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[DE]Rebecca

[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 2!

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On 11/17/2016 at 11:30 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

ok thats nice and all but can we pls have sentinal riven mods removed

 

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3 hours ago, Virsalus said:

It may not be as temporary as a band aid but it's definitely not a full fledged solution either. How smart was it to introduce these mods considering the supposed plans for Damage 3.0? These will have to be taken into account now, only making everything more complicated. This is far from what a proper rebalancing looks like.

The main criticism I have for it is that the Rivens were tradable to begin with. I think should never be tradable, but oh well it's too late.

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whelp, wanted to post something unique here but seems like I stepped into a salt mine.

A 17-page- deep salt mine. 

(Yet this is totally understandable, personally I've gotten a Grinlok Riven at the start unrolled and had to spend 2 days finding players that actually use it so I can sell it away)

Glad that all my suggestions were covered, thanks to all those who has already given their feedback :)

 

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It´s the right way, but A LONG WAY to GO.
I personaly hate the System after some playtesting.

TO Random, To much Kuva Grinding ( and boring ) 

Totaly unbalanced!!!

 

Let us vote for 3-5 Combinations of Stats for each weapon for diffrent playstyles and combinations.

And than switch all RIver mods for the weapon to this.

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Structure of this post :
General solution starting by "=>"
Example of solutions starting by "*"
I'm using other players ideas in here as well as mines, thanks to all of them for their clever feedback and proposals.
Side note : I'm sad challenges are gone too, but I don't know how to bring them back in a clever way. So I'll simply focus on the most important problems.


Problem 1 : there is too much randomness in the whole riven+kuva system.
Example of solutions :
* being able to choose to keep 1 or more stats of the riven mod when cycling it (at a kuva/endo cost?),
* beign able to remove forever 1 or more stats of the riven mod when cycling it (at a kuva/endo cost?),
* being able to choose 1 weapon among 5 randomly chosen possible weapons when finishing the Unveiling riven-mod quest,
* being able to reroll only 1 stat and keep the rest,
* being able to choose the weapon for the riven mod based on weapon equipped when unlocking the mod,
* being able to choose to remove forever 3 chosen positive stats from the pool of possible stats of a riven mod when unveiling it,
* being able to pay kuva or endo to boost an already-given stat of a mod to boost it, with a maximum,
* add kuva as a drop from some very specific grineer fortress-themed enemies, and those enemies spawn in squad of 5 - 15 grineers in all 25+ level grineer missions in a random room,
* add the possibility to farm kuva ourselves by killing enemies with the operator without taking damage,
* add kuva as a mission reward for some fortress missions,
* add the possibility to transform a riven mod into kuva, for example for 2/5 of the spent kuva in it to reroll it,
* add a system to make Kuva Guardians spawn on any planet that the Kuva Fortress is located near : 1 Siphon per non-endless mission, and 1 Siphon per rotation interval on endless missions.


Problem 2 : kuva farming is not fun, going to lead to a general burnout.
=> add other ways to farm kuva so that siphons become a nice random event we're happy to do instead of the only way to farm kuva.
* see precedent proposals about kuva,
* add [200 - 1000] kuva as possible rewards for Grineer missions.
=> Don't forget to add some importance to the Corpus and Infested in future updates.

 

Problem 3 : some weapons are underpowered and the riven mods are increasing a bit the gap, or is just moving it somewhere else.
=> easy way : add interesting stats/capacities to the underpowered weapons.
=> hard but nicer way : change the damage mods & system so that all weapons become interesting. For example :
* add 2 unique mods per weapon with unique effects, creating a unique playstyle per weapon, (example : you have done it with the prova already, with the tetra, with some syndicates mods for some underpowered weapons, etc)
* change most damaging mods (Serration, etc) to conditional mods. How it works : when *trigger* then *effect* [on *stat*].
Triggers : when shield diminishes, when health diminishes, when a status happens on self, when shield regenerates, when health is back at 100%, when shield is back at 100%, when sentinel/companion is hit, when sentinel/companion is killed, when hitting an enemy, when killing an enemy, when doing a headshot, when doing a critical hit, when inflicting status, when reloading, when using an ability, when shooting at another allied tenno, when dying, when swapping to secondary, when swapping to melee, when melee channeling, when melee blocking, when jumping, when touching the ground, when wall-latching...
Effects : direct damage, damage based on % of something (max health of target, max shields of target, normal bullet damage, max health of attacker, ...), status proc, buff a stat of a target/of the group, debuff a stat of a target/a group of targets, move/teleport a target...

