[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 2!

[Neear]

3 hours ago, Sebastianx said:

The Riven mod stats vary wildly, so it has nothing to do with mandatory mods such as Serration and Split chamber, reason why those 2 will get removed and Riven Mods get to stay. It's not like every Riven mod has the exact same stats and in every build it's mandatory to use that EXACT riven mod like it is with Serration/Split chamber.

DE wanted to get rid of the mods people always use being Serration and Split  Chamber yes but now with the Riven mods there will be people constantly looking for the base damage increase and even rerolling to aquire these mods and may even see them as mandatory just like Serration and Split Chamber. If DE decides to remove Serration and Split Chamber I don't see why the base damage increase Riven mods should stay.

People may argue its to make underpowered weapons useful but a mod shouldn't be needed as mandatory to make a weapon useful just buff the stats to get it out of mediocre area of the arsenal and nerf the meta weapons to provide players with a larger choice on the huge pool of weapons we have currently.

[Very_Melon]

The increasing cost to re-roll needs to go.

[Soulrift]

14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Some of this Dev Workshop will be a continuation from Part 1 (https://forums.warframe.com/topic/719453-spoiler-dev-workshop-new-mods/), but the rest will cover some more clear changes coming to Riven Mods.

Part 1 Primer: Riven Disposition.
You may recall we talked about 'Riven Disposition' on Monday. Here's the repeated information in a nutshell: 

- 'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.
- This modification will also affect existing Riven Mods to reflect our desire to give new life to ‘discarded’ weapons in a unique way, and not increase the power of the top tier ones.
- Prepare to see a difference in stats of existing Riven Mods in an upcoming hotfix.

 

I'm not sure how disposition is calculated, but if it based on stats like "hours of weapon used" it should also take Mastery Rank into consideration.

For example, my first Riven mod was for the Braton, a weapon that many players start with and quickly discard. However, because of its place as a starting weapon and that players will probably use it well after getting it to 30 until they get all the components and resources for other weapons to build their upgrade, I can see why it would have disproportionately high usage states.

But I'm sure the usage for the Braton for MR10+ players is going to be at or near zero. Even the Braton Prime or Braton Vandal variant doesn't have much value compared to other hitscan rifles like the Soma Prime. Therefore, I think the Mastery Rank requirement on a Riven mod (mine came up MR11) should only look at usage for that weapon type at that Mastery Rank and higher when calculating the power of that particular disposition.

Because, frankly, a mod with +2.3% fire damage, +4.5% fire rate and and other <5% stats isn't going to make me pick up a Braton. You've gotta put the minimum on Rivens way up there in line with other maxed out mods if you're going to make us pick up weapons that are inherently orders of magnitude worse than other choices in the game.

[marelooke]

13 hours ago, DarkOvion said:

Ahem:

Digital Extremes are referring to the Riven Mods as an 'end game option'.

But as you point out - there isn't an end game, just more grind. That is your 'reward' for getting to MR21/22.

It contradicts the entire reasoning of "trying to make underpowered weapons viable" as well. Making the Miter a somewhat viable weapon is an end-game option? Really? Oh, but only when you have a lucky roll on the stats, assuming you roll a Riven mod for the Miter to begin with, *if* you get a Riven mod at all...

And I'm sure that by plunking 7 Forma (randomly chosen number) into them most weapons can already be made viable. Hell, there's a video on youtube where a guy makes the Lato "viable" against lvl100 enemies (needs 4xCP to deal with armor tho). Lots of people just flock to "meta" weapons out of pure lazyness and nothing, short of slowing down progression, will fix that as it's an attitude problem (as I've stated elsewhere before)

Oh, and explain what the point of Syndicate mods was then? Weren't those supposed to make "underused weapons" viable? Guess they weren't traded enough...

[greymaniac]

The reduced reroll costs are a big step into the right direction. Now, if there was an option to lock a stat we already like.. perhaps for a kuva cost as well? It would allow us to lessen the RNG factor.

