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[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 2!


[DE]Rebecca
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16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Accessing Kuva Siphons is being experimented with to not be a random chance in a tileset, but rather a guaranteed spawn on planets when the Fortress is in the vicinity (like Fomorians and Negators) with a possible cooldown. To be determined!

Can you just make kuva a rare resource on fortress and nearby planets, adjust prices accordingly, and call it a day? And for these enjoying 'throw potato at kuva' minigame, each of four clouds will drop one kuva.

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Yeah... here are my 50c:

I do like the idea of the Riven mods in general, but many things are totally bugged. 
--> unveiling is kinda ok, if you clean it from the ridicules challenges and pls, +hobbled key is a tedious as hell objective... keep it rare as possible, because kill the fun. Really.
--> Specific for random weapon  - here is 50/50. If DE really want to make old weapons useful is better to make specific mods ONLY for them. Now i see it will be huge struggle to clean the randomize crap and make real buffs that will be useful for weapons and not ridicules (like having slash bonus for weapon that doesn't have such dmg).

--> Stat bonuses - really boring. I totally agree with Brozime - this is not fun at all. Give us some other changes like syndicates proc system with different effects - this WILL BE fun! And i really don't see how you can make the mods relevant for different weapons. If, after the fix,  mod for Soma will give you at max lvl +30% dmg, +25% Crit - 15% reload speed - will be a joke and obviously - you will never try it. And let say - mod for Furis gives you 100% dmg, +150% crit and + 25% clip size - will also not make the weapon good enough to use it on difficult missions. And sorry to repeat myself - but this is totally boring mod. Just sweet stats.
--> Kuva price - why do you even want to increase it? Let it hit a max at 1k+ and stay there... is enough tedious farm for 1k.

---

15 hours ago, Mjr_116 said:

With the threats of removing mandatory mods and a mysterious "Damage 3.0" system happening the Riven mod system really, REALLY appears to be a beta test, the old RNG mod system was terrible for game balance and was removed for a reason, and it should really stay gone.  

 

Also that:
 

Quote

democrator said:

am not sure if Riven Disposition take into account sentinel weapon which need a huge buff compared to general primaries.

Maybe if it doesn't, atleast please re-roll the current sentinel weapon rivens to be non-sentinel. Its really disappointing to finally get a riven in the sortie and then it turns out to be vulkok :(

 

Edited by Ianrama
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16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Yup! We want to get it better set up on Rifles first before we expand, which is why they have had such a limited release so far.

"Limited release" is the word. Can't get anything else than 2k endo in Sorties. I have this feeling I'm so rewarded for my bravery :facepalm:

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It’s great to see that you are aware of the community concerns and you choose to be open and communicative instead of keeping radio silence and hoping the problem goes away before players do, like some other studios, and thank you for that. All the polish and improvements are good and very welcome, and kudos for doing them. That said, in my opinion, the changes described here are simply not good enough, do not go far enough, and in general miss the forest in favor of the tree.

To be blunt, this is like your house being on fire and you concentrating on fixing that leaky pipe in the roof. I will comment on some of the propositions from this and the previous post one by one. Keep in mind this is not a hate post, I like to think that we are both (as in the community and the developers) on the same side trying to get the game to be both economically viable and at its best possible state. With that in mind I will be straight and honest, as I believe this is the most useful feedback I can possibly provide.

 

Riven Disposition

So, how will this scale as time goes on? Braton for example I think used to be considered a top tier weapon. Now its’s mediocre. The game evolves and some weapons are simply outdated. So, what happens when a more powerful weapon exceeds today’s Soma or Simulor in the niches? What happens if damage changes negatively affect some of these weapons? Will these weapons gain better riven mods to make up for the changes? And will that affect existing or only new riven mods fitted for those weapons.

In the opposite scenario, what happens if a year from now DE releases e.g.  Paracyst [Event], which is a viable weapon? Will Paracyst riven mods be nerfed, hurting the still underpowered original too? What will then happen to people that based their builds on the original and don’t have/ don’t want to re-obtain and forma the new version? Or if not, won’t the event version be overpowered with existing riven mods? Or will the riven mods for Paracyst and Paracyst [event] be separate, making it even more impossible to get one for the weapon you like without paying (not that honestly I feel I have considerable hopes of getting a good riven for an underpowered weapon I love to play before natural causes get me).

