[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 2!

[polarity]

14 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Thats a terrible idea.

If RNG is already a hell, that's just skewing it against your favor, literally making good stats even less common. It will just increase the frustration.

At least now you have the same chance to get a bad or a good stat. That would ensure such doesn't happen.

Did you even bother to read my post properly, or are you one of the many functional illiterates who just scan everything looking for a few terms to disagree with, and quote everything out of context?  If you're going to quote a post, read all of it.

My number 1 point (above what you quoted, which renumbered 2 and 3 to 1 and 2) specifically stated that there would be no bad stat combinations.  All of the possibilities would be of use for the weapon they could occur on, and considered an improvement over almost any mod that is not primed, with the worst case scenario being mods like +reload speed, +magazine size, and +max ammo (the values for which would make the mod a better choice than any existing mod that provides those stats, even at 'white' quality), or +damage, +crit, +multishot, and one of -reload speed, -magazine size, or -accuracy, instead of having three otherwise great stats completely gimped by something like a -100% slash damage on a weapon that does majority slash damage.

Edited November 29, 2016 by polarity

[NewMilenium]

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I wouldn't call that a partial solution to the problem. As I stated before even with a 50% chance of getting a riven after completing the daily sortie the chance of obtaining a mod for a specific rifle assuming there are 40 weapons in the pool is 1/2*1/40=1/80 =1.25%

This is in problem 1 (too much RNG in the riven system), not problem 4 (riven mods are obtained only in sorties). And some solutions to that are proposed as well (" * being able to choose 1 weapon among 5 randomly chosen possible weapons when finishing the Unveiling riven-mod quest," "* being able to choose the weapon for the riven mod based on weapon equipped when unlocking the mod"). Feel free to propose more though. When you remind the solution to obtain more rivens ("obtain riven mods somewhere else too"), this is to solve better the partially-solved problem 4.

 

 

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My number 1 point specifically stated that there would be no bad stat combinations.

"Good" or "bad" stats can be factual (example : +slash on simulor is in fact bad), or entirely a point of view (example : +zoom on any weapon). Thus removing possible stats should be done, if done, by each player individually - hence the proposals regarding that in my post to the Problem 1.

And regarding your proposal, replacing a terrible gameplay mechanic "all on RNG" by "all on farming + RNG" doesn't sound sexy. (64 riven mods = 1 best??? Rarities, so farm until you earn what you need? bleeeeh. Choices please, thanks.)

 

 

Imagine those simple things applied instead, all together :

* riven mods can be obtained from all "normal" missions as a rare drop if all players in the missions have done The War Within.

* when you unlock a riven mod, it becomes a mod of the weapon you equipped it on.

* when you cycle a riven mod, before rolling the next stats, you choose a stat that will definitely be removed from the rolled positive stats of that cycle and all the next ones for that mod.

* you can spend 1000 kuva + 500 endo to boost a riven mod. When the riven mod has its stats "maxed" you are told and cannot spend kuva+endo anymore on it.

* all weapons have 2 unique mods, making all of them interesting.

* no more 15 riven mods limit, riven mods are limited at 2 per weapon name per player.

* the MR required is 10, then raises by 1 per cycle and by 1 per stat boost, to a limit of 16.

* in addition to siphons, kuva can be obtained by killing some special high-level grineer squads that can spawn in any high-level mission when all players of that mission have done The War Within. Those grineers spawn in dead-end rooms, are randomly 10 to 15 and each of them, each dropping 10 to 30 kuva on death. 0 to 1 squad can spawn per mission, 50% chance. (=> brings back exploration!)

* The less a siphon gets kuva, the more the players get kuva at the end of the mission.

 

Then all problems would be gone, right?

[Madway7]

3 hours ago, NewMilenium said:

Imagine those simple things applied instead, all together :

* riven mods can be obtained from all "normal" missions as a rare drop if all players in the missions have done The War Within.

* when you unlock a riven mod, it becomes a mod of the weapon you equipped it on.

* when you cycle a riven mod, before rolling the next stats, you choose a stat that will definitely be removed from the rolled positive stats of that cycle and all the next ones for that mod.