[HomShaBom]

There's nothing that makes me want to put down a game more than knowing the fact that there's absolutely nothing that I can do as a player to match the power of another player. Sure it may take a lot of time and a lot of farming and I may never actually catch up to the high end people, but at least there was a path to get there. Keep farming mods and resources and it is at least conceivable that I could catch up to people.

With the addition of Riven Mods, that's no longer possible. I will always be weaker than other people and there's nothing I can do about it.

I'll have to see how these changes work out, but it sounds like this is still going to be a problem, just maybe not quite as bad as it currently is.

I don't mean this as a threat that I will stop playing. I'm just saying that systems like this are very discouraging to me, and I know I'm not alone. I just don't think I have the will to continue investing my time into something that will never reward me for it.

Edited November 17, 2016 by HomShaBom

[Shiichibukai]

DOesnt mean he cant post on there does it? Soooooooooooooooooooooooo yeah

[Shockwave-]

3 hours ago, Sebastianx said:

The Riven mod stats vary wildly, so it has nothing to do with mandatory mods such as Serration and Split chamber, reason why those 2 will get removed and Riven Mods get to stay. It's not like every Riven mod has the exact same stats and in every build it's mandatory to use that EXACT riven mod like it is with Serration/Split chamber.

But if you want to use any of the non meta weapons, the riven mod for that weapon IS mandatory. DE said so. Instead of buffing the weapon and leaving you free to mod it with 8 mod slots, they just handed you a mandatory mod. You must use that Riven mod to make that old weapon good enough. And for each weapon there is likely only 1 thing that will make it good enough (Crit, base damage,etc). So for X weapon you will a Riven mod that has high modifiers for 1 or 2 things. If you don't have that mandatory mod the weapon won't be useful.

[Khlamydia]

14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Part 1 Primer: Riven Disposition.
You may recall we talked about 'Riven Disposition' on Monday. Here's the repeated information in a nutshell: 

- 'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.
- This modification will also affect existing Riven Mods to reflect our desire to give new life to ‘discarded’ weapons in a unique way, and not increase the power of the top tier ones.
- Prepare to see a difference in stats of existing Riven Mods in an upcoming hotfix.

This means that existing and future Rivens will have stats that skew based on a given weapon.  

What changes are coming soon?
The following changes are coming soon:
- Kuva Cycling costs have been reduced significantly.

After:
"..."
Cycle 8: 2750
Cycle 9: 3200
Cycle 10: 3600

- Accessing Kuva Siphons is being experimented with to not be a random chance in a tileset, but rather a guaranteed spawn on planets when the Fortress is in the vicinity (like Fomorians and Negators) with a possible cooldown. To be determined!

Ok a few things...

1. 'Disposition' on high tier weapons to level the playing field of old weapons with meta weapons. I hope that doesn't mean making Riven's essentially useless for high tier weapons where that weapon slot is already competing with a standard elemental damage mod. My concern is if you make them too weak they would never get used in the first place for high end missions. With enemy armor scaling infinitely still being a thing and the return of endless missions with level 200+ enemies to fight when relic farming, giving top tier weapons even more damage via Riven mods shouldn't be seen by development as a bad thing. Unless you want the enemies to be bullet sponges like we're all playing a fancy version of Borderlands. I'm sure some are thinking "okay but someday look Damage 3.0 will fix all that", Sure maybe in 4-9 years when its finally ready then great, but that doesn't help the players now. I understand the desire to make Riven's more reasonable to give old weapons a chance to shine, just don't go so far as to make Riven's a downgrade or a sidegrade for meta weapons compared to say a 90% element mod that would normally go in that slot.

