This is a periodic request to make the Dual Toxocyst's buff refresh if triggered while active.

[Chroia]

Thank you.

[hukurokuju5]

yesplz

[SolarDwagon]

Agreed, they need it.

[RealPandemonium]

As far as I can see, it is the way it is so that you actually have to think about maintaining the buff and don't just always have it on.   If you're getting consistent headshots then it shouldn't matter either way.  

[Helljack84]

9 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

As far as I can see, it is the way it is so that you actually have to think about maintaining the buff and don't just always have it on.   If you're getting consistent headshots then it shouldn't matter either way.  

If I'm aiming for headshots all the time what's the difference? As it is now you could do 20 headshots in a row and the weapon still goes into garbage mode every few seconds. In which way does that add thinking about maintaining the buff? You can't maintain it at all, it's impossible. 

[RealPandemonium]

5 hours ago, Helljack84 said:

If I'm aiming for headshots all the time what's the difference? As it is now you could do 20 headshots in a row and the weapon still goes into garbage mode every few seconds. In which way does that add thinking about maintaining the buff? You can't maintain it at all, it's impossible. 

The tone of your post gives away your true intentions.  

The gun is designed to be in "garbage mode" as its default state.  It rewards you with a short burst of power when you headshot, but is meant as a slow pistol weapon a la Lex, essentially.  Strong weapons with big maxcases should have drawbacks and conditions that force the user to work to make them shine, instead of just solving the game from the loadout screen with no effort involved.

If you can get headshots consistently on-demand, you will get the most out of this weapon.  If you can't, challenge yourself to do so or, use the Synoid laser pointer or something.  

Edited November 17, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[NekroArts]

Refreshing the buff while active sounds like always having its bonus effects. If that's the case why not just request them to remove the mechanic, buff it's fire rate, give it toxin damage, reduce recoil, remove infinite ammo, and increase its max ammo and magazine?

[SolarDwagon]

The problem is that in "excited" mode, the weapon is still second tier. If you could at least keep it there, it'd be a good alternative for people wanting to not use "meta" secondaries that still requires some skill to keep good. As it is, they're outclassed at best and awful at worst (enemies that are harder to headshot, like weakspot bosses etc)

[Chroia]

11 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

The tone of your post gives away your true intentions.  

The gun is designed to be in "garbage mode" as its default state.  It rewards you with a short burst of power when you headshot, but is meant as a slow pistol weapon a la Lex, essentially.  Strong weapons with big maxcases should have drawbacks and conditions that force the user to work to make them shine, instead of just solving the game from the loadout screen with no effort involved.

If you can get headshots consistently on-demand, you will get the most out of this weapon.  If you can't, challenge yourself to do so or, use the Synoid laser pointer or something.  

You know that feeling when you're going down a staircase in the dark, and think you've gone down all the stairs but discover with a lurch that nope! there was 1 more?

If I'm using these pistols, I'm probably ADSing.
If I'm ADSing, I'm most likely focused on the crosshair, and can't see the buff timer.
And it's very wrong-footing to suddenly have your tempo shift.

Also, how often do you use this weapon?
I don't know about you, but with the buff dropping requiring another unbuffed (and so, ammo-consuming) shot, I'll often trigger the buff with what ends up being the last bullet in the mag and force a reload.

Also also, honestly - how is refreshing the buff any less 'making the player work to make it shine'?
You still need headshots to get the buff. Refreshing the buff merely doesn't-punish you irrespective of your accuracy because 'lol time's up'.

 

And if straight-up making the buff refresh is 'too OP' -
I'd probably live with making the UI element move to the 'Convergence position' while in ADS.
I could live with trading 2 sec off the duration (6s->4s) for the buff to refresh.

tl;dr - I'm not asking for a buff, I'm asking for QoL.

 

11 hours ago, NekroArts said:

Refreshing the buff while active sounds like always having its bonus effects. If that's the case why not just request them to remove the mechanic, buff it's fire rate, give it toxin damage, reduce recoil, remove infinite ammo, and increase its max ammo and magazine?

Because I'm not asking for a weapon buff, I'm asking for the weapon buff to do what it's supposed to do:
If the buff is there to reward accuracy, and you're accurate, it should reward you. But you do still need to be accurate.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Chroia

[SquidTheSid]

Even with the buff, it's still a subpar weapon (in that it's easily outclasses by weapons that aren't reliant on gimmicks, like the Lex Prime). I'd say making the buff refreshable would definitely help it out.

[NekroArts]

1 hour ago, Chroia said:

Because I'm not asking for a weapon buff, I'm asking for the weapon buff to do what it's supposed to do:
If the buff is there to reward accuracy, and you're accurate, it should reward you. But you do still need to be accurate.

To be precise the buff is there to reward accuracy under the pressure of its recoil. If your request was already in, once you get the buff the reduced recoil makes it easier to land future headshots thus sustaining the buff almost indefinitely.

