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[DE]Rebecca

[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 2!

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On 11/16/2016 at 6:35 PM, EmptyDevil said:

Thank you! Omg... I was getting kinda frustrated with the spawning mechanics because it was so vague.

Okay, how do I fix the fact that every time I try to reply to this thread, I'm quoting EmptyDevil?

I click in the "reply to this thread" field, and I'm auto-quoting.  Also, there seems to be no way to delete the quote box (ctrl-A and delete/backspace does nothing)

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Okay, had to "cut" the thing previously...

In any case I think that there are some things that need to be taken into consideration:

1.  Riven Mods being a Sortie-Only reward makes the people who would most benefit from Riven mods, the least able to get them.  Many players simply cannot participate in the Sorties, simply because their gear/mods aren't that great.  If the idea of these mods is to help increase the effectiveness of non-meta weapons, then shouldn't the reward come from a place where you aren't already using Meta-level weapons?  If I'm able to face-melt enemies at level 80-100, I need riven mods less than someone that is struggling with Oxomoco in the Void.  Yet I have the better chances of getting them.

2.  Riven mods can still roll statistics that are of no practical use on a weapon.  Bows with +Magazine size?  +Flight Speed on hitscan weapons?  -100-200% damage?  +200% Slash damage on Dread?  These stats are of no help, and feed into the desire to cycle the mod again, which leads to:

3.  Feeling "forced" to re-cycle mods due to sub-par options, and racking up an increasing amount of cycling cost.  While this has been alleviated somewhat, the fact that #2 exists, I will get a roll that is suboptimal, even compared to my previous roll.  Thankfully, with the current system, we can keep the previous roll, but I don't really feel that good about it, when I Cycle, and get -120% damage... okay, so I rolled, just to be kicked in the shins.  I can keep my previous stats, but my next cycle gets more expensive... for what's not my fault?  At least cap the cost at 10 rolls or something.  

4.  Obtaining kuva needs to be diversified in a way that just spam-running Rusalka isn't the optimal way to do it.  Due to exponential costs, obtaining Kuva in the most efficient way possible is... well, optimal.  However, that's gonna lead to burnout.

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I really don't know where to start. 

I'm somewhere in the middle: a love hate sort of relationship with these mods. Much like the focus system it's in the right direction but.... so many questionable things.

 

I WANT to use more weapons, but a big chunk of the weapons are practically useless (period). It's just factual. At base they are flawed, these mods wont change that; they will only make it more apparent especially since they're percentages. 

While weapons like the Paracyst (I do have a fondness for this gun though) and Harpak have interesting mechanics, they arent really practical/useful so the weapons get stripped down to base stats as their value.

 

You could give me the best mod for the hind and it would never live up to any reasonable mod for the Latron.

 

EXAMPLE:

My Buzlok Riven adds 270.9% critical chance  + the 150% from Point Strike I get ~53% Which is awesome, literally what the gun needed but then....

My Amprex Riven+111.3% critical chance + the 150% from Point Strike -> ~180% ..........................................

I also have one for the soma.....and I dont use the soma (or the amprex), but at this rate I very well might .....

 

 

Why not combine these mods with the mastery system, outside of limitations? Like stats?

These mods shouldn't even be tradeable....nor have a cap on how many....nor be randomly acquired...

Because one way or another people will get the mod for the gun, and there's no need to passively facilitate a mod drought.

 

 

You should have released riven mods for every gun and put them behind gun challenges or something:

  • Want the Soma Riven Mod? Perform X amount of crits with the Soma or something else weapon specific.
  • Want the Glaxion Riven Mod? Deal X amount of frost damage with the Glaxion, or Kill enemies hit by your beam with the Sibear, or something else.
  • Could've even brought back use of Mastery Test style missions to acquire them.

 

I dont mean give them fixed stats, I mean just let people have a chance to get them for all weapons, because your intentions are pure but a pipe dream. People that use the soma arent going to suddenly stop using the soma when you're still adding strength to their soma....even if it's not as much as what the Buzlok is getting. Odds are they'll stick to the soma.

 

People like guns that arent used frequently, but liking a gun doesnt mean one should cut off their arm and leg to use it.

Supportive weapons have no love right now outside of certain bosses (Glaxion). It is an amazing CC weapon, but instead of spending all my ammo stunning, I could have killed a massive group of enemies using one bullet with another gun and moved onward.... there's something wrong with the way damage vs cc works atm. You could cc all the enemies in the room, or kill them all and (minus a few exceptions) it's better to just kill them.

Edited by Synpai
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Well this is just a S#&$ storm, I'm sure in time there will be a solution to these mods, but right now they need some work and some thinking about, for now I trust in the DEVs to get it right, but I might be back shouting and *@##$ing later!!!!! Good luck DE ?

