New Stealth Mechanics IS Impossible

[Zappli]

YAY..... The New TWW Update is here implemented new stealth mechanics. Enemies can now detect bodies in missions enemies always spawn in clumps. OH and enemies can detect bodies through walls. like stealth was not hard enough. And the mastery test 9, The stealth test. Congrats now my friends who are new players cannot even make it past that test. you guys got to change it back. it is just unfair now normal stealth runs are just literally exclusive to two stealth Warframes that is Loki and Ash. DE, you have to do something about this. I am not speaking for myself but for the entire player base and community. And all the new players out there.

Edited November 16, 2016 by E-ZAPP

[Zachles]

Holy cow, are they for real? Wow, I'm glad I did the MR 19 test before TWW.

I can kind of see why they would do this, but that just makes it impossible...

[Exkin]

I've done my MR 19 test after completing TWW quest, no problem for me.

[[DE]Saske]

If enemies can detected dead bodies through walls this would be a bug, it should only be in line of sight.

But you can not argue that if two enemies stand right next to each other and one gets killed the other should not be alerted.

[Zappli]

I was referring to rank 9 test for my newer friends who are really having a difficult time. and for normal stealth runs just made it way harder for non stealth frames.

[xFrostKnightx]

Telesto - Saturn

I did a couple runs to see how it would go with "true" stealth without cheesing it with Ivara or ash/loki. Enemies did not react to bodies in their LoS (13-14m) some went into "alert" half colored enemy marker, while others casual strolled past the body, others went full alert and shooting all 3 at the same time, which felt out of place. The alerted ones eventually returned to normal if i left them long enough.

I did a test with the body closer than 15m, direct view, seemed to work fine. However they never stopped being alerted preventing the ability to gain a stealth multiplier. Others were alert for 30s? then returned to normal, so you'd lose the multiplier which is understandable a body got seen.  

All fixable bugs. However this lead to an issue with the stealth bonus, no matter how well i tried whenever there were more than 3 enemies in my path there was no way to get past it without losing the stealth multiplier and hardly ever getting past x2 on average. I tried it with a different stealth frame (with invisibility)  and it was simpily a case of waiting a long time for one ot get out of los of the body = stealth multiplier gone by the time you could make your move almost a majority of the time. 

I think the issues have more to do with lacking use of "shadows", View distance, "hiding" spots.  Stealth has evolved into a more "slower" pace and this dosn't fit with the fast pace nature of the game, so it leaves you wondering if this means de are going to expand on it to the point it's simular to stealth games like splinter cell/metal gear or was this just a way to curb stomp stealth affinity. 

Edit: Should also mention, when doing the run with melee and not a sniper/bow. Majority of enemies would "line up" side by side or in odd spots that if attempting to melee would alert the other or "increase" the range you would be spotted at despite being out of their los prior to initiating the stealth attack resulting in no stealth multiplier. 

Edited November 16, 2016 by xFrostKnightx
typo/extra edit

[NekroArts]

I suggest they have Enemy Sense and/or Enemy Radar mod installed.

[Xephier223]

enemies already responded if the person next to them died (If no sleep/cc was stopping them) prior to this patch, if I killed two enemies who were too close, the other would notice. As far as the new patch, I'll give it does make stealth much harder, especially with BOWS because that corpse suddenly goes flying across the map and alerting everyone!

Which feels like it is counter intuitive since they're normally a great long range silent weapon. But now they end up killing me because they alert everyone.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Xephier223

[Olematon.Mies]

I'm not sure if OP has play any other stealth games before, but try to imagine a situation where your best friend told you and someone else to stand infront of a door while he goes inside to do X. Suddenly your buddy gets an arrow through the head and dies, right next to you. How do you react? A) - Do you panic, scream and shout that you just witnessed your buddy die, thus alerting everyone in the general area and possibly through intercom as well? B) - Do you narrow your eyes and look around, trying to locate the source where the arrow came from instead of alerting everyone that your buddy just died? C) - Do you just shrug it off as everyday shenanigans?

