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[DE]Rebecca

[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 2!

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Not to be rude, but the first riven mod that everyone gets, "simaris target, no damage, no abilities, no trap, + hobbled" is kinda (and i mean major) BS. seriously considering selling that mod without even bothering to unveil it.

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The ballad of the search for a viable Miter: or why we need a hard Cap on Kuva costs.

So let me dive into a rather odd tale, of two Twins, their shunned sameness, mirrored reflections. Sibling Miter Mods, one from War, another Sortie.

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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No Miter could love these Mods, for a Miter has fickle needs.

  1. Fire Rate (charge speed)
  2. Base or Slash Damage increase, to compensate for the lack of critical hits and a single projectile.
  3. Punch Through, to continue flight and maybe get extra value on multiple in-line targets.
  4. And Status Chance, for a bonus twist

The first two are essential to making the Miter compete with a Dread bow, which is oh so sweet. A Dread crit and swift charge, slashes past the Miter's feeble attack.

Dread does 200 Base (180 Slashing), Miter does 250 (225 Slash). But the Dread's charge rate 1 second. The Miter is 1.5 and is not a bow so it gets even less of Fire Rate increases. Then there is the Crit factor on the Dread, which combines into Red crits, with Headshots, and other Critical Bonus damage sources (like Volt Shields). Even just basically modded that can easily be x4.4 damage on crit (880 total). Even replacing the "crit" mods with raw elemental damage (two +90%) is only an extra 450 (700 total) for the Miter, and it still charges slower and is loud.

Status Duration is an interesting idea, but one ultimately futile with the current Player/Enemy dynamics of the massed horde shooter. You do not have 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10 seconds to wait for an enemy to finish dying. It's a nice additional, but on its own does not make a weapon suddenly viable.

These mods will need to be rolled and rolled, until at least one yields: +Fire Rate , +Base Damage or high +Slash. After that starts a search for +Punch Through or +Status. Anything else means the Miter is still trash.

Now I personally do not object too much to the time it will likely take to keep rolling for those results. Thats the kind of "End Game" twiddle your thumbs task that will come eventually. What I do object to is being locked into framing a single resource (Kuva) against 1 faction constantly to do it. This is Void Fatigue all over again. As I said before, this is very farming the more casual grind of Mods back in Update 7.

Now that lockout is by real world time. Just re-rolling these two mods to 10 (20 rolls, 22 total results) will take about 4.5 hours (600 kuva every 15 minutes, aka 600 per 3 missions run which seems to be about the spawn rate and a generous estimation of time). 

Now if I had only the 1 Miter mod, I'd have to make 21 rolls (because only 1 free result). This costs about 117,000 Kuva or ~13 hours of farming, one... single.. type... of... mission... faction... and... tile! Now I've played a lot of Warframe, just over 2100 hours since Braton Vandal Week back in February 2013. 13 hours of active play may not seem like much against that, but that 13 hours of play time I could be doing ANYTHING else. From getting that last Kavat (Smeeta type), tracking down a Rare Orokin container (never seen one), to helping newer players out of jams. And that is just for 1 mod, on a trash weapon, that needs very strict requirements to be even remotely competitive against one of the best Bows (using only basic modding) currently in the game.

This is coming from what could easily be classed as a Hard Core Tenno, not a weekend casual warrior. For them 2.25 hours of active play dedicated to re-rolling 10 times over, 1 single mod on a single trash tier weapon, seems egregious. Let alone 4.5 or 13+ hours. I also have a Vectis and a Daikyu Riven to work on.

Which is very unlike the old RNG stated mods! Which could be obtained by just doing whatever. 

You need stop designing around formulaic exponential numbers, and start designing around time commitment.

Edited by Brasten
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43 minutes ago, Havarkus said:

Not to be rude, but the first riven mod that everyone gets, "simaris target, no damage, no abilities, no trap, + hobbled" is kinda (and i mean major) BS. seriously considering selling that mod without even bothering to unveil it.

Actually if you use rhino's Iron skin you dont take.damage. I had this one from today's sortie.