Examples :
"Impaling bullet", Rifle mod : when reloading this weapon, gains a 7s buff that empowers the next shot by 35% max health of the hit target as puncture damage. Dissipates at first shot, even if it is missed.
"Empowering", Rifle mod : when shooting at an ally, he gains [damage of that attack/3] finisher damage for 3 seconds. Doesn't stack, but renews the buff if shot multiple times.
"Automatic Reload", Rifle mod : passively, this weapon reloads 3% of his magazine per second.

 

Problem 4 : besides the first, riven mods can't be obtained anywhere else than in sorties, and the drop rate is ridiculously low.
=> add riven mods as rewards of other things.
* Rare drop of high level sabotage missions,
* Rare reward of rotation C defense, interceptions, excavations & survivals,
* 125k standing cost at a syndicate,
* rare alerts,
* Stalker occasional drop,
* rare invasion reward,
* very rare drop of enemies on the planet near the Kuva Fortress,
* transmuting 4 riven mods into a completely new one.

 

Problem 5 : the limit of 15 riven mods is a bad solution to the "plats = power" problem and bringing other problems like "i can't mod all my rifle weapons".
* if people can choose the weapon the riven mod is for, then the rarity problem disappears and plat-cost differences are less important,
* change limit riven mods to 2 per weapon.

 

Problem 6 : the high mastery rank requirements are unjustified, totally unfair.
=> justify the MR requirement by the idea "the mod is getting DAMN better now that you work on it".
* make it so all mods start at MR 8 or 9, then the MR required rises when the mod is cycled, or when chosing what stat is kept, or when a stat is boosted, depending on what previous suggestion you applied.

 

Problem 7 : sorties rewards are 2k (and rarely 4k) endo only.
* add 1500 - 3000 kuva as a possible reward,
* add 350k credits as a possible reward,
* raise the riven mods, lenses, reactor, catalyst and exilus rates by lowering the 2k and 4k endo rates.
(note : adding greater lenses was a good idea. But what's the rate again???)
* at some point, adding other "sorties-like" / "raid-like" high-level missions that can be done once per day with great rewards is a good way to split those rewards into categories. For example, you could do level 100 missions with 2 to 9 different objectives randomly chosen in {sabotage, capture, mobile defense, spy, survival, rescue, exterminate, assassination, excavation}, and those would focus on really rare things like reactors, catalysts, exilus, and we'd remove them from sorties rewards.
* or, make sorties random things than can be played without limitation. Then we do them for challenge, pleasure and endo...

 

Now only 1 thing matters : are you going to apply solutions, DE? If yes, which ones? :)

Edited by NewMilenium
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On 11/16/2016 at 7:53 PM, -S-O-Yetili said:

And what will happen when the Fortress approaches low level planets like Earth? New Players will react like "What the F*** is this?

erm....new players wouldn't see the fortress lol. Remember you have to do TWW to see it.

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2 hours ago, -CM-DarkSyndrome said:

erm....new players wouldn't see the fortress lol. Remember you have to do TWW to see it.

But they can see Kuva Siphons spawn on Earth and Kids running around farming it. Or am I wrong?

Rebecca said " Accessing Kuva Siphons is being experimented with to not be a random chance in a tileset, but rather a guaranteed spawn on planets when the Fortress is in the vicinity"

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On 11/16/2016 at 7:30 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

RNG Mods in Warframe!?
We should certainly take some time to speak to the doom that RNG Mods being a sign of nefarious dealings. While it may pre-date many accounts, Warframe already had RNG Mods in the game. In fact RNG Mods used to be the only type of Mod you could find for Upgrading your gear. We switched to a static Mod system in Update 7, and now 12 Major Updates later we are revisiting the concept with completely different intentions: an End-Game option rather than the only path.

IMO, they should've stayed gone.  There was a good reason the game was changed for the better when they were gotten rid of back then.

Are Rivens all bad?  Well, maybe not entirely.  But they are more power creep in a game that doesn't need it, and they are home to ludicrous amounts of RNG - something that Warframe already suffers too much from.

If you want to improve Riven mods, here's how to do it.