* you can spend 1000 kuva + 500 endo to boost a riven mod. When the riven mod has its stats "maxed" you are told and cannot spend kuva+endo anymore on it.

* all weapons have 2 unique mods, making all of them interesting.

* no more 15 riven mods limit, riven mods are limited at 2 per weapon name per player.

* the MR required is 10, then raises by 1 per cycle and by 1 per stat boost, to a limit of 16.

* in addition to siphons, kuva can be obtained by killing some special high-level grineer squads that can spawn in any high-level mission when all players of that mission have done The War Within. Those grineers spawn in dead-end rooms, are randomly 10 to 15 and each of them, each dropping 10 to 30 kuva on death. 0 to 1 squad can spawn per mission, 50% chance. (=> brings back exploration!)

* The less a siphon gets kuva, the more the players get kuva at the end of the mission.

 

Then all problems would be gone, right?

1. I don't agree with as I see "Riven Hunt (Must have completed TWW)" being a big thing in chat and it would be about as effective as non beacon Stalker hunts probably. And technically it would encourage solo play on easier missions just to avoid a non TWW completed player joining in.

2. I kind of agree and disagree, to some extent I like the randomness of the weapons, at the same time not. It would definately make an impact on trade chat prices though. Also this is in conflict with 5 if you don't take note that you already have 2 rivens of the same weapon (it would have to give you a warning somewhere).

3. So is it mandatory? Because you didn't say "can choose". Also it's practically useless if you can only choose 1 stat. Sure you avoided getting +slash ever again on your Simulor mod, but what about +puncture and impact?

And if you can choose 1 stat per cycle I feel like it would be too much of a player customized mod as long as they can farm enough kuva. On the plus side I do find it would 100% justify the infinite rising kuva cost.

4. You didn't exactly state what the "boost" does.

5. I don't understand what you mean by that.

6. Like I said it's sort of in conflict with 2 unless there's a warning preventing you from trying to get 3 rivens for the same weapon. Personally I kinda prefer the randomness of the weapon (sentinel weapons should definately have been removed from the list, it's kinda too late now).

7. So it was a stat boost? I don't quite agree with that as it brings back the issue of rivns for overused weapons being better and another issue that's hard for me to explain atm (the F2P issue of directly "improving stats" with an extra grindwall, making stats lower on purpose so you have to pay more to get the new "better" stats, also the seeming mandatory nature that stat improvements brings to only serve to increase to grind time)

8. I've had my own idea of how MR could work here. Yours is... idk. 

9. My main issue here is the 0-1 per mission. This sounds like the Acolyte hunt only with a random number of enemies instead of 1. If it's a 50% per room checked you may as well put this mechanic as a fortress only thing and make them spawn under specific circumstances.

10. Only issue I see here is people yelling at randoms for letting 1 or 2 Kuva get through, beyond that it's ok as long as the bonus is in adition to what we get now instead of a new amount you get is based on how much Kuva got in the siphon system.

 

[Soraph]

5 hours ago, NewMilenium said:

This is in problem 1 (too much RNG in the riven system), not problem 4 (riven mods are obtained only in sorties). And some solutions to that are proposed as well (" * being able to choose 1 weapon among 5 randomly chosen possible weapons when finishing the Unveiling riven-mod quest," "* being able to choose the weapon for the riven mod based on weapon equipped when unlocking the mod"). Feel free to propose more though. When you remind the solution to obtain more rivens ("obtain riven mods somewhere else too"), this is to solve better the partially-solved problem 4.

Part of RNG is the amout of rolls we get, so problem 1 and 4 can't be solved separately. If we could customize our rivens as much as we like but could only obtain one in 10 years the RNG problem would still exist.

You don't have to reroll your rivens more than 20 times, when there are [easy] ways to obtain more of the same type - in other words to roll a new one.

[OscargamersB]

when hotfix histeria infinite bug valkyr prime

[Sirfol]

I tryed the riven system for a while now with the new changes so it's time to give a feedback. 