If your answer was either option B or C, you are doing a terrible job at being on guard duty and thus deserve to get shot. Option B is the current method of how Warframe enemies operate with, which is the absolute bare minimun of security for either Grineer, Corpus or otherwise. Hell - Corpus security cameras and even the Kuva Forthress detectors do not raise the alarm when they detect you. The only difference there is that Kuva Fortress alarms are only for that one room that you are in instead of - oh, I don't know - the entire Fortress. I mean, it's the Queen's home ffs, they are supposed to be the absolute best of the best Grineer forces, and you expect them to act like mindless idiots even if they are somewhat degraded clones?

The stealth mechanics, as difficult as they may be, make perfect sense and follow basic logic and common sense. It might not be easy to deal with, but it makes sense. I, for one, welcome this change with open arms.

[GinKenshin]

3 hours ago, Saske92 said:

If enemies can detected dead bodies through walls this would be a bug, it should only be in line of sight.

But you can not argue that if two enemies stand right next to each other and one gets killed the other should not be alerted.

It's a game, not all things should be realistic. "Space magic" as they say. It's like saying every enemy should be 1-hit from a headshot 

 

 and if 2 enemies are close enough, the other one will detect his buddy 

[heisthex]

1 hour ago, maikkeli31 said:

I'm not sure if OP has play any other stealth games before, but try to imagine a situation where your best friend told you and someone else to stand infront of a door while he goes inside to do X. Suddenly your buddy gets an arrow through the head and dies, right next to you. How do you react? A) - Do you panic, scream and shout that you just witnessed your buddy die, thus alerting everyone in the general area and possibly through intercom as well? B) - Do you narrow your eyes and look around, trying to locate the source where the arrow came from instead of alerting everyone that your buddy just died? C) - Do you just shrug it off as everyday shenanigans?

If your answer was either option B or C, you are doing a terrible job at being on guard duty and thus deserve to get shot. Option B is the current method of how Warframe enemies operate with, which is the absolute bare minimun of security for either Grineer, Corpus or otherwise. Hell - Corpus security cameras and even the Kuva Forthress detectors do not raise the alarm when they detect you. The only difference there is that Kuva Fortress alarms are only for that one room that you are in instead of - oh, I don't know - the entire Fortress. I mean, it's the Queen's home ffs, they are supposed to be the absolute best of the best Grineer forces, and you expect them to act like mindless idiots even if they are somewhat degraded clones?

The stealth mechanics, as difficult as they may be, make perfect sense and follow basic logic and common sense. It might not be easy to deal with, but it makes sense. I, for one, welcome this change with open arms.

The thing is Warframe doesn't do what other Stealth game do.

Stealth game will not make you rushing a level with a timer telling you will lose the benefits of affinity multiplier. The AI aren't walking in a fix pathway so you can't observe and plan what your next step is. You do not have arsenal of gadgets to lure, put out nor drag any corpse that would compromise your rewarding stealth affinity bonus. You also have to think how to use the Convergence orb 45 seconds to get as much stealth kills so the low percentage of converting affinity to focus points is a lens of 1.25%.

A fast pace game as Warframe make a change to slow us down is not a good change.

[Olematon.Mies]

28 minutes ago, heisthex said:

The thing is Warframe doesn't do what other Stealth game do.

Stealth game will not make you rushing a level with a timer telling you will lose the benefits of affinity multiplier. The AI aren't walking in a fix pathway so you can't observe and plan what your next step is. You do not have arsenal of gadgets to lure, put out nor drag any corpse that would compromise your rewarding stealth affinity bonus. You also have to think how to use the Convergence orb 45 seconds to get as much stealth kills so the low percentage of converting affinity to focus points is a lens of 1.25%.

A fast pace game as Warframe make a change to slow us down is not a good change.

Payday 2 is not a stealth game at heart either and it handles stealth wonderfully, even when exluding the stealth elements that it has that Warframe doesn't, such as answering pagers, body bagging and object interaction.

Not every player likes it, not every player is good at it, but is it right to take something away from those who enjoy it? I might be the only one, but I enjoy taking my time around the Kuva Fortress, because that tile set is simply so massive. There is so much to take in, so many hidden things to find, so much to explore.... So many stealth possibilities.

If someone likes to just rush 360 no-scope 420 blaze it through missions without giving a damn about stealth or any of the finer details the map has to offer, thats fine. That doesn't mean that it's wrong for someone to take their time and spend 30 minutes doing an Exterminate or Spy mission in the Fortress in an attempt to do a legit "Perfect Stealth" run, meaning no invisibility and only actual sneaky-sneaky stealth.