RNG Sanity Checks
Start with eliminating ridiculous stats on Riven mods.  Magazine size mods on a bow?  Firing speed on a weapon that has only two shots in its clip by default?  These are ludicrous, and should be filtered out.

When choosing unveiling requirements, strive for reasonable accomplishments.  Not something like this, which sounds like it came right out of Paper Mario's Glitz Pit.  Something like getting 3-5 headshots in a row, having a pet use Scavenger to break open 5 lockers in a row without failing, performing a Spy mission without getting hit or without setting off a single alarm, completing an Interception without allowing enemies to take a single point.  Y'know, stuff where you don't have to tie your brain in knots figuring out how it's supposed to be done.

Or maybe allow the player to bypass unveiling via kuva or something.  Point being, I shouldn't be looking at a mod and going "y'know what, it's not even worth the struggle to unveil it.  I like this game, but I am not subjecting myself to that kind of frustration."

Improving the Benefits
Riven mods are MR-locked, require The War Within to even make available, and cost upwards of 12+ capacity.  Most of them are not worth that much capacity by any stretch of the imagination.  That's akin to a Primed Mod at max rank; it had better have bonuses that wouldn't be out of place on a Primed Mod.  Yet they're actually a lot more like Corrupted mods at best - sure, there may be a ridiculous positive mod or two on it, but it's saddled with a negative trait as well.  That's ridiculous.

Strip these things of their negative traits, to start with, and favor positive traits that are useful for the weapon in question.  Weapons with low base damage should be given damage boosts or large crit bonuses that can push them into perma-crit or red-crit territory.  Weapons with low fire rates should be given firing speed bonuses.  Just having a random, unweighted smattering of stats does not a worthy mod make, especially if there's negative traits involved.

Limit the RNG
Kuva costs rise with every reroll.  While I'm glad you removed the repeated unveiling, and reduced the Kuva reroll cost, I have to ask myself why the reroll cost has to keep getting higher at all?  Not only am I subject to RNG on these mods, but I also have to pay an ever-increasing cost to fight that RNG.  What's worse, I can sink that cost into the mod, and come up with something that I have to refuse, with the end result being resources paid for no net benefit.

That doesn't make players feel good.  In fact, unless you like gambling (I don't), it's going to make them feel really garbage.

Why is THIS the Endgame?
So, okay, Rivens are the new endgame option for mods.  They can be garbage, or they can be miraculous, based entirely on luck.  Why is such an RNG-driven mechanic considered the "endgame"?  It honestly shouldn't even exist IMO,   It's already luck that determines whether you get vital regular mods or not.  There's already luck involved in spawning and finding Orokin Vaults with a key that matches yours if you want Corrupted Mods, which have become the core of most builds.  It's already luck that determines how many ducats you have when Baro rolls around with the Primed Mods you need to be competitive in Sorties.  There's already luck involved with getting Kuva in the first place, since it's RNG that determines whether any qualifying Grineer mission spawns a siphon.  Even then, it's luck that determines how much Kuva you actually get from that Siphon.  There's luck involved in just getting a Riven mod from a sortie to begin with!

How many RNG-related hoops do you intend to make us jump through, to prepare for, participate in, and benefit from your chosen endgame?  Because there's going to come a point where we're going to look at all of this, in its entirety, and go "nope, that's not worth it.  What else can I play that's going to better respect my time invested?"

Respecting time invested was one of the biggest reasons I got into Warframe to start with.  My friends told me, "this game is amazing at respecting your time invested - every boss drops at least one part of a new Warframe every time you beat them, there's multiple sources for almost anything you can want, and most things that matter are locked away behind time or money or resources, not real-cash paywalls or RNG."  Yet, ever since then, I've been seeing that become less and less true.

I recently took a hiatus from Warframe for a month or so, to cleanse my palate and see what else is out there.  I came back due to fond memories of the game.  But already I feel like I might have to take another leave of absence, because of this new wealth of RNG-based endgame that has been summarily dropped into my lap.

Edited by Arkvold
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1 hour ago, Arkvold said:

Point being, I shouldn't be looking at a mod and going "y'know what, it's not even worth the struggle to unveil it.  I like this game, but I am not subjecting myself to that kind of frustration."

You have to understand this is not a fact but entirely a point of view. I saw several players buying "impossible" riven mods. They were paying plats to get those mods to unlock them, for fun. Myself, I was happy at each challenge I had not done yet. I like difficulty, because I like to mobilize all resources I have to overcome and solve a problem.