A better system for all of this would simply be a complete weapon pass on each of the stats for ALL low tier weaponry. Our old weapons need a stat upgrade, which has to include a base damage upgrade and perhaps more mastery rank associated with them to reflect that. Using Riven's to try and band-aid their low tier problems with a single fancy mod isn't healthy for getting these old weapons back into the pool of used equipment, they need real stats that can compete with the the real enemies players face. You can put +300% damage on a Riven Gram mod, but it's still not going to make us use the Gram because at the end of the day it's still the Gram. If you find it difficult to know what needs balancing and where the problems exist.. here is a document that some players made describing why we use what we use in the Meta, and why we see the low tier gear as low tier: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DdsYLFaWL58_mQeKewm_ejCQdfXM7hSVx9o4PbZ-yD8/edit#gid=0 It's not perfect and there's a bit of player personal opinion thrown in here and there, but perhaps its a good starting guidebook for DE to do some reworks.

2. Kuva Cycling costs, Could we get a cap on how high this number can get maximum? Just like a bar that says: "Ok, after X number of cycles we wont charge you more then this final number" to keep going? Just a small quality of life request.

3. The Kuva Fortress spawning invasions near planets where a fortress is in the vicinity... This is a poor idea, Sure we all get the lore reason for wanting this type of change, but the nice thing about keeping the spawn location in a central location (Rusalka, Sedna) is that players know where to go to find it, and more to the point if its in a single location it greatly increases the number of pick up groups for casual farming. (You click the node by yourself, hey cool joining squad now...) The mechanics of farming Kuva are basically designed for group play, it CAN be done solo but it can be very aggravating to do all the steps needed by yourself and there are a lot of steps to do if your alone. If you make the spawn location move all over the map constantly, then ultimately the result will be players will be farming it solo instead of in groups because people wont know what specific node to goto to farm it. It would be like if old Draco moved every 20 minutes to a new random spawn location on a new planet in the Starchart with a new node name... It wouldn't be Draco anymore because no one could find it at a casual glance. It would mean that the only way to farm it would be to have a premade group of friends/guildmates or spam the lfg with "LF Kuva Farm invite plz (I've been waiting 15 minutes in chat typing this)" and that lfg channel already has enough text spam as it is. Perhaps what the game needs is an LFG interface for creating groups to address this? Moving on...

4. A cooldown? Getting Kuva is already grindy enough with thousands in costs for crafting weapons and cycling mods repeatedly as it is, please don't ADD to that wait with cooldowns which make it take even longer. You give everything in the game cooldowns already: Sorties have cooldowns, Syndicates missions have cooldowns, Sculpture farming has cooldowns, Mastery Tests have a cooldown, Synthesis points have a cooldown, Syndicate points themselves have another cooldown, Focus points have a cooldown, Conclave has a cooldown, Trial rewards have cooldowns.... Can we get something to do at endgame that doesn't have another cooldown tied to it please? It would be nice yknow? Sometimes I feel like we are all playing "Cooldown Simulator: The Game"

A final thought, there has been a very vocal and very talkative group on these forums over the past week decrying randomness itself as bad, the doom of the end times appearing and massive players leaving the game, and Riven power creep appearing as if the game hasn't always already had that in the form of new weapons and frames being added. I ask that you please take all of those complaints in with a grain of perspective, not all of your players are using these forums and the vocal minority generally tends to be by definition... a minority of the overall group. They don't speak for all of us, some of us happen to like the new systems and the new riven mods exactly how they are right now...

[Shockwave-]

Part 1 Primer: Riven Disposition.
You may recall we talked about 'Riven Disposition' on Monday. Here's the repeated information in a nutshell: 

- 'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.

 

Could DE clarify what they mean by "less used"  weapons. I assume that is community-wide use and not individual use, but it could be the other way around.

[xXKhyXx]

Is "Complete a level 30 Exterminate without being detected/seen" one of the ridiculous challenges that's being removed? If so, great, because my first Riven mod is one that I'm not likely to unveil any time soon.