You just cant use abilities near the target so if you can get into a super low level mission (I did the level 10-15 exterminate in the void for mine) you will be fine. I never had my iron skin go below 80%

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48 minutes ago, Havarkus said:

Not to be rude, but the first riven mod that everyone gets, "simaris target, no damage, no abilities, no trap, + hobbled" is kinda (and i mean major) BS. seriously considering selling that mod without even bothering to unveil it.

Ivara and Prowl.  Use scanner from distance.  Win. 

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16 hours ago, HomShaBom said:

There's nothing that makes me want to put down a game more than knowing the fact that there's absolutely nothing that I can do as a player to match the power of another player. Sure it may take a lot of time and a lot of farming and I may never actually catch up to the high end people, but at least there was a path to get there. Keep farming mods and resources and it is at least conceivable that I could catch up to people.

With the addition of Riven Mods, that's no longer possible. I will always be weaker than other people and there's nothing I can do about it.

I understand that, I understand that SO much, I ditch a game immediately the moment I find out another player can get a 1% increase in all stats which I cannot get unless I pay real money, biggest turn off in any F2P game is P2W content.

But I fail to see how that is the case here, everyone has a chance at one of those mods without paying anything, even though the chance for a good one is astronomically impossible, which is why this whole system needs serious work, both in the way you acquire your needed mods and in their power level, because as many have already said, +1000% crit chance on Panthera means nothing or +1000% slash on Synapse.

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Just think this DE, what is gonna happend IF the people spend plat trading the mods, a lot of people will get rage, next time don't make the mods tradeable because people will probably quit the game because they spend money to get plat, this support users that help with money will leave the game. I just want to help the game, but if you DE remove this mods or nerf them, we will get a wave of quitters. Oh well, i'm just trying to help but this situations aren't very easy to fix.

Edit: Also the people that want to remove this riven mods from the game, can play without the mods if they want ! or just get some plat trading to get better riven mods if the RNG isn't with them, I think you DE Work hard to make this mods, I personally like this mods because they're unique, is very hard to find the same mod with other guy. No more post from me about riven mods, Thanks in advance If you DE never removed this mods or some kind of stats nerfed.

Edited by --I-.Zylux.-I--
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@[DE]Rebecca I hope you guys remove the cycles on our mods so we can experiment the new system from zero... I would feel bad for all the people that rolled like 6 times and ended up with bad mods, because they could have saved (at least) a more or less decent one, if the system worked like that to begin with.

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38 minutes ago, --I-.Zylux.-I-- said:

Just think this DE, what is gonna happend IF the people spend plat trading the mods, a lot of people will get rage, next time don't make the mods tradeable because people will probably quit the game because they spend money to get plat, this support users that help with money will leave the game. I just want to help the game, but if you DE remove this mods or nerf them, we will get a wave of quitters. Oh well, i'm just trying to help but this situations aren't very easy to fix.

Edit: Also the people that want to remove this riven mods from the game, can play without the mods if they want ! or just get some plat trading to get better riven mods if the RNG isn't with them, I think you DE Work hard to make this mods, I personally like this mods because they're unique, is very hard to find the same mod with other guy. No more post from me about riven mods, Thanks in advance If you DE never removed this mods or some kind of stats nerfed.

Because they are tradeable the whole situation replicated D3 RMAH completely and many people know where it ended. 

Of course you cannot guarantee that they won't do it again. That is why people want to stop it right here right now. 

Edited by Volinus7
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1 hour ago, PGDraxos said:

Actually if you use rhino's Iron skin you dont take.damage. I had this one from today's sortie.

You just cant use abilities near the target so if you can get into a super low level mission (I did the level 10-15 exterminate in the void for mine) you will be fine. I never had my iron skin go below 80%

 

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

Ivara and Prowl.  Use scanner from distance.  Win. 

That's a major help, thanks people. :)

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On 17-11-2016 at 10:32 AM, Vicious_Vipa said:

nope - (some of the desired) changes will only come after the community has given their feedback

Not saying we can't give feedback, but the people acted as if the world was ending, so I'm just like calm down folks.

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23 hours ago, ograzzt said:

Where are my focus system changes? Still beta inside beta?

'your' focus changes? ouch, the world or this game doesn't revolve around you :D It's their game, theyre working on what needs to be worked on or what they WANT to work on for that matter, nothing we can do but give constructive feedback and play the game IF you enjoy it.