What is a struggle to you is the fun of your neighbour. Don't try to make conclusions based on points of view that are not shared, those conclusions have strong chances to be wrong. This is exactly why I didn't try to put back the challenges that are gone now in my big post; to like or dislike them is only a matter of point of view. We have urgencies waiting, let's not waste time on opinion details.

 

Things in your post like "it's ridiculous" and already-biased analyses are not going to help DE to take good decisions. This forum should not be "let's all shout like mads until they do what we want". It should be a place where we collect facts, analyse them and then make conclusions to improve the game.

In the same way, why repeating what has been said and said again? You're just ignoring all other players before and not having any good consequence on DE.

 

^--- Written in calm and with respect,  _ New

Edited by NewMilenium
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3 hours ago, Arkvold said:

Limit the RNG

Kuva costs rise with every reroll.  While I'm glad you removed the repeated unveiling, and reduced the Kuva reroll cost, I have to ask myself why the reroll cost has to keep getting higher at all?  Not only am I subject to RNG on these mods, but I also have to pay an ever-increasing cost to fight that RNG.  What's worse, I can sink that cost into the mod, and come up with something that I have to refuse, with the end result being resources paid for no net benefit.

That doesn't make players feel good.  In fact, unless you like gambling (I don't), it's going to make them feel really garbage.

 

I feel that they might just be ignoring players who say this just like they ignored the idea of adding item vaccuum in the options menu.

The rising cost seems to directly go against their goal of making people use underused weapons, their reasoning to make the overused weapons less desirable to cycle to get the "perfect roll" could still work with dispositions.

Just make weapons with strong dispositions cost 1k kuva to cycle, neutral cost 1500 and faint cost 2000 and never increase from that. (Of course these values should be looked depending on how Kuva farming changes)

The rising cost makes these mods harder to trade for other mods, even if it's a bad weapon riven for another. As you have to take cycles into account.

And increased cycling cost coupled with the 15 riven mod cap will lead to players tossing out the rivens with high cycling costs for bad weapons out first rather than keeping them and hoping they get some good stats one day.

In general I don't get why they don't just move Kiva farming to the fortress, it's an amazing tileset, but beyond that it's got nothing to offer. And it would make more sense as you unlock it after the quest aswell as the ability to farm kuva.

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6 hours ago, NewMilenium said:

You have to understand this is not a fact but entirely a point of view. I saw several players buying "impossible" riven mods. They were paying plats to get those mods to unlock them, for fun. Myself, I was happy at each challenge I had not done yet. I like difficulty, because I like to mobilize all resources I have to overcome and solve a problem.

What is a struggle to you is the fun of your neighbour. Don't try to make conclusions based on points of view that are not shared, those conclusions have strong chances to be wrong. This is exactly why I didn't try to put back the challenges that are gone now in my big post; to like or dislike them is only a matter of point of view. We have urgencies waiting, let's not waste time on opinion details.

 

Things in your post like "it's ridiculous" and already-biased analyses are not going to help DE to take good decisions. This forum should not be "let's all shout like mads until they do what we want". It should be a place where we collect facts, analyse them and then make conclusions to improve the game.

In the same way, why repeating what has been said and said again? You're just ignoring all other players before and not having any good consequence on DE.

The problem is, there's a lot about this game that's subjective.  To someone who likes RNG, this entire system might be right up their alley.  Nobody's 'point of view' is going to be shared by literally everyone.  If nobody is allowed to make points that aren't universally agreed-upon, this forum may as well shut down.  I'll make my points as I see them, thanks.  You're welcome to disagree as you see it, but I'm not obligated to adhere to your standards for feedback.  I'm here to give my feedback on their decisions.  Not anyone else's - if you disagree, make your own point to them why their decisions are correct, instead of attacking mine.

Bias and perception are integral to how DE makes decisions.  Why?  Because they want people to spend money on their game, and not someone else's.  Unless the game is perceived as respecting their time and effort or possibly monetary investment with rewards that justify investing it, they're not going to get any business.  That's the crux of the Riven mod problem - due to the RNG with which they're generated, the Riven mod you get has a good chance to not be worth the effort you put into getting it and unveiling it.  Thus requiring rerolls and more resource and time investment, not to mention fighting yet more RNG, to correct it, assuming that you can before you run out of resources to do so.