[Helljack84]

4 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

To be precise the buff is there to reward accuracy under the pressure of its recoil. If your request was already in, once you get the buff the reduced recoil makes it easier to land future headshots thus sustaining the buff almost indefinitely.

How exactly would that be bad on a weapon that's not even top tier? You could choose ~10 sidearms that have better damageoutput without playing a minigame. That's not rewarding that's crippling yourself with a subpar weapon to play minigames.

 

13 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

The tone of your post gives away your true intentions.  Please enlighten me on what my true intentions are.

The gun is designed to be in "garbage mode" as its default state.  It rewards you with a short burst of power when you headshot, but is meant as a slow pistol weapon a la Lex, essentially.  Strong weapons with big maxcases should have drawbacks and conditions that force the user to work to make them shine, instead of just solving the game from the loadout screen with no effort involved.

So getting constant headshots is no work or effort and just solving the game from the loadout screen. OK

If you can get headshots consistently on-demand, you will get the most out of this weapon.  If you can't, challenge yourself to do so or, use the Synoid laser pointer or something.  

No I won't be rewarded, no matter how many headshots you score the weapon will still return to garbage mode. 

 

 

[NekroArts]

35 minutes ago, Helljack84 said:

How exactly would that be bad on a weapon that's not even top tier? You could choose ~10 sidearms that have better damageoutput without playing a minigame. That's not rewarding that's crippling yourself with a subpar weapon to play minigames.

I'm not arguing against you because it'll make the toxocyst OP, I'm arguing against you because having the buff indefinitely pretty much renders the "land headshot, get excited" mechanic redundant. Having that buff up almost all the time is pretty much wanting those bonus stats to be there always. That pretty much equals to buffing the toxocyst with the stats from its mechanic while removing the mechanic.

[Callback]

Hydraulic Crosshairs refreshes.

 

Why shouldn't the weapon's base bonus do the same?

 

If you're continuously performing the trigger, you should continuously maintain the reward.  The mod works like that, the gun should as well.  Other things like melee and sniper combos work the same way, the only exception being that their bonus gets BIGGER for maintaining it for longer.  This one only needs to stay at its base level.  Same with the berserker mod.  Same with probably some other mods or weapons I'm forgetting.  

[NekroArts]

9 minutes ago, Callback said:

Hydraulic Crosshairs refreshes.

 

Why shouldn't the weapon's base bonus do the same?

 

If you're continuously performing the trigger, you should continuously maintain the reward.  The mod works like that, the gun should as well.  Other things like melee and sniper combos work the same way, the only exception being that their bonus gets BIGGER for maintaining it for longer.  This one only needs to stay at its base level.  Same with the berserker mod.  Same with probably some other mods or weapons I'm forgetting.  

Hydraulic Crosshairs and sniper & melee combo gives only one bonus. The Dual Toxocyst gives four bonuses, all which drastically improves the weapons performance.

[RealPandemonium]

14 hours ago, Helljack84 said:

How exactly would that be bad on a weapon that's not even top tier? You could choose ~10 sidearms that have better damageoutput without playing a minigame. That's not rewarding that's crippling yourself with a subpar weapon to play minigames.

Please enlighten me on what my true intentions are.

Weapons are already powercreeped enough as it is.  Dual Toxocyst's design is going in the right direction, and the egregious outliers should at least in part be balanced by mechanics like this.  Also, "subpar" doesn't mean anything when you can tear through cutting-edge content with it.

When you come into a thread calling an already powerful weapon "trash," it's clear that you have an agenda to powercreep everything and would happily continue the spiral of imbalance that currently plagues Warframe and makes its gameplay meaningless.  The attitude of "meta is the only thing that matters, and let's keep expanding it" goes against Warframe's strengths as a game and needs to be reigned in.  "Meta" should not be much more attractive than the rest of our options, and gameplay should matter in all missions and at all stages of the game.  

Edited November 18, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Helljack84]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

tl

Hmm, from my pov it was more like. Why not keep the buff if you can constantly trigger it. 

BUT

Ok, you got me. My only intention was to completely destroy game balance. Thanks to your wild imagination my evil plan was found out. Good job, have a cookie.

 

[DeadScream]

Hey, HEEEEEY ! 

 

If we make it so the bonus refreshes only if you manage to head shot between the 2 last seconds of the countdown ? 

 

And please, enemies move so randomly it's actually a pain in the ash to perform effective headshots. + 50% of Corpus and infested seem to have nothing considered as a head... 

[Chroia]

17 hours ago, SolarDwagon said:

The problem is that in "excited" mode, the weapon is still second tier. If you could at least keep it there, it'd be a good alternative for people wanting to not use "meta" secondaries that still requires some skill to keep good. As it is, they're outclassed at best and awful at worst (enemies that are harder to headshot, like weakspot bosses etc)

I'm not even talking about the weapon's power, nor using that as justification for the requested change, though.