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1. After some time spent farming kuva, i have to say that its the most unfun gaming experience i have ever had in warframe, the whole system is terrible, the need to change to operator mode is so clunky, awful and badly designed , wtf was DE thinking.... it gets old very very fast.

 we already have to  deal with rng for the mods ,why more rng for resources? running random missions just for the chance to get the kuva encounter is not the way to go...and then we have to deal with even more terrible gameplay mechanics to get the kuva....

why not add one extra guaranteed reward to each sortie missions. like 1500-2000 kuva for misson plus the usual reward at sortie 3, that would make sorties more rewarding and appealing than they are now.

2.There should be another way to get the riven mods outside of sorties, like a random weekly mission

Edited by minidelight
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6 hours ago, CorrinAvatan said:

+200% Slash damage on Dread?  These stats are of no help

 

Did you mean to say some other bow, damage type or -damage? Because the highest base. damage (90%) of the Dread is Slash.

Edited by Madway7

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So 'Riven Disposition' reduced stats on Riven mods for already strong weapons.

I'm fine with that they reduced stats like damage, elemental damage, IPS damage, crit chance, crit damage, damage against specific factions on the Riven mods for these weapons. But what about utility stats like fire rate, reload speed, punch trough, status duration, status chance?

Where they reduced (nerfed) aswell on Riven mods for weapons like Simulor, Tonkor, Boltor, Soma?

And if that's the case why?

These mods could give the strong weapons better utility mods but they don't?

I don't get it.

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I have a few problem with the riven mods:

  • the 15 card limit
  • Some powerful weapons getting "strong" disposition riven mods when they are already "god killers"
  • we have a total of 54 primary weapons (86 if you count different variants) and only allowed a 15 mod cap
  • we have a total of 56 secondary weapons (75 if you count different variants)
  • we have a total of 87 melee weapons (112 if you count different variants)
  • we have a total of 7 sentinel weapons (11 if you count different variants)
  • I dont want to imagine anything for archwing it still need a bit more work before they get it.
  • So we have a total of 204 different weapons Apparently I was wrong we have 284 weapons and only a 15 mod limit That is going to be a huge problem. What i see happening is people making mutiple accounts to store all the different mods so that can collect them all. And use them while trading with themselves.
  • Well looks like I was wrong on a certain thing, for similar weapons depend on the riven mod it is only for the unique version of weapon. (just for one only for the mutalist quanta)
  • What happens when we have 15 mods does the 16th change into another reward?
  • Is there a storing system were we could disposit the extra riven mods or something trade in the ones we don't need for tokens or something we could exchange for other items?

Here is a few suggestions:

  • if you really want a 15 card limit make it for each category so it would be (60 in theory when the sentinels get more weapons) with out counting the sentinel category you would have 45 as a total. Which would give you a nice diversity of possibilities of playing.
  • I would love to see the ability to lock certain stats and reroll other for something more preferred.
  • Not having mods locked on specific weapons able to choose. Example riven mod for the mutalist quanta why not just quanta there is 4 different quanta. you have the regular one, mulalist, vandal and the infested one the paracyst (if you want to count it as a quanta since it's just fully infested)
  • Here is another idea, was thinking about using 4 unwanted riven mods and transmute it into a completely new riven mod.
  • Also, when dissolving riven mods I would find it better if we got a percentage of the endo and kuva back (when upgrading it or re-rolling it.)
Edited by TrueHawkEye
added suggestions, got a new mod changes my points, add more, added more ideas when i missed
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Re-roll cost is too expensive. Make it persistent value, or increase chance to get better stats of re-roll count is increased, avoiding trash stats like distance.

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Some people have already pointed it out, if riven mods were meant for more interesting choices in "end-game" content why only make them available in said "end-game" when the people that would actually benefit the most, namely those who can not do sorties because of the lack of gear now still can´t get them through playing but rather must buy them for probably an ungodly amount of plat.

 

When the syndicates came out, you introduced syndicate mods for lesser used weapon, that idea was considered a band aid but in general a much better system than what we have now with the riven mods and their distribution and cycling mechanics.Prestige farming is rather easy and can even be done by a completely new player. Rising up the ranks takes some time and effort but it is doable and offers a lot of reward. You could have deployed the riven mods via the syndicates, less RNG, less pain in the behind, easier access for newer players. Still RNG, still farming, this time prestige not kuva. You could have even involved the syndicate medallions and made it necessary to present a certain number of medallions to be granted a riven mod. Lots and lots of possibilities ! 