1… i understand the rolling cost mechanichs is for increasing the value for the riven mod and give a push to the player to try new things but here the problems:

A)If your intention is to expand the riven system to other weapons type (secondary and melee) then the increasing cost will create frustation, because u will have many riven mods to roll and when u roll 7/8 times the cost of the roll will make the players choose to roll only strong weapons, u can't farm kuva all day long, and we will have the same problem of unused weapon because it's not worth the time spent. Put in a cap.

B) because of many type of weapons the riven system will make player roll for the funniest mechanichs and in secondary there are not many weapons with original shooting concept or multitarget (only a few). This will make player roll riven only for primary or melee, when u will implement riven for other class i suggest to make a different rolling cost for secondary, to give the player the possibility to at least try with the change if a roling primary to roll a secondary riven mod.

2) Disposition is a good idea but if u nerf the damage a riven tonkor, tonkor will stay stronger because the buffs are in a % value. I suggest to change the TYPE of buffs the riven mods give with the Disposition instead to continue to use the same buff for all Disposition. Example the weak dispotion will give really low dmg but a higher utility buff (fire rate, magazine,projectile speed and so on) and lower the chances for a debuff to make it more appealing. Strong disposition will give higher dmg buffs, higher utility, and normal debuff.

3) Increase the cap or make buyable caps with kuva.

4) Make the riven mods a reward for High levels juction content (1 time), make it a rare reward for rathuum and the future index high level arenas so we can farm it in more than one way. However do This when u add the the secondary and melee. If possible make it a rare drop from lvl 100 sortie boss so we can have a chance 2 times. It's all RNG anyway so make more chances to have the possibility to get a riven.

5) Make the Riven possible to unveil at a High cost of TRACES ( i'm thinking 700-900) so players with less strategic ability can have a more fail-safe approach and maybe will stop to whine(i hope). I don't have a problem with the challenges but there are people that don't want to be restricted playing (not me). 

The riven system concept is great but u need to make it more user-friendly. 

Thanks for the hard work you put in the game !

[Snake]

On 11/29/2016 at 10:56 AM, OscargamersB said:

when hotfix histeria infinite bug valkyr prime

This post makes as much since as Roger Ebert's comment on the cover of Princess Mononoke DVD.

Anyways - Really looking forward to some comments about what the community has posted here.

Edited December 1, 2016 by 5nak3Doctor

[Synpai]

On 11/30/2016 at 5:18 AM, Sirfol said:

If your intention is to expand the riven system to other weapons type (secondary and melee) then the increasing cost will create frustation, because u will have many riven mods to roll and when u roll 7/8 times the cost of the roll will make the players choose to roll only strong weapons, u can't farm kuva all day long, and we will have the same problem of unused weapon because it's not worth the time spent. Put in a cap.

Still praying that they allow us to reroll with credits instead of Kuva. And the cap is hurting their system more than helping. I still think we should be able to get Rivens for any and all weapons. I think gun challenges (like... -__- Call of Duty) or gun mastery tests would give players interest in using different guns, even if it's just to get Rivens for all the guns.

 

For example, weekly "Riven Sorties" where you're only allowed to use a randomly decided gun, but as a reward you get a confirmed Riven for that gun.

*slides Resume under door*

On 11/30/2016 at 5:18 AM, Sirfol said:

B) because of many type of weapons the riven system will make player roll for the funniest mechanichs and in secondary there are not many weapons with original shooting concept or multitarget (only a few). This will make player roll riven only for primary or melee, when u will implement riven for other class i suggest to make a different rolling cost for secondary, to give the player the possibility to at least try with the change if a roling primary to roll a secondary riven mod.

This is why Kuva should be used for things like buying more riven mods or locking in stats when rerolling.

And credits should be used for re-rolling in general (Seriously this resource is just sitting, begging to be used).

This way sorties give you a CHANCE to get a free Riven mod, but you can just farm and buy more "Rifle" or "Melee" riven mods, making the wall significantly smaller.

People that dont have time/dont want to go through the effort of getting Kuva will still buy Riven mods; Riven mods just wont be like adding a pop up water station to a town in the desert. 