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Well the most obvious way to give old or underused weapons new life is just to buff them. You can't say that you trying to give new life to them with riven mods coz it's triple rng system, which means that only those who extremely lucky or have tons of plat will be able to "buff" poopy guns, which means that for a majority of players those guns will remain poopy.

Rng system that comes with riven mods CAN be beneficial, but it reqiuare ALOT of changes-removal the value of 15 mods max, allowing players full control of roll-what they want to keep, what they want to remove, for which weapon this riven mods is etc, which may lead to complete rework of how riven mods work in general.

Also about this -"we will nerf riven mods for meta weapon"...who will decide what meta guns are? For example-soma p which considered by many as "meta" weapon, riven mods for which gonna get nerf. But sybaris riven mods doesn't gonna get nerf, even tho dex sybaris is better than soma prime. So combine this with insane (100+%damage, 100+%crit chance, 100+% crit damage) riven mods for sybaris that i've seen (alot of them) and i see a real power creep and dex sybaris becoming a new power creep "meta" gun (and yes i know that not all have it, which also will lead to even more frustration for new players).

Again-just buff crappy guns, make riven mods universal, but reduce overall stats for them (no more 100+% stats), remove plus flat damage from there etc. As it it's now and even if you consider all potential changes that you named riven mods is still a insanely BAD SYSTEM that favors lucky or rich players for no reason.

But if you made riven mods as a plat sink thing then you succeed, dudes now trade thousands of plat for a good rivens. But how long it gonna take untill players will get tired of this and will it actually help the game, or just hurt it? With current reincarnation of riven mods warframe is close as never to pay to win system (not yet, but dangerously close), and i don't think that this is direction that you wanna take. Further expand of riven system with melee or warframe rivens mods will just increase the gap of those who have good riven things and who doesn't, who have much plat to pay for them and those who doesn't. Don't ruin warframe with your own hands please.

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4 hours ago, Havarkus said:

Not to be rude, but the first riven mod that everyone gets, "simaris target, no damage, no abilities, no trap, + hobbled" is kinda (and i mean major) BS. seriously considering selling that mod without even bothering to unveil it.

You can cast iron skin and warding halo long before approaching the target (like at spawn), knock it down with a blast damage melee (orthos P, jat kitty?) and take the scans without failing.  It's best to bring a buddy to clear out an exterminate mission before doing the scan, just to be safe.

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12 hours ago, Xebov said:

The main question that remains for me is, when does this hotfix hit?

When the Focus hotfix hits....oh wait.

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3 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

Because they are tradeable the whole situation replicated D3 RMAH completely and many people know where it ended. 

Of course you cannot guarantee that they won't do it again. That is why people want to stop it right here right now. 

I cant agree here. The Auction House in D3 was fundamental different. D3s AH was some sort of Ebay where Blizzard got a share of any trade done. The player trades in Warframe are nothing else than shifting plat around. DE doesnt get any money from this trades, just for plat that might be bought for that reason.

 

The problem here is the song that is played. Everytime a new system or weapon or mod or whatever enters a game some players decide to spend plat on it to make direct use of it. As soon as things get changed they start playing the same old song how they "invested" money and demand it to stay the way it is, no matter how game breaking it might be. Sooner or later someone starts making posts like "this will drive the moeny spending players out". But in the final instance, nothing will happen, because these ppl cry the loudest, but are an absolute minority. They learn tehre lesson that they should be patient.

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1 hour ago, Reigand said:

- Kuva Cycling costs have been reduced significantly.
<3 <3

They shouldn't increase at all, but at least lowering them will help somewhat.

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34 minutes ago, Xebov said:

 

DE gained money from every riven mod used. 

It has higher stats/capacity per slot it is logical that people will forma their weapons to replace previous mandatory mod with a more powerful and more mandatory riven mod. This indirect act of progression wiping is unacceptable and it's absolutely not a proper way to balance the game. 

It is also locked to a specific weapon this make people forma weapons they haven't forma yet.

Every forma is DE income.

And those top stats riven mods make people buy a lot of plats from DE to trade for them. 

Riven mod showed two sides of the same coin.

Powerful high value items that replace previous ones VS Balance between items

Force players to play everyday VS Players can progress at their own pace

Indefinite grind governed by RNG VS Definitive progression 

You can only choose one side.... 