The Riven Mod I posted, while maybe not as bad as some that I've seen, is still one of the worst I've ever looked at for unveiling requirements.  It was my very first Riven mod, given to me right out The War Within, and after all of the frustration with the Golden Maw segment and getting the hang of fighting Kuva Guardians with the Operator, it felt like a slap in the face.  "Here's a Riven mod that requires you to solo your most hated mission type, which is also the hardest mission type to solo, not die, and do it while suffering from a Hobbled Dragon Key.  Have fun!"  I looked at that, and it sucked all of the satisfaction I had about completing TWW right out of me.  Why?  Because I know when I unlock that, it's not going to be good - I know my luck, and this mod's unveiling requirements are just another example of it.  If I could be guaranteed that it would be for a weapon I'm interested in, have an MR lock that I'm not going to suffer from, and that it would have excellent stats to justify its costs, then yeah, I might consider it worth my time, I might've been excited for it.  But I can't get excited over getting the Warframe equivalent of a lottery ticket.

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I'm going to answer very simply to go to the point, since we agree on some things and I may simply have not been understanded on others :

some of the current issues are facts. Some of the perceived issues are opinions.

You posted an excellent example of how too much RNG is, in fact, a problem. It cannot be considered good (= not an opinion "that much RNG is cool"), no one has for goal to spend time, plats and efforts making its weapons useless to die all the time in missions and fail them (someone like that didn't succeed The War Within anyway).

 

I tried, as much as possible, to collect current FACTS that are problems, and different ideas of solutions, in my big post of this page. Because correcting those is a priority over changing DE opinion on what some people like and other dislike. We are several liking very much the challenges to open Veiled Riven mods, including after each cycling, and I don't think it is relevant to go again against their decision and say "heyyy i liked it put it back".

Don't get me wrong : opinions are okay, especially on public forums - as you say, otherwise we could almost shut'em down. But there, this topic, at this moment, with this context, it is not the priority, there are too many factual problems to solve. Yes, factual.

Let's not waste our time, let's not just shout "hey i don't like [feature]". Let's collect factual problems and propose many different solutions so that we actually help DE correcting our beloved game.

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I want to share my input after playing around with this new Riven mod system. I have to say I really don't like the uncapped exponential cost of re-rolling the Riven mod. I have re-rolled my Riven mod 10 times and it just grows faster and faster, and at this point I should just throw the Riven mod out.

The next thing I don't like about this system is the 15 mod limit cap. Could we at least get a method to increase the limit, either buy it with plat or kuva?

DE is trying so hard this time to make Riven mod as painful as it can get. I understand DE probably want this to be the new end game, but I really don't enjoy doing exponential amount of kuva hunt.

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On 19/11/2016 at 9:44 PM, marelooke said:

There's no ladder to climb, the only way to make old weapons viable is by making ranking up mean more, iow: making it massively slower so people need to use their weapons for longer than it takes to max them. Now people just buy their way to top tear gear by trading or plat and then they just grind out their MR12/13 with the OP Primes they bought, grab whatever other OP gear that was level locked and come here complaining about how other weapons aren't viable and they are out of things to do (you can do Sorties with the damn Lato, ffs, even without Riven mods).

I do agree with that. Just stating that some of these exact players (paying ones) complain that these weapons should have been empowered instead of the riven mods.
Empowering weapons right away would have been a huge mistake. Making them upgradeable later is kinda cool IMO.
Latron ruuuuules!

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On 11/16/2016 at 7:30 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

- 'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.

Does this mean that, in addition to Disposition, Mastery Rank of the Riven mod multiplies stat values as well? How does mastery tie into all this, or is it just a way to encourage trading between players?

We're all eager to know the mechanics to these mods. What's the highest values we can roll? Do all Riven mods have a max MR of 16? Is it possible to maximize all 4 stats? Do certain weapons have an internal bias towards rolling particular stats? 

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7 hours ago, Finedaible said:

Does this mean that, in addition to Disposition, Mastery Rank of the Riven mod multiplies stat values as well? How does mastery tie into all this, or is it just a way to encourage trading between players?

I'm pretty sure this means mastery rank of the weapon itself takes into effect for the disposition.

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8 hours ago, Finedaible said:

Does this mean that, in addition to Disposition, Mastery Rank of the Riven mod multiplies stat values as well? How does mastery tie into all this, or is it just a way to encourage trading between players?

