, Azrael said:

 

Speak for yourselves, I would love a vulklok riven mod. Or a sweeper prime riven mod. Ooh, how about a deconstructor riven mod?! I'll just roll it until I get a nice status chance stat. I would use it all the time, even if it takes 8 forma to fit it.

Spoiler

e1nTqWZ.jpg

Will trade for Grakata, Zarr or Latron one ;) Have rerolled that 3 times I think, so the reroll cost is still quite low.

 

Edited by Vilmu

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Romulus93 said:

If DE didn't make trash weapons then we wouldn't need a whole system to make them useful. Riven mods seem like a band-aid solution to the actual problem that DE makes some weapons obviously weaker than others. It's the power creep problem that has been building over time. Do away with Riven mods and look at how and what DE releases in general. I see this as unnecessary system clutter. My friends, as new players, are already confused as hell with what there is. 

Riven needs to go and a look at damage, enemy scaling, enemy difficulty, and weapon stats/enhancement, needs to be addressed to fix the meta and unused weapon issue.

what a "creative" idea you have smh 

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Don't increase the cost of rerolling mods. At least not in a dramatic curve like is right now.

"The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’"
Okay, two times in a row I got a Paris mod with - Puncture Damage. As a Puncture weapon, this is not a new stategy. This is a mod that removes the source of damage of my weapon. After 5 rerolls, my mod is not a total garbage, but is usable. 

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you know, even though that the system may be unbalanced and flawed with how RNG based it is, i'm really glad you guys took the risk honestly. We gotta keep moving somewhere with the game, and If anything, it really does incentivize me to use older weapons and gave me much more room on builds. However getting to the creativity aspect is still a huge stroke of luck in this sytem

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1 hour ago, Shifted said:

Well, this is not my preferred way of "reviving" the "old" weapons, but I guess it has to suffice.

Now the question is, does that mean Damage \ Mods 3.0 is dead and will not be reworked, or what?

i think it's still coming, we're just going to possibly have one arguably highly recommended mod instead of 3-4 mandatory mods

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While the riven mods are nice in that it could make some mediocre weapons be usable in later stages of the game (not endgame, but it's usable at least?), it is also disheartening in that it also seems to have released for other primary types like the Tonkor, Dread, or Soma (series). 

At first it was nice, but then realization kind of hit and made me realize this feels kind of power creep-ish. 

Well, it's all an experience to try out though, so I guess it's interesting and fun while is lasts.

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Third time rerolling my Cernos mod. Second time I've gotten IPS damage bonus that isn't Impact. And even if it WAS Impact, I probably still wouldn't use it because IPS mods just aren't that great.

 

This whole system has been unsatisfying. For one thing, you have IPS stats showing up on the mods, when with the exception of some very, VERY specific builds, are not useable. You have effects showing up that are outright useless, like Magazine Capacity on Bows, and IPS on Elemental weapons, and suboptimal effects like crit on non-crit weapons. I got Latron, Tiberus, and Cernos mods. I don't mind those weapons, but they're all subpar, and the effects I've gotten even after rerolling are varying shades of terrible.

 

This whole system should not have come out until after "Damage 3.0" when you removed mandatory mods. You've only created MORE power creep with this system. And due to the sheer amount of RNG involved (RNG to get from a Sortie, RNG for the challenge, RNG for the number of effects, RNG for the % of the effects, RNG for which gun it's for, RNG to reroll if it's not a good mod), IT. IS. NOT. FUN! I understand the nature of this game is RNG, but Gods, this is the most toxic form of RNG I have ever seen.

 

I'm done with these Riven mods until such a time as they are worth going after. I'm done rerolling. I'm done collecting them. I'm done with the nonsense challenges (Auto failing a "don't get detected" challenge because Kuva Guardians spawned or because the Stalker seeing me counts as being detected). Just done. Sorry DE, but copying WoW and D3's system of RNG was NOT a smart move. Usually I support you... but not in this.

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I think it'd be neato if they included non stat things more. A syndicate-weapon like thing would be cool, where you have to actively do something to trigger an effect.

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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.

This modification will also affect existing Riven Mods to reflect our desire to give new life to ‘discarded’ weapons in a unique way, and not increase the power of the top tier ones. Prepare to see a difference in stats of existing Riven Mods in an upcoming hotfix.

This is why I spend hundreds for this game without any single hesitation.

Bravo. Impressive. Always with you.

Keep up the good work.

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tbh i like the idea of the riven mods but for some already good weapon this make them being more n more used than before like Simulor or tonkor . at least just make this for underpower weapon only so we can pick our favorite gear as we want

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Overall the Riven System has way to much RNG attached to it. It currently is RNG^3. First we need to be lucky to get one as random reward from the Sortie, than we need to get lucky to get it for a weapon we want, than we need to get lucky to get usable statts from it that fits our weapons. This is a bit to much randomness.