[greymaniac]

12 minutes ago, Khlamydia said:

The Kuva Fortress spawning invasions near planets where a fortress is in the vicinity... This is a poor idea, Sure we all get the lore reason for wanting this type of change, but the nice thing about keeping the spawn location in a central location (Rusalka, Sedna) is that players know where to go to find it, and more to the point if its in a single location it greatly increases the number of pick up groups for casual farming. (You click the node by yourself, hey cool joining squad now...) The mechanics of farming Kuva are basically designed for group play, it CAN be done solo but it can be very aggravating to do all the steps needed by yourself and there are a lot of steps to do if your alone. If you make the spawn location move all over the map constantly, then ultimately the result will be players will be farming it solo instead of in groups because people wont know what specific node to goto to farm it. It would be like if old Draco moved every 20 minutes to a new random spawn location on a new planet in the Starchart with a new node name... It wouldn't be Draco anymore because no one could find it at a casual glance. It would mean that the only way to farm it would be to have a premade group of friends/guildmates or spam the lfg with "LF Kuva Farm invite plz (I've been waiting 15 minutes in chat typing this)" and that lfg channel already has enough text spam as it is. Perhaps what the game needs is an LFG interface for creating groups to address this? Moving on...

Just commenting on this one long paragraph... really? Would you really want to spend the entirety of your kuva farm in a single mission node? Apart from that, the Kuva Fortress tileset is right now largely unused after players have completed the nodes and the quest itself (I imagine, since there's no guaranteed kuva there)

[Machine_Head]

4 hours ago, BlurryKnyght said:

Just do the sortie solo bruh

Alas im not very good despite playing since patch 6

[SuspiciousCrow]

This is the very reason why Warframe is my favorite game,
and DE is the standard I compare all other developers to.

I absolutely love everything I just read.

[Khlamydia]

19 minutes ago, xXKhyXx said:

Is "Complete a level 30 Exterminate without being detected/seen" one of the ridiculous challenges that's being removed? If so, great, because my first Riven mod is one that I'm not likely to unveil any time soon.

Ivara or Loki, get a dagger and covert lethality, pick any level 30+ exterminate in the game, stab everyone in the butt while invisible. Ta da!

Seriously this is the easiest challenge out of all of them.

[Czin]

Even with these changes, we should be able to choose which weapon our Veiled mods bind to, we should be able to farm veiled mods, and stat gains should be normalized per weapon!

[Dioxety]

15 hours ago, Machine_Head said:

excellent im looking forward to these changes but will you enable another way for riven mods to be obtained outside sorties.

as some of us (myself included) cant get a good team for sorties

 

Yes please, 7th day of sorties since TWW release and I have got gotten 2k endo every time. It's seriously a joke.

[Amazerath]

14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

While it may pre-date many accounts, Warframe already had RNG Mods in the game. In fact RNG Mods used to be the only type of Mod you could find for Upgrading your gear. We switched to a static Mod system in Update 7, and now 12 Major Updates later we are revisiting the concept with completely different intentions: an End-Game option rather than the only path. 

Sorry, but that fact is irrelevant.

1) You're talking about a feature the game had around four years ago. Warframe was basically a different game back then so I don't even understand why mention this. Today's Warframe is not the Warframe of four years ago and you guys know this.

2) Riven mods are not going to give us end-game options because end-game only means two things: maximum damage (which is a stat) and crowd-control (which is not a stat). Seeing how riven mods only give us stats, that means the best they can do is increase damage. They don't offer anything new. So we're going to continue picking whichever weapon deals the most damage and use it repeatedly. Nothing is going to change!

 

The mod system itself is what's limiting our options. We're using a system that mimics the standard RPG inventory system. But instead of having dedicated slots for things like helmets, boots and gloves the mod system allows us to equip eight different swords (damage mods) and use them all simultaneously! So unless you guys start chopping off some of our arms, I don't see how a brand new magical sword is going to revolutionize our way of equipping ourselves.

We need dedicated slots or at least some manner of restrictions. Naturally, that also means changing a bunch of other things and systems. But how else do you expect the game to evolve? We can't keep relying on this outdated version of mod system and expect it to suit us until the end of time.

[HomShaBom]

17 minutes ago, Dioxety said:

Yes please, 7th day of sorties since TWW release and I have got gotten 2k endo every time. It's seriously a joke.