This also still does not solve the problem, that lucky draws for Soma and Tonkor are still lucky draws for Soma and Tonkor. Riven Tonkor will be less game breaking than current Riven Tonkor but it will still outclass non-Riven Tonkor (and probably every other weapon), while other players have almost no hope of getting the same power without paying thousands in plat or winning a lottery. For me at least, this is not nearly an acceptable situation.

 

Revisit old weapons

So, if I want to use for example, the Paracyst? Instead of building and using it like any other weapon, I have to play sorites everyday (which not all of us enjoy that much doing, at least not all the time), hope that I don’t get 2000 endo (unlikely), hope that I get a challenge that I can complete (maybe yes, maybe not), hope that the mod is for the weapon I love (very, very unlikely, no matter what you do, I won’t use the burston or the harpak, even if they were the most OP weapon in the game, I don’t like them), and finally hope that the stats benefit the weapon and are decent.

Take also into consideration that every one of these phases can vary in length from first try to endless as your game uses a free-for-all unrestricted RNG system without any kind of failsafe (like increased chance to get a certain rare reward if you haven’t got it in an extra-ordinary amount of time/ number of attempts or the so called “pity timers”).

At this point I might as well play at Vegas and hope to get rich enough to acquire DE from the parent company and buff all the weapons I like in the source code with my own hands, sounds barely less likely to happen than DE’s proposed solution (yes, not really, this is a joke, but I think it gets the point across).

You are also pushing all non-endgame players into the meta weapons, as to make anything else viable they must first get to the endgame, and second grind their teeth out until they get RNG-Blessed, if they ever do. Highly ironically to get these mods, you have to first grind endlessly through 100+ level missions which is exactly the kind of content that mandates these multi-forma meta weapons. Am I the only one to whom that sounds… kind of backwards? I find this almost a paradox. So, the end-game is making underpowered weapons viable (possible maybe at some point with enough luck) through grinding until you can’t take anymore with the meta weapons/frames? Ugh…? Come again please?

I believe this will both turn away new and “veteran” players alike. New players because they learn they can’t make their favorite competitive with the other weapons available/used by other players without “completing” the game, grinding like their life depends on it and possibly, maybe, eventually getting RNG-Blessed, and veterans as the extreme grinding, RNG reliance and frustrating gameplay will eventually lead to burn-out.

The only way to increase the burn-out territory is to make the carrot shinier by making the mods OP, making the mods OP discourages players who get burnt out of the system anyway due to RNG, frustration or both and new players by making them feel locked out, weaker than squad mates who are either RNG-Blessed or whales.

If instead you make the mods weaker, then there is not enough incentive to go through the torturous grind and extreme frustration to get them. As I see it,there is literally no way you can win here.

 

Give new life to the Arsenal in a non-static way

This sound like a cool goal in theory, but I fail to find anyway that it corresponds to what riven mods do. They do not add new quirks or traits to weapons they simply buff stats even more than existing, non-RNG, available eventually to everyone mods already do. These are just more stats. Exactly what existing mods offer, exactly what a buff would address. I simply do not “get”, so to say, this argument.

 

Concluding

Finally, and most importantly, I may be missing something, but in no way can I see how this is a better solution and/or use of development resources than simply buffing the stats that render those underpowered weapons underpowered in the first place, which would be more effective, simpler, fairer, more accessible, would not upset gameplay and balance and generally be a much, much more beneficial solution all around. Please do not forget that the obvious way is usually the best way.

The only thing this system gains in return for its innate and huge drawbacks in an insanely deep, for many possibly bottomless pit of time and/or plat sink. Grind is good up to a level. When you reach the top of the curve the results begin to reverse, at least in my opinion, this system if far past that point. I am willing to grind, and I am willing to pay too, as my account can tell. It’s logical, expected and fair. But, at least in my opinion, this is past the breaking point on these counts.

Personally, I expect this will lead to eventual burn out of experienced players, turn away new players, and possibly just make some people (like probably me for example) just give up on the game, even if that is sad and painful to them. The benefit and cost ratio here just seems way off. Thank you for reading and considering.

Edited by AscendingDusk
Improved formatting
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17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

What changes are coming soon?
The following changes are coming soon:

- You will only have to Unveil a Riven Mod one time: on first discovery.
- When Cycling a Riven with Kuva, you can now choose to "Accept" or "Decline" a Cycle result.
- Kuva Cycling costs have been reduced significantly.