And yes, hard/no headshot enemies are very... what's the opposite of beneficial? Maleficial? to this weapon.

-----

5 hours ago, NekroArts said:

To be precise the buff is there to reward accuracy under the pressure of its recoil. If your request was already in, once you get the buff the reduced recoil makes it easier to land future headshots thus sustaining the buff almost indefinitely.

Fair enough, but recoil has no effect on your first shot, anyway - so it makes no difference.
If you're blindly spamming unbuffed, hoping for a headshot, instead of taking a moment to line up a shot - which, at least for me, isn't much longer than recovering from recoil would take anyway - you deserve what you (don't) get.

5 hours ago, NekroArts said:

To be precise the buff is there to reward accuracy under the pressure of its recoil. If your request was already in, once you get the buff the reduced recoil makes it easier to land future headshots thus sustaining the buff almost indefinitely.

<snip>

I'm arguing against you because having the buff indefinitely pretty much renders the "land headshot, get excited" mechanic redundant. Having that buff up almost all the time is pretty much wanting those bonus stats to be there always. That pretty much equals to buffing the toxocyst with the stats from its mechanic while removing the mechanic.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand what you're saying.

Unless I'm rushing through a mission, or bunkered up in a Survival/Excavation(/def), I don't expect to always have a head available to shoot - or the downtime to line one up - every 6 seconds.

There's a difference between maintaining uptime while you're putting effort into it, and asking for a buff to the baseline stats.
I repeat: I'm not asking for a buff to the stats. That's not the my point in this request.
I'm asking that the mechanics, which are independent of the stats, be made more user-friendly.

-----

3 hours ago, NekroArts said:

Hydraulic Crosshairs and sniper & melee combo gives only one bonus. The Dual Toxocyst gives four bonuses, all which drastically improves the weapons performance.

Are you seriously comparing the statistical benefits of a single mod to a weapon?

Like me, Callback is comparing another instance of the same mechanic - which happens to be granted by a mod - to that on the Dual Toxocysts.
The stats don't play in to it at all.

-----

P.S., for comparison's sake, Aklex vs. Dual Toxocysts.

[NekroArts]

39 minutes ago, Chroia said:

Are you seriously comparing the statistical benefits of a single mod to a weapon?

Like me, Callback is comparing another instance of the same mechanic - which happens to be granted by a mod - to that on the Dual Toxocysts.
The stats don't play in to it at all.

It's because Callback involved the mod into the argument that the stats now play in to it. Using the two as the base of the argument we know that they share similar mechanic, that would certainly justify your request. So then what's the difference between the two that's preventing it?

• One's a mod the other's a weapon?
• One's gives 1 bonus the other gives 4?
• One's bonus give an increase stat but the weapon feels the same while the other increase multiple stats and it feels completely different?

If we're changing the base of the argument from solely about the Dual Toxocyst to both the Toxocyst and Hydraulic Crosshairs then I'm leaning more towards the stat side.

[SolarDwagon]

Seriously, why are we arguing so hard against a positive change on a weapon that is a) unintuitive (tapshoot until headshot, then spam, lose buff, repeat) and b) completely off meta.

[DinendalMinyatur]

Time to necro this post to remind that dual toxocyst needs a buff to be viable

Thank you.

[SubjectXIII]

Why are people so afraid of letting this weapon simply refresh it's buff while it's active?

Are we supposed to be worried that it'll turn into some sort of monster of a weapon? Even if the buff was permanently on with no need to activate it the weapon itself would still fall short of being overpowered.

[Vox_Preliator]

On 1/19/2017 at 0:48 PM, DinendalMinyatur said:

Time to necro this post to remind that dual toxocyst needs a buff to be viable

Thank you.

Viable in what context?

They seem plenty strong to me, in most reasonably-leveled content I get a headshot and it's like "Oh hey, everything dies" and that's not even counting its interaction with Peacemaker, which is more like "Oh hey, ALL THAT IS SHALL BE NOTHING ONCE MORE."  I'm not going to (to borrow a phrase from Team Fortress 2) mindlessly W+M1 my way through Sortie 3 content, but with care I can totally deal with missions like that with just these guns.

I just think they're sufficiently strong.  Sure, they could be stronger, and I wouldn't say no to making one of my favorite weapons better, but I really don't see them needing anything more. 

[TrickshotMcGee]

If the weapon could refresh the buff while active, it would permanently have infinite ammo for anyone with any ability to aim at all. And it's not exactly a weak gun, either, so permanent infinite ammo + good stats + no recoil and that doesn't equate to an issue for you?

There's a reason it can't refresh itself, and that's because it IS powerful enough for that to be a problem.