 

I get the point for not letting players choose the weapon, but lets be honest, there are alot of weapons that count as rifles for mods (~50 or more?) so the chance of getting something specific is realy tiny. I dont think that we will see a sudden raise in less used weapons just because there are riven mods out there, the chance to get it for any weapon is tiny and i guess there are ppl out there who even hope for a Gorgon Mod but have bad luck. It is also not a fix for weapons being less used, as some of them are less used for a reason, bad mechanics or simply crappy statts dont get fixed just because we suddenly can get OP mods.

 

The thing about reroling cost is pointless. You want players to try the stats, but this requires stats to be actually inteligent and usefull. I dont need to try Mods that give weapon recoil on weapons that dont have recoil. I also dont need to try mods with -50% or -80% max ammo or mods with slash/impact/puncture damage for weapons that have nearly or no damage of that type at all. Also players search for mod combinations that actually fit their modded weapon.

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For players like me seeing Warframe evolution since its launch, it's amazing to see this kind of mod been added to Warframe, but still I think it will end up being useless, players will always pick up the most OP weapons, let's say someone got a Riven mod that allows one of the oldest in-game weapons to be OP (at the level or better than Tigris, Synoid Simulor, Tonkor, etc.), eventually players will find out about it, and they will go towards that weapon and towards that build.. now lets say that this new future OP weapon is not MR locked like Tigris prime and Synoid Simulor and the Riven mods they got are lower MR (exemple MR5-8), there will be even more people using the newest OP weapon than there is players using Tigris and others and thus making it useless again.

In anyway, If there is a way of bypassing this problem then yes, it's a good and new way of using older weapons, and I loved that.

Note: Apologies for any grammar error.

Edited by Eminem37
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I'm sure you are all aware of the primary complaints (RNG gambling mechanics, risk of trading etc) but I really feel that you need to stop trading now while these changes are being settled on. If you don't there are going to be a lot of angry people who dropped a crazy amount of plat on a mod that stops being what they paid for in two days.

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I think its unfair to change the stats,people have spent lots of plat on specific mods for their specific stats.Its like buying an orange,coming home and it miraculously turning into a pear.I hope my 600p spent on my sybaris mod wasnt wasted

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

The current maximum number of 15 Riven Mods is a reflection of this, as limitations encourages creativity and choice.

Thats like saying giving an artist one crayon will make his art more creative.

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The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’. For those of you who want to find the best Mod possible, that avenue is available to you, but that is not the goal behind this system.

@[DE]Rebecca - I understand reason behind it but the problem it's all RNG - one player can run 100 times and get nothing, one player will run once and get most glorious mod ever. Increasing Kuva cost further prevents people from trying perfect roll journey. 

This is how you loose 2 players, first one will quit as it's no longer playable for him, second one might quit soon as he just won the game and reached end of end game when it comes to mods.

By giving too much RNG into the game you have potential of loosing players who will especially unlucky, no matter how great game is - that's really bad in my opinion


MY IDEA:

Blizzard's Hearthstone is suffering from RNG (it might be fun to watch but not to play it), Blizzard created "acceptable RNG" with "Discover" mechanic (ie. player is presented with 3 cards to choose from). It's RNG that user has influence, power of control of.

Why not offer something similar? For example, split challenges into 3 smaller tasks (instead of one combo-wombo),
Each task will unlock 1 power within the mod, after each mission with completed task, user is presented with 3 options to choose from to add to the mod. (first time would also be presented with weapon choice).
Polarity could be random, drain could be base with each of above 4 choices (3 powers + 1 weapon choice) influence (add/subtract) from base drain

Using Kuva to "clear" existing effect (and requiring another challenge to unlock it again with another 3, different, random choices to select from).

 

This way you keep your existing system, you keep it fairly random, you make players able to embark on perfect roll, you potentially even keep Kuva increase cost and you give, within reason, power to players to build the mod instead of given random roulette 

 

Personally, I don't like this because I am usually unlucky to chance games, I felt discouraged from trying Riven Mods even before starting :( 
and the first one was rather medicore, so no "wow" effect there

Edited by SHADOW.XIII
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4 hours ago, immolator1001 said:

As a mastery rank 22 player who had taken a break for a couple months, these mods really reinvigorated my interest in Warframe and I'm really exited to get Riven mods for my favorite weapons that aren't quite top tier.

There are a few things I think should change:

1. Add a weekly mission with Teshin to get a Riven mod, so that it isn't totally Sortie RNG

2. Don't increase the cost of rerolling mods. The reason people want to reroll a mod is because it is a weapon they like and they want the mod to suit it better, this simply discourages players from rerolling mods for weaker weapons.

3. Add caps to stat changes, -100% on basically any stat can ruin a weapon, if it is damage the weapon basically ceases to work.

 

Like it so far and can't wait to see it evolve!

Please listen to this man he basically nailed every complaint I have.

 

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So what about riven mods that give lower tier weapons usability again? Also nerfed into oblivion so people still stick with the current meta? looking at you simulards

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