I am willing to go as far as to say that a similar system like answering pagers would be a welcomed change into Warframe stealth. I mean, if you just killed 5 of their soldiers it's not like they will go completely unnoticed. For a small time, perhaps, but sooner or later some one will notice. I would even welcome a mission type that is so strict that even if one, single enemy unit suspects that something is up, he would alert the entire station which would send it to a permanent 'caution' status, and once you actually get spotted they instantly sound the alarm over intercom and its game over because they just executed the hostage that you came to save, or the assassination target is so far away that theres no physical way for you to catch them.

There needs to be more to the entire stealth element of Warframe, and it should greatly be expanded upon. If the Tenno are supposed to be Space Ninjas, and if true, historically accurate Ninjas were all about stealth, sabotage, infiltration and espionage instead of straight up combat, wouldn't the entire statement of Tenno being badass Space Ninjas be false right from the start? As of right now, Tenno are NOT ninjas. The Tenno are Warriors. Fighters. Skillful, well equipped Killers. Ninja's did not fight or jukk unless is was absolutely necessary, and even then they would make every attempt to get away with as little bloodshed as possible. Only once every blue moon they would assassinate someone, but even that would be a carefully planned move. If they had to engage in one-on-one combat, generally the ninja would be at a disadvantage by default, thus relying on stealth and distractions in order to do what they went to do.

 

All in all, the stealth aspects of Warframe are indeed lacking, but just because the current core gameplay is to murder thousands of enemies a minute, it shouldn't be a limiting factor for expanding upon what little stealth elements there already are in the game.

[Chewarette]

Are people saying "That was unrealistic" serious ?

That's a game so 1) we don't care about realisticness 2) if something is realistic and boring, that has nothing to do here, we prefer unrealistic but fun things.

3 hours ago, maikkeli31 said:

I'm not sure if OP has play any other stealth games before, but try to imagine a situation where your best friend told you and someone else to stand infront of a door while he goes inside to do X. Suddenly your buddy gets an arrow through the head and dies, right next to you. How do you react? A) - Do you panic, scream and shout that you just witnessed your buddy die, thus alerting everyone in the general area and possibly through intercom as well? B) - Do you narrow your eyes and look around, trying to locate the source where the arrow came from instead of alerting everyone that your buddy just died? C) - Do you just shrug it off as everyday shenanigans?

We talking about Grineer. Not the elite mastermind you seem to think they are. You know, those geniuses that try to kill an obviously superior Warframe with Machetes

Edited November 16, 2016 by Chewarette

[Olematon.Mies]

31 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

We talking about Grineer. Not the elite mastermind you seem to think they are. You know, those geniuses that try to kill an obviously superior Warframe with Machetes

Except that all the things that apply to Grineer also apply to the Corpus, and as we both surely know, the Corpus are not genetically degraded morons and instead are smart(er) merchants with highly advanced robotics and other techical advances which should be a clear sign of their superior inteligence.

And you know what?

Each Corpus Crewman, Tech, Nullifier and even their MOAs are just as big geniuses as the Grineer Butchers and Scorpions who run at you with their trusty cleavers and machetes and - despite their genetic flaws - still manage to hit you with their hooks with an almost scary accuracy. Thereby your argument is invalid.

[Tizodd]

When I initially saw the stealth change (enemies notice dead bodies), I thought it was a good change for immersion.  But after experiencing it, not so much...we have no way of disposing of bodies so the change is really bad for any type of stealth gameplay.

In other games where stealth is a thing:

• Enemies don't notice bodies, or
• Players can drag bodies out of sight

Given the enemy density (enemies in large groups) of Warframe, I feel it's better if this change is reverted.

[Chewarette]

1 hour ago, maikkeli31 said:

Except that all the things that apply to Grineer also apply to the Corpus, and as we both surely know, the Corpus are not genetically degraded morons and instead are smart(er) merchants with highly advanced robotics and other techical advances which should be a clear sign of their superior inteligence.

And you know what?