On 11/30/2016 at 5:18 AM, Sirfol said:

3) Increase the cap or make buyable caps with kuva.

Such a Love-Hate with buyable caps.

Honestly, if you get Rivens for all guns, the game will be in the same state that it was previously. Every gun will move up, some will be more used than others. Granted, the lower tier weapons would have greater viability.

If you get Rivens for a limited amount of guns, the game will be in a worse state than previously with so much limitation I know I would only focus on the strongest weapons possible. Even if top tier weapons arent in the loop, I'd still only gravitate to the next highest.

 

[Finedaible]

I do agree with some of the players here about having a ceiling on cycling costs. Even if it were a somewhat high ceiling, it would be better than now since in the current state we can end up with a really high cost mod twhich we've spent a lot of time investment into and will ultimately need to be scrapped if it never obtains decent enough stats (or if we come across a better one). I feel like putting a ceiling at ~6250 kuva would be a fair amount per re-roll at that point, requiring roughly 10-11 successful siphons in order to roll it again. RNG of the stats already prevents us from making Riven mods immediately powerful, so it's likely we'll have to cycle them many more times over even with the ceiling in place. This is assuming there is no coding bias towards certain combinations of stats.

[Syvarin]

Before I begin, I want to say this is not intended as criticism or complaint. I do, however, believe the Riven system could be improved in several ways.

First, DE's stated purpose for Riven mods:

We want to give players something unique to them that can speak to their wider Arsenal. We want to give new life to the Arsenal in a non-static way. Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style. We’re all familiar with blazing through missions to the Extraction Point, but this system gives players new challenges that require them to test the creative limits of their Arsenal in their quest to Unveil their new Mods. Yes, meta weapons are in the selection pool, but Riven Mods are not needed to make this gear (like the Tonkor or Synoid Simulor) more powerful. What they can do is add an interesting buff to a comparatively underpowered weapon in order to encourage players to think outside of that meta box. This is why we have prevented players from choosing what weapon the Riven Mod will be for; if we didn’t, we would end up with millions of Soma Mods and none for the Gorgon. The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’. For those of you who want to find the best Mod possible, that avenue is available to you, but that is not the goal behind this system.

In summary, the sort of scenario DE hoped would happen:
A player gets a riven mod for the Miter. The mod does not grant a perfect stat boost, but it makes things interesting enough that the player pulls their dusty Miter out of storage and tries it out. The player finds they actually enjoy this weapon they passed over because its stats weren't good enough before.

A scenario of what is actually happening:
After a few weeks of sorties, a player gets a riven mod for the Miter. It grants boosts to crit chance and crit damage on a weapon that never deals critical hits. Also, the player sold their Miter after mastering it because it wasn't interesting enough to keep and inventory space is limited.  Then they got annoyed when the Panthera came out and required a Miter to build. They went grinding to get it a second time and then used it to build the Panthera. They will not go grinding for it a third time just so they can spend hours ranking it up to forma it multiple times so they can put their now heavily rerolled riven mod into it. In short, the player got a riven mod they didn't want and will never use.

I'm not saying things never go as DE hoped they would. My very first riven mod was for the Sybaris, which I did not previously like. Since I could use my riven mod to give it red crits, I put a catalyst and seven forma into my Dex Sybaris, and now it's a pretty decent weapon. Not one I use regularly, but I do like it.  Stories like that one seem to be fairly rare, though.

Players want Riven mods for the weapons they already like. Not only do those weapons have stats that are good to begin with, but they have familiar playstyles and in most cases have already had several forma and an Orokin catalyst inserted.  With a limit of 15 Riven mods, it's extremely unlikely a player will rebuild a weapon they mastered and sold just because they received a Riven mod for that weapon. Instead they will just be disappointed and annoyed that their Riven mod was for something that is useless to them.

 

Changes to help fulfill Riven mods fulfill their stated purpose: (Some of which rely on each other to make the changes viable. These are meant to be a group, not individual suggestions that would each help.)

Remove weapon specificity from Riven mods. Rifle riven mods should be able to be installed in any rifle.
This removes one of the layers of RNG, making the system much simpler and easier to use. It would prevent players from being upset about getting mods for useless weapons and it would also remove the annoyance of getting traits that don't matter to a particular weapon.