Nice but questions:

Any chance of us getting a refund of the difference/reset of cycle count for the cycles already done?

Does a declined cycle count towards the price increase?

 

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17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

- When Cycling a Riven with Kuva, you can now choose to "Accept" or "Decline" a Cycle result.

Will this be for some of the cycled traits or all of them?

Meaning can we pick what we keep each roll.

 

Also, if we Roll and mod for 900 then decide not to keep that roll "Decline", does that count as first roll and the price goes up?

 

Overall i really like this change. I made a post in feedback. It has to do with mod progression. 

Like Riven mods get better the more you use the weapon they are equipped to. I would really like mods like this, it rewards you for actually using the weapon.

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17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

RNG Mods in Warframe!?
We should certainly take some time to speak to the doom that RNG Mods being a sign of nefarious dealings. While it may pre-date many accounts, Warframe already had RNG Mods in the game. In fact RNG Mods used to be the only type of Mod you could find for Upgrading your gear. We switched to a static Mod system in Update 7, and now 12 Major Updates later we are revisiting the concept with completely different intentions: an End-Game option rather than the only path.

Seriously... Can't you think about anything other than RNG ? The game is oversaturated by RNG. I don't get why you're revisiting a flawed and frustrating concept. It just sounds like a huge lack of inventiveness.

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In the words of Jontron, "I have a couple of questions."

1. Would this at all affect the Braton series?
The braton series amongst players is the most well known and almost always used weapons when starting warframe. I love the Braton, specifically the Braton Prime. However due to the disposition, I think the braton may take a hit due to "beginner friendly use", my second question to this is "Will this be based around Mastery Ranking on weapons?" For the Braton, you can use it whenever (MR 0) so would it get a more buffs?

2. If the Kuva Fortress is nearby planets that ARE NOT near Grineer planets, will they show up on Corpus maps?

3. Is it possible to just ADD stats instead of Percentages?
I ask this because of special cases of insanely low critical chance on weapons like Miter, Panthera, and any weapon that has less than 10% Critical Chance. Because currently, the Riven system is mostly multiplicative bonuses and If i get a Miter with a 190% Crit Chance it'd just be: 0 x 1.9 = 0. I'd say to retweak the Critical Chance to be additive with lower numbers (10%-50% additive) so that all weapons are crit viable...on the subject of viability...

4.Can you please make status weapons procs scale upon level?
I mean Crit is king in warframe because the critical damage scales but not status and the only was to take status to endgame is a corrosive and viral build. also....

5. Will we be seeing other buffs within the Riven System?

 

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46 minutes ago, AscendingDusk said:

In the opposite scenario, what happens if a year from now DE releases e.g.  Paracyst [Event], which is a viable weapon? Will Paracyst riven mods be nerfed, hurting the still underpowered original too? What will then happen to people that based their builds on the original and don’t have/ don’t want to re-obtain and forma the new version? Or if not, won’t the event version be overpowered with existing riven mods? Or will the riven mods for Paracyst and Paracyst [event] be separate, making it even more impossible to get one for the weapon you like without paying (not that honestly I feel I have considerable hopes of getting a good riven for an underpowered weapon I love to play before natural causes get me).

I sincerely think that DE will know not to make the newer weapons any different. In fact i think the Riven mods are a great incentive for DE to make  side-grades instead of upgrades. Also surprisingly there has not been an event infested weapon. I do however agree that we should allow to reroll the weapon but more in favor for lesser weapons (an example being MR 0 weapons have a more likely chance to be rerolled instead of let's say MR6 weapons; i dunno).

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18 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Take the Daikyu for example. The greatest rae damage of all bows, outstanding status chance... But it's subpar at best.

The biggest drawbacks of the Daikyu (there's a pun for you) is, among other things... the draw time. The Daikyu has the longest charge time of all bows... this is made worse by the fact that, unlike other bows, the Daikyu can't even keep that draw over time... I could hold the draw on a Paris Prime from mission start to mission end with no issue... Daikyu loses the draw charge after what seems like only 3 seconds.

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17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

RNG Mods in Warframe!?
We should certainly take some time to speak to the doom that RNG Mods being a sign of nefarious dealings. While it may pre-date many accounts, Warframe already had RNG Mods in the game. In fact RNG Mods used to be the only type of Mod you could find for Upgrading your gear. We switched to a static Mod system in Update 7, and now 12 Major Updates later we are revisiting the concept with completely different intentions: an End-Game option rather than the only path. 