 

A much more radical and time consuming (programming time) but better solution to the underused weapon dilemma would have been a weapon customization system. Instead of the mod you modify the entire weapon. This can only be done like X times and then you need to build a new one.Each time you attempt a customization the weapon's stats get re-rolled randomly. Suddenly true diversity exists since it is possible to have an endless number of differently modified weapons without even sacrificing mod space. You would have to limit the weapons that can actually be customized though to avoid top tiers becoming even more powerful.

This would have accomplished a number of things:

1. Still the need to farm, since you rebuild the weapon after a certain number of customization attempts have destroyed it.

2. Easier access to people that actually need them    

3. The envisioned diversity 

4. The desired empowering of underused weapons

5  No trade shenanigans 

You could have even used kuva or something else as a consumable resource that is needed to modify the weapon if you were hell bent on involving more farming and RNG.

 

Or you could have gone through with the entire damage 3.0 thing, removing mandatory mods, scaling the weapons accordingly and buffing the underused ones along the way. 

 

Edited by TwistedDee
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5 hours ago, The-Tective said:

So 'Riven Disposition' reduced stats on Riven mods for already strong weapons.

I'm fine with that they reduced stats like damage, elemental damage, IPS damage, crit chance, crit damage, damage against specific factions on the Riven mods for these weapons. But what about utility stats like fire rate, reload speed, punch trough, status duration, status chance?

Where they reduced (nerfed) aswell on Riven mods for weapons like Simulor, Tonkor, Boltor, Soma?

And if that's the case why?

These mods could give the strong weapons better utility mods but they don't?

I don't get it.

Fire rate and reload speed aren't just utility. Both directly impact DPS.

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15 hours ago, Madway7 said:

Did you mean to say some other bow, damage type or -damage? Because the highest base. damage (90%) of the Dread is Slash.

Yes, I meant +Impact on Dread.  Posted too late to think straight.

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How about give us some kind of point to choose what kind of status (damage, critical chance, etc.) and its percentage that we want to put on our riven mod and for every choices will reduce the points. The number of point that can be distributed is determined by the weapon's riven disposition status. For example, hind with strong riven disposition has 90 points, the cost to get +damage, +critical chance, and +critical chance is 10 points each, and for every 5% boost it will cost 1 point. So, it'll give +150% for damage, crit chance, and crit damage.

Also i think it will be great if we can reduce some stats that we dont want in a weapon for reduced cost, or even gained some points. Like, i dont want impact type damage on my boltor prime, so -100% impact will give : -5 points for choosing impact and -5 points for reducing it to 100% = -10 points total. The damage itself wont be affected, just affecting the chance to give impact type damage. So, if you put corrosive elemental mods to your boltor, chances are only puncture and corrosive type damage that will come out. But, things like reducing maximum ammo and fire rate will give you some points.

These numbers are just examples but i hope you get my point.

TDLR : We have points to choose what stats we want on our riven mod, and for every choices will either reduce or increase our points.

 

Sorry for bad english.

 

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After the recent changes I still have some issues with the system.

- Riven mods are too rare. It should be easier to obtain them. Best option is probably to add them as a reward somewhere besides sorties (assault missions?)

- Cost of re-rolling rivens should scale with disposition as well so re-rolling mods for normal and strong weapons is cheaper (my suggestion is 33% cheaper for normal and 66% cheaper for strong)

- Even with that I suggest a cut-off where the re-roll cost no longer increases. (My suggestion: 4500 for faint, 3000 for normal, 1500 for strong)

- To promote the idea to use these mods for weak weapons change the limit: 3 for faint mods, 5 for normal and 15 for weak.

- Add a "riven vault" where you can store mods that are over the limit, that you do not currently want to use, but want to keep, just in case. You should not be able to do anything with these mods (this includes selling them) until it is in the "active" category again. Somewhat similar to Kubrow stasis.

Somewhat related to this (Kuva):

- Why not make kuva something that spawns in any 30+ mission? This way it is way easier to get it as a bonus to doing something else(like syndicate missions, sorties, etc). This feels much better than farming it over and over (which is still the fastest way).

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Another problem of riven mods.

 

Pre TWW... i can use ANY weapon i'd like to even if some are situational you can Always use them

 

After TWW: you will use the only you got those godlike riven mod for :| that means variety will drop....yep we don't need godlike stats... but if that the case and community liked to play with bad stats they could use bad weapons before riven mods...

 

So they will kill diversity as long as they are RNG based and limited to 15

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@[DE]Rebecca

Five questions:

-Are Warframe and Sentinel Riven mods a posibility in the future?

-How long until we see Secondary and Melee Riven mods? Also, will Riven mods for melee be weapon-specific like Rifle or will they be WeaponType-specific, considering the large variety of melee weapon types?