Same. i've gotten nothing but 2k endo every time I finish my sorties.

[democrator]

I am not sure if Riven Disposition take into account sentinel weapon which need a huge buff compared to general primaries.

Maybe if it doesn't, atleast please re-roll the current sentinel weapon rivens to be non-sentinel. Its really disappointing to finally get a riven in the sortie and then it turns out to be vulkok :(

[Sasquatchias]

These changes (to me) are a big step in the right direction concerning Riven Mods (outside of their complete removal), but I do sort of want more information about the details of how they'll balance out Riven mods for already top-tier weapons that really don't need things like more critical damage, critical chance, and base damage on a single mod when with separate mods containing those stats they already obliterate most content.

[CrudShuzKong]

Can we please reroll what weapon the mod attaches to as well? I really dont enjoy the fact that im stuck with a riven mod for the fricken vulklok...

[kingfirejet]

It still seems like the end game is a Tonkor Riven Mod with + DMG + Multi-Shot + Status - Ammo. 

[ViaeFiend]

That is nice, changing things up so we use our less popular weapons. But for old players like me, our stats are really fudged up. My most used weapon is the Brakk, and up till recently I hadn't used it for what, maybe a year? or longer. There are others stats that do this as well. Being around all these years hasnt been nice on those aspects. So hopefully the riven mods arnt skewed on things like those. Maybe my luck has been crap since U7, but I'd like to think I'm not a conspiracy theorist on RNG haha! Atleast improvements are trying to be made, I have faith DE can get somewhere, satisfying for players. As well as having reward difficulty pay off. Which in Warframe is a hard aspect to include.

3 plus years and 2000 hours later, still no handspring drop. XD

[Ianrama]

Yeah... here are my 50c:

I do like the idea of the Riven mods in general, but many things are totally bugged. 
--> unveiling is kinda ok, if you clean it from the ridicules challenges and pls, +hobbled key is a tedious as hell objective... keep it rare as possible, because kill the fun. Really.
--> Specific for random weapon  - here is 50/50. If DE really want to make old weapons useful is better to make specific mods ONLY for them. Now i see it will be huge struggle to clean the randomize crap and make real buffs that will be useful for weapons and not ridicules (like having slash bonus for weapon that doesn't have such dmg).

--> Stat bonuses - really boring. I totally agree with Brozime - this is not fun at all. Give us some other changes like syndicates proc system with different effects - this WILL BE fun! And i really don't see how you can make the mods relevant for different weapons. If, after the fix,  mod for Soma will give you at max lvl +30% dmg, +25% Crit - 15% reload speed - will be a joke and obviously - you will never try it. And let say - mod for Furis gives you 100% dmg, +150% crit and + 25% clip size - will also not make the weapon good enough to use it on difficult missions. And sorry to repeat myself - but this is totally boring mod. Just sweet stats.
--> Kuva price - why do you even want to increase it? Let it hit a max at 1k+ and stay there... is enough tedious farm for 1k.

---

16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

RNG Mods in Warframe!?

We should certainly take some time to speak to the doom that RNG Mods being a sign of nefarious dealings. While it may pre-date many accounts, Warframe already had RNG Mods in the game. In fact RNG Mods used to be the only type of Mod you could find for Upgrading your gear. We switched to a static Mod system in Update 7, and now 12 Major Updates later we are revisiting the concept with completely different intentions: an End-Game option rather than the only path. 

 

Well - no. RNG generated mods for end-game? While most if not all of the game is based on static mod system and builds, what will difference my weapon and frame in the later game will be just some random luck chance? That is ridicules though. Until now, i can have identical build with any other player that have the same equipment as mine - what difference is from one another is our skill, not the stats.... And now you think to change that. Hell no!

Also that:
 

Quote

Mjr_116 said:

With the threats of removing mandatory mods and a mysterious "Damage 3.0" system happening the Riven mod system really, REALLY appears to be a beta test, the old RNG mod system was terrible for game balance and was removed for a reason, and it should really stay gone.