I was there, I remember those. And the Credit cost for socketing/swapping in a new one each time. There are some major differences between now and then:

  • Credit cost was static, unlike Riven costs to cycling.
  • Individual mods were limited to 1 or 2 related stats.
  • Increases from found "upgrades" were relatively small, making them feel less "critical" to have the absolute best.
  • You could have an infinite (to system limitations) storage of them.

This meant that grinding for upgrades was a slow, deliberate, and as it comes process. Which is ideal for the "End Game" state of casually lethal high level play. Getting a better Mod for your current build was a neat thing you'd stumble across over time. You'd even begin collecting better Mods that would work on different weapons and builds. The unlimited* storage space encouraged collecting of strange or other wise useless at the time Mods.

Riven's don't really do any of this. The process is a 1 possibly (not assured) daily random acquisition. They can't even be scrapped/sold for anything valuable, and the scarcity of their acquisition makes just selling them for Credits or mashed into Endo feel wasteful. The limited storage space doesn't lend itself to keeping/using "strange" or non-ideal rolls.

Hopefully the Riven Cycling costs will be capped at that 10, 3600 Kuva cost. So that cycles 10+ will be 3600 Kuva each Frankly I'd rather see see a combined static cap of Kuva and Credits and/or other Resources. Warframe still has a massive Resource Sink issue. Cycling and controlling stats on Kuvas in various way would have been one way to do that. This includes changing out the weapon roll. The reason to get other resources involved is to bring back that casual over time iteration, in keeping with....

18 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

When Cycling a Riven with Kuva, you can now choose to "Accept" or "Decline" a Cycle result.

This, which is very much like the process of getting those old mods. If you pick up a better one, you keep it and sell of the other. If its worse you sell off the "new" mod. The "Accept/Decline" on Rivens is basically that process, but without the selling step.

However the storage limit will remains an issue. Without the Storage Limit, and a way to Reroll or Adjust the weapon, would allow you to get much more specific with which weapon gets rolled. For example rolling an MK-1 Braton instead of a Braton or Braton Prime. This also allows you to better control stat generation for "top tier" weapons and "discarded" weapons.

This process of cycling Weapon could be a multi-layer resource sink. Moving Up and Down both costs. Keeping it in a "Family" (bratons) costs less, switching families costs more. Fully switching categories (rifle to shotgun to secondary) even more. You could even look at Launcher vs Automatic vs Semi-auto.

Resources tapped could include "Star Chart" resources, Ayatan Stars/Endo, and for sure Credits. Maybe even base them on the resource costs of building the weapon in the first place. Use Ducats for "prime" items. Baro or a new Riven Smith could start offering the templates (for Ducats) to swap Weapon/Class/Type.

Unlimit the storage. Turn Weapon type and stat cycling into a better resource sink (of static capped values, not ever increasing). Resources are the functional amalgamation of "casually playing until you find that better mod", that get banked until they can be used. Let's finally have a reason to use them! 

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18 minutes ago, NinjaKitsune56 said:

The biggest drawbacks of the Daikyu (there's a pun for you) is, among other things... the draw time. The Daikyu has the longest charge time of all bows... this is made worse by the fact that, unlike other bows, the Daikyu can't even keep that draw over time... I could hold the draw on a Paris Prime from mission start to mission end with no issue... Daikyu loses the draw charge after what seems like only 3 seconds.

Agreed. But, honestly, it and its slow fire rate would be good counters if it had nice critical values (which make sense since it's a precision bow). It doesn't...

Honestly, I don't know what the hell DE was thinking when they made it

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6 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Agreed. But, honestly, it and its slow fire rate would be good counters if it had nice critical values (which make sense since it's a precision bow). It doesn't...

Honestly, I don't know what the hell DE was thinking when they made it

Probably the same thing they were thinking when they thought Riven mods would help balance the game....

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27 minutes ago, Dracario said:

I sincerely think that DE will know not to make the newer weapons any different. In fact i think the Riven mods are a great incentive for DE to make  side-grades instead of upgrades. Also surprisingly there has not been an event infested weapon. I do however agree that we should allow to reroll the weapon but more in favor for lesser weapons (an example being MR 0 weapons have a more likely chance to be rerolled instead of let's say MR6 weapons; i dunno).