Have the Riven mod's traits affect the cost of using it. A flat 18 points for every Riven mod makes no sense. Each positive trait should add to the cost and each negative trait should reduce it.
I realize this would take effort, but it makes sense. A mod that grants higher damage, higher critical chance, higher critical damage, and multishot should be prohibitively expensive to install. A mod that grants ice damage, less recoil, and less damage to infested should not. Obviously each trait couldn't be assigned a whole number of points, so partial points and rounding would be necessary.

Increase the cost of rerolling Riven mods.
This is to balance having every riven be able to applied to every weapon of the same type. Rerolling them repeatedly should be as expensive or even more expensive than it was when the mods first came out.

Make stronger Riven disposition reduce negative traits and lower the cost of installing them.
Currently, stronger Riven disposition actually makes negative traits even worse. Since the idea is to actually use these in weapons that aren't used as often, the reverse should be true. It also makes sense to reduce the overall cost of installing them in these weapons so that better Riven mods can be used in weaker weapons.

Limit the worst negative traits to lower numbers.
No one will use a mod that gives -116% damage. It guarantees the mod will be rerolled and is frustrating. The idea is to create interesting mods that may be used despite the negatives, not to make them completely unusable.

Remove randomness between two rolls of the same trait.
It's unnecessary RNG and increases the amount of stored data for each Riven mod. It may add uniqueness but it wouldn't work well with assigning point costs to the mods based on their traits.

Have traits that grant base damage types (puncture/impact/slash) add it as a percentage of base damage instead of a percentage of base damage type.
It may seem unnecessary since I'm suggesting Riven mods not have an associated weapon, but this would add customizability. If players want their Amprex to deal impact damage along with electricity, it would be nice to give them a way to do it.

Additions to the pool of possible weapon traits:
Radiation, Magnetic, Viral, Corrosive, Explosive, and Gas damage
Electric, Cold, Heat, and Toxin damage that does not combine with other elements - allowing players to create weapons that deal both heat and cold damage, for example.
Other effects like explosion range, beam range, less self damage - if any such traits are rolled the mod is flagged as being for a particular weapon type and conflicting types are excluded from the rest of the traits on the mod. (That is, a mod could not have both beam range and explosion range on it, but it could have explosion range and lower self damage.)

[Zanchak]

I don't understand the whole "less used weapons" thing - when I see rivens for tonkor.. and simulor.. floating around. Really? They are "less used weapons" are they?

I'd of preferred if you just fixed the "less used weapons" rather than have to deal with grinding then cycling (which has become an addiction for some, probably its intent) for a NEGATIVE value within a mod, which we know is always going to happen. I dislike negative values in corrupted mods and now people are actively gambling on mods and being "rewarded" with it. Blind much? Next addition - kuva rehab centres?

[Lyravain]

I got a Riven with the challenge of 'Scan 1 Simaris target, without traps or abilities, using a Hobbled Key, without taking damage'.

The first three parts are feasible enough, but that 'without taking damage', is devastating. ANYTHING counts as damage- environment, barrels, enemy auras everything. Would it be possible to change the challenge on this to something less absurd and painful?

[Madway7]

7 minutes ago, Lyravain said:

I got a Riven with the challenge of 'Scan 1 Simaris target, without traps or abilities, using a Hobbled Key, without taking damage'.

The first three parts are feasible enough, but that 'without taking damage', is devastating. ANYTHING counts as damage- environment, barrels, enemy auras everything. Would it be possible to change the challenge on this to something less absurd and painful?

Damage to Iron Skin or Warding Halo still doesn't count as "damage". 

Also damage to allies doesn't count, they still have to abidy by the no traps and abilities near the target rule though. And you don't have to scan the target, you just have to be in the mission from what I've heard.

Tested Iron Skin with a challenge of "Complete a level 30 exterminate without taking any damage alone"

Though I did hear that having active abilities near the target fails the challenge now, but I haven't had the chance to test that.

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by Madway7