Each Corpus Crewman, Tech, Nullifier and even their MOAs are just as big geniuses as the Grineer Butchers and Scorpions who run at you with their trusty cleavers and machetes and - despite their genetic flaws - still manage to hit you with their hooks with an almost scary accuracy. Thereby your argument is invalid.

1- Corpus are intelligent, their army doesn't need to be. Plus, their robots are far from showing any form of advanced intelligence or whatever as they're just fighting you, the robotic thing that destroyed much more advanced civilizations on the front line. Hell, Oxium drones even try to kill you by committing suicide without taking into account any movement you're making.

2- The fact that someone has a perfect accuracy doesn't mean he's some form of intelligent guy who will know how to deal with Warframe's threat. I'm perfectly fine with Grineer and Corpus troops being complete morons. They totally wouldn't bring you the PowerCells you need during Excavations if they were smart.

We don't need perfect realism either. Something that breaks one type of gameplay just because "it feels more real now" should be removed.

If tomorrow they add real physics to these Eris map, you'll be sucked into space as soon as you walk into broken parts of the ship. Would that make the game more realistic ? Yes. More fun ? Dunno.

Edit : And I'm not at all the kind of stealth guy. I never play Loki or Ivara beyond Sortie Spies.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Chewarette

[Rin01]

In my opinion I like the new changes. It needs tweaking and bug fixing, so enemies spot bodies in a more reliable way (without spotting through walls, etc.) but overall I like that stealth is harder. It should be. Being stealthy should be a much slower careful playstyle, and these changes force that a bit more.

[ograzzt]

Warframe maps have too many enemies for realistic stealth, even old system had a lot of bandaids (alerted state on spawn for several seconds is a good example), which they added after people started use stealth for focus farming. This corpse reaction is nothing but overkill for the whole stealth multiplier thing.

There were actually more nerfs for stealth in TWW.

1. They restricted passive focus gain from applying stealth multiplier. Ok, I can understand that. Group stealth levelling was a weird thing.

2. They added nullifiers reaction on attacking their bubbles. Again, realistically it makes sense, but... How we should deal with them now without alerting the whole room and losing our multiplier? There are other enemies around and even inside bubble. 

3. They added exploding barrels everywhere. There are so much barrels after TWW, I feel like grineers decided to fight tenno by exploding their own ships and asteroids.

Which means we can't use long range weapons anymore. Barrels with huge explosion radius will just alert everyone. But we can't use short range weapons too because of enemies corpse detection. Why do we even still have stealth multiplier if we can't keep it up because of bandaids DE keep adding to their stealth system?Stealth was finally made rewarding after introducing affinity multipliers, even after so many nerfs to it it still was rewarding, but in TWW they decided to finish it off anyway. 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

6 hours ago, maikkeli31 said:

I'm not sure if OP has play any other stealth games before, but try to imagine a situation where your best friend told you and someone else to stand infront of a door while he goes inside to do X. Suddenly your buddy gets an arrow through the head and dies, right next to you. How do you react? A) - Do you panic, scream and shout that you just witnessed your buddy die, thus alerting everyone in the general area and possibly through intercom as well? B) - Do you narrow your eyes and look around, trying to locate the source where the arrow came from instead of alerting everyone that your buddy just died? C) - Do you just shrug it off as everyday shenanigans?

If your answer was either option B or C, you are doing a terrible job at being on guard duty and thus deserve to get shot. Option B is the current method of how Warframe enemies operate with, which is the absolute bare minimun of security for either Grineer, Corpus or otherwise. Hell - Corpus security cameras and even the Kuva Forthress detectors do not raise the alarm when they detect you. The only difference there is that Kuva Fortress alarms are only for that one room that you are in instead of - oh, I don't know - the entire Fortress. I mean, it's the Queen's home ffs, they are supposed to be the absolute best of the best Grineer forces, and you expect them to act like mindless idiots even if they are somewhat degraded clones?

The stealth mechanics, as difficult as they may be, make perfect sense and follow basic logic and common sense. It might not be easy to deal with, but it makes sense. I, for one, welcome this change with open arms.

I agree that they make sense, but the problem (among everything else listed) is that other stealth games don't typically put you on a map with hundreds of enemies. Most of those enemies stand in groups, which apparently makes it an unusable mechanic. If that's the case why not just remove those stealth mechanics from the game completely?