It is probable you are correct. And in my opinion that would be a net loss, as event and prime weapons were great opportunities to rework old weapon designs and make them better. Of course, buffing the base version is always preferable, but at least event/prime/syndicate weapons both give everyone in the community an equal chance to get viable versions of fun but weak equipment without RNG and ridiculous grind levels, and in the same time DE can advertise this as new content. Everyone is happy, everyone wins.

Well, maybe except new players who missed their window, but even in this case it is easier to wait for the weapon to resurface on Barro or an invasion than hope for an elusive RNG-Bless that may never come, plus they will also be cheaper to trade for (as those weapons are still commodities, due to the combination of multiple sellers selling the exact same item and the assumption that supplies will be replenished when the item becomes available again).

Even for those new players these factors will in most cases keeps the price sane, unlike unique RNG mods, where the randomness of the scarcity and the uniqueness factor for each one will lead to useful mods reaching multiple thousands of plat prices). Additionally, most events are fun, they provide incentive to play more, and the reward is usually guaranteed to get with an acceptable level of grinding and not too much frustration if at all, unlike anything Riven related. This would be just one more loss of both fun and accessibility to good equipment for the game because of the horrible Riven system.

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Also the current stats aren't interesting they are simply buffs that we already have in combination.

 

Interesting stats-

Killed targets increased drop chance by x%

Damage to Target is leeched as health x%

Damage to target is leeched as shield x% (+ overshields)

Base Damage is converted to X% IPS/Elemental damage type and is increased by X%

Crits don't consume ammo

Headshots don't consume ammo

Killing enemy causes them to explode deailng x% of base health damage

Armor ignore by x%

Shield ignore by x%

Killing X targets causes Syndicate ____ blank proc

X% chance to Proc Y status

for non-hitscan: Flight Speed increased by X% (this one already exists just make it only for Non-hitscan weapons)

Has x% to release Radial damage of type Y for 30m scaled off of base damage

Status/Crit/Headshots disarm target for X seconds

Base Armor is destroyed by X per Y amount of damage done (I.E. deal 100 damage to remove 10 base armor from that enemy)

Base Health is removed by x per Y amount of damage done 

X Damage steals Y energy from target.

Weapon knocks back target by 2m

Weapon moves target forward  to tenno by 2m 

Weapon rag dolls target

Weapons has x% chance to Blind target

Weapon banishes target to the rift (limbo synergy)

 

 

 

Edited by 3thereal
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Ohh that's nice ^_^

Kuva farming is fine at the moment, perfect in fact.

Please consider applying  stat resets during trade on these mods if possible!

And also please buff status to be at the same level like critical, like u guys can make it in a way that first few second(depending on the speed of the weapon in case of melee , base speed>1.2=3 seconds,otherwise 5 seconds, and fire rate in case of primary/sec weapons) the status proc will deal 3x damage or something like that.While doing that ,add a status-speed mod similar to berserker if possible ty!

Edited by titan_sLAyer_
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2 minutes ago, titan_sLAyer_ said:

Ohh that's nice ^_^

Kuva farming is fine at the moment, perfect in fact.

Please consider applying  stat resets during trade on these mods if possible!

And also please buff status to be at the same level like critical, like u guys can make it in a way that first few second(depending on the speed of the weapon , base speed>1.2=3 seconds,otherwise 5 seconds) the status proc will deal 3x damage.While doing that ,add a status-speed mod similar to berserker if possible ty!

Status-speed mod would be good on melee.... but Riven mods are RIfles only ATM.

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3 hours ago, kingfirejet said:

It still seems like the end game is a Tonkor Riven Mod with + DMG + Multi-Shot + Status - Ammo. 

Nah end game is Tonkor with + Damage + Multishot + Crit Damage or +Damage +Crit Chance + Crit Damage

Edited by 3thereal
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19 hours ago, -CM-Liverslices said:

@[DE]Rebecca .....

And also, will there be a script that refunds Kuva to people who upgraded mods in the higher ranks? It's frustrating that I wasted so much Kuva rerolling 8 times to get stats that didn't involve +Max Ammo %

I basically came here to ask this. It doesn't seem like it'd be unreasonable to do so, just take a count of how many cycles we have on our given mods and refund kuva based on that. Doesn't fix that i sold some mods that i had cycled a bunch because i had given up and deemed them no longer worth my time and effort, this is just a personal problem though and would be more than happy enough with a refund to the mods i did end up keeping if that turns out to be the case.

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