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On ‎17‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 1:30 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

RNG Mods in Warframe!?
We should certainly take some time to speak to the doom that RNG Mods being a sign of nefarious dealings. While it may pre-date many accounts, Warframe already had RNG Mods in the game. In fact RNG Mods used to be the only type of Mod you could find for Upgrading your gear. We switched to a static Mod system in Update 7, and now 12 Major Updates later we are revisiting the concept with completely different intentions: an End-Game option rather than the only path. 

Thanks for reading, stay tuned for more updates!

 

Why should we wait to say they are the worst thing ever happened to WF?

I mean we have 10 years of mmo to tell us that grinding and endgame are 2 different things.

If it didn't work back then why should it now?

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19 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

DE gained money from every riven mod used.

They drop without requiring money, they can be used without requiring money. So how exactly does DE gain money for every riven mod used?

 

21 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

It has higher stats/capacity per slot it is logical that people will forma their weapons to replace previous mandatory mod with a more powerful and more mandatory riven mod. This indirect act of progression wiping is unacceptable and it's absolutely not a proper way to balance the game.

The progress is not wiped. Your equipment stays as powerfull as it was before. You just got the chance to improve it.

 

23 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

It is also locked to a specific weapon this make people forma weapons they haven't forma yet.

Every forma is DE income.

How is every forma DE income? Formas can be gained very easy. If ppl buy formas from DE thats their own business.

 

24 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

And those top stats riven mods make people buy a lot of plats from DE to trade for them.

You dont have to get them, thats the point. Your equipment stays as it is without them. If ppl decide to pay prices other ppl want thats their business. Again, noone can tell me they saw a +200% crit chance mod for the Tonkor and expected it to stay that way.

 

28 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Riven mod showed two sides of the same coin.

Powerful high value items that replace previous ones VS Balance between items

Force players to play everyday VS Players can progress at their own pace

Indefinite grind governed by RNG VS Definitive progression 

You can only choose one side.... 

If they add ways you can get a suitable amount within a given time and get min and max values closer together it might work well.

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38 minutes ago, Xebov said:

 

Yes, it's their own business if you look at yourself individually. I look at players as the whole population. DE manage the whole population not a single player or a defined group of players. 

"You don't have to get X" contradicts with the doctrine of WF as a PVE game. They expect you to farm every single item in this game.  "You don't even need to play this game"  sounds the same. 

Focus system in contrast is fine because it doesn't become a more powerful version of the previous item. 

If they want to make non meta weapons viable, they could just buff them. A constant value offset like riven mod is not necessary. 

Edited by Volinus7

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This all looks really good, addressing some frustrating issues while maintaining the functional and philosophical core of the system. I still feel that the mod count limiting is a little off base, other than that though, the only thing that worries me is the possible cooldown. I really appreciate the effort to remove random spawns, but off all the part of riven mods, kuva farming is one of the things I feel work the best, with balance of payout and effort and a fun experience. Of course this is subject to my opinion, but, without bringing unnecessary negativity to the table, certain intentionally limiting resources (argon that decays and nitain from alerts) are strictly speak appreciated additions (at least by me). I'm perfectly fine with limitations, but the issue with cooldowns, depending on the time of said cooldown, is that it creates scheduling issues, and obviously many people can't make their schedules around warframe, which creates a situations that can feel punishing or unfair. Anyway, I'm no designer, I don't want to pretend that I've got "the solution", just throwing my thoughts in as you guys work and giving feedback.

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What I want to see are Riven mods that will provide new effects like micro-syndicate procs. Like Armor/health/energy vampire on successful crit (like a tiny amount per crit but have it able to stack.) 

Or other effects like the enemy explodes on death (giving elemental damage as the explosion damage.) 

Have the weapon provide some bonus to OTHER weapons in your loadout (like your braton's crit stacks with your melee crit.)

Or have the stats from your secondary/melee stack onto your primary if the mod is included (like... give a miter your lex's crit chance and oh hey suddenly crit build become viable on the miter.)

Oddball effects that truly are loadout dependent and aren't straight 'this gun now does more damage. Y'know? I would use the miter if it had bouncing sawblades that could crit that caused enemies to explode.

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