-What is the airspeed velocity of an unloaded zephyr?

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They should fix riven mods for rifles first before introducing them for other weapons or even frames...

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While several issues I had with Riven mods have been addressed in recent patches, there are still things I don't like about them:

Increasing reroll costs with repeated rerolls - While I'm not too keen on the idea, if you think that makes the system better, fine. However, please implement an upper limit on how much a reroll can cost. You mentioned "the perfect roll," RNG being RNG, that may never come. If a player has to spend 10 hours farming kuva because the previous 50 rerolls were duds, it's just going to frustrate them and make them more likely to give up and not bother with the system.

And something I've noticed is that most people (myself included, though that may be just my OCD) really dislike completely random numbers. I think tiered stat bonuses is the way to go.

  • Example of what I'm talking about (these numbers are just for example's sake, don't take them seriously):
    • Damage bonus stat comes in 3 tiers, Tier 1 gives 10% damage per rank, T2 2 gives 15%, T3 gives 20%.
    • This can be made to work with the disposition system by assigning a point value to each tier of stats and having disposition dictate the point value a riven mod can have.
      • Example: T1 is 1 point, T2 is 2, T3 is 3, rivens with strong disposition can have 7-9 points worth of stats, neutral 5-7, faint 3-5. So a strong disposition riven can have 3xTier3 worth of stats for the maximum 9 points or it could have 2xT3 and 1xT1 for the minimum 7 and any combination of stats inbetween. Similarly, a faint riven can have 3xT1, 1xT2 + 2xT1, etc...

 

However, regardless of the Riven mod system, I'm left with concerns regarding future reworks of the damage system.

Edited by Playford
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Also, lore aside. Why Kuva for rerolling? 

We already have a pretty huge stockpile of resources in credits....

Kuva could be used to PURCHASE riven mods for guns (the more "meta" the gun, the more expensive). This system would inherently push people to try new, less used weapons and also give use to credits outside of leveling mods (which for a veteran player isnt that big of a deal anyway). Equally it would add more "goal in mind" to the grinding. 

 

Though I still think locking them behind weapon challenges/accolades/mastery tests is better, the option above could prove easier to manage.

 

What is meant by gun challenges/mastery missions:

Spoiler

 

On 11/20/2016 at 2:33 AM, Synpai said:

You should have released riven mods for every gun and put them behind gun challenges or something:

  • Want the Soma Riven Mod? Perform X amount of crits with the Soma or something else weapon specific.
  • Want the Glaxion Riven Mod? Deal X amount of frost damage with the Glaxion, or Kill enemies hit by your beam with the Sibear, or something else.
  • Could've even brought back use of Mastery Test style missions to acquire them.

 

I dont mean give them fixed stats, I mean just let people have a chance to get them for all weapons, because your intentions are pure but a pipe dream. People that use the soma arent going to suddenly stop using the soma when you're still adding strength to their soma....even if it's not as much as what the Buzlok is getting. Odds are they'll stick to the soma.

 

 

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For whatever reson iv found that looking for kuva solo seems to have a higher chance at finding the syphens. Id like to farm with my friends... even more so Id like to help others farm. even if its a boss fight, it might be nice to see on the fortress or an alternative. I mean there has to be a lab they are taking all this to, why not raid that. jest please dont make it a 8 man raid...

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25 minutes ago, --GOOLOO_GOOLOO_GOOLOO-- said:

In this thread:

Many people misusing and overusing the term "band aid"

It may not be as temporary as a band aid but it's definitely not a full fledged solution either. How smart was it to introduce these mods considering the supposed plans for Damage 3.0? These will have to be taken into account now, only making everything more complicated. This is far from what a proper rebalancing looks like.

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Idk if anyone is watching this post but i need some help... I just cycled my riven mod and i get that the stats are random... but what I tough it was random was the stat type... like slash + or dmg +... But i found out i had a weapon with 160% dmg and when i cycle i got like 200%ish dmg o.o So is there a cap for the ammount of dmg i can get out these or not really?

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45 minutes ago, SorrowfulThunder said:

Idk if anyone is watching this post but i need some help... I just cycled my riven mod and i get that the stats are random... but what I tough it was random was the stat type... like slash + or dmg +... But i found out i had a weapon with 160% dmg and when i cycle i got like 200%ish dmg o.o So is there a cap for the ammount of dmg i can get out these or not really?

I'm pretty sure there's a cap, if not it would indicate that DE doesn't care about balance at all.

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There is a bug with Riven Mods where if you link one in chat to someone while you have someones profile open on your screen it will lock up your game and prevent you from doing anything. Tested and confirmed, you're welcome.

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