I heard MR affects the amount of stats you can get, not sure though.

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Regarding the limits.

Maybe put a limit only on the number of mods you can have for one particular disposition.

Another thought give us the ability to bank Rivens we're not using currently.

Most often I don't want to melt it into Endo or find somebody in trade (which is a nightmare) that uses the random low tier weapon riven I have.

Sometimes I spend more time in trade chat then actually playing the game trying to get rid of rivens then I don't want to get rid of in the first place.

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Hello,
this is following my second post, and following the recent update.
We got to thank DE for their recent update. Now the Kuva missions are not based on RNG, and can be any classical mission on (almost-)any planet. Well done DE, that's a big problem solved, and way more fun provided to us to farm Kuva. :)
We could use another method to farm Kuva for more diversity, but this isn't urgent now, thanks to the already-done missions diversity.

Back to problems and solutions, all updated :

 

Problem 1 : there is too much randomness in the riven system.
Example of solutions :
* being able to choose to keep 1 or more stats of the riven mod when cycling it (at a kuva/endo cost?),
* beign able to remove forever 1 or more stats of the riven mod when cycling it (at a kuva/endo cost?),
* being able to choose 1 weapon among 5 randomly chosen possible weapons when finishing the Unveiling riven-mod quest,
* being able to reroll only 1 stat and keep the rest,
* being able to choose the weapon for the riven mod based on weapon equipped when unlocking the mod,
* being able to choose to remove forever 3 chosen positive stats from the pool of possible stats of a riven mod when unveiling it,
* being able to pay kuva or endo to boost an already-given stat of a mod to boost it, with a maximum.

 


Ex-Problem 2 nicely solved. We can always throw in more fun with other ways to obtain Kuva, but as least there's no problem anymore now.

 

 

Problem 3 : some weapons are underpowered and the riven mods are increasing a bit the gap, or is just moving it somewhere else.
=> easy way : add interesting stats/capacities to the underpowered weapons.
=> hard but nicer way : change the damage mods & system so that all weapons become interesting. For example :
* add 2 unique mods per weapon with unique effects, creating a unique playstyle per weapon, (example : you have done it with the prova already, with the tetra, with some syndicates mods for some underpowered weapons, etc)
* change most damaging mods (Serration, etc) to conditional mods. How it works : when *trigger* then *effect* [on *stat*].
Triggers : when shield diminishes, when health diminishes, when a status happens on self, when shield regenerates, when health is back at 100%, when shield is back at 100%, when sentinel/companion is hit, when sentinel/companion is killed, when hitting an enemy, when killing an enemy, when doing a headshot, when doing a critical hit, when inflicting status, when reloading, when using an ability, when shooting at another allied tenno, when dying, when swapping to secondary, when swapping to melee, when melee channeling, when melee blocking, when jumping, when touching the ground, when wall-latching...
Effects : direct damage, damage based on % of something (max health of target, max shields of target, normal bullet damage, max health of attacker, ...), status proc, buff a stat of a target/of the group, debuff a stat of a target/a group of targets, move/teleport a target...

Examples :
"Impaling bullet", Rifle mod : when reloading this weapon, gains a 7s buff that empowers the next shot by 35% max health of the hit target as puncture damage. Dissipates at first shot, even if it is missed.
"Empowering", Rifle mod : when shooting at an ally, he gains [damage of that attack/3] finisher damage for 3 seconds. Doesn't stack, but renews the buff if shot multiple times.
"Automatic Reload", Rifle mod : passively, this weapon reloads 3% of his magazine per second.

 

 

Problem 4 : besides the first, riven mods can't be obtained anywhere else than in sorties, and the drop rate is ridiculously low.
Partially solved. Now Riven mods are common drop from sorties. I wonder what will happen once we get riven mods for Shotguns, for Secondaries, for Melee : how will the future players obtain riven mods for rifles? At least now we have an almost reliable source to get some, but still-RNG way again...

 

Problem 5 : the limit of 15 riven mods is a bad solution to the "plats = power" problem and bringing other problems like "i can't mod all my rifle weapons".
* if people can choose the weapon the riven mod is for, then the rarity problem disappears and plat-cost differences are less important,
* change limit riven mods to 2 per weapon,
* add a way to store riven mods somewhere.

 

Problem 6 : the high mastery rank requirements are unjustified, totally unfair.
=> justify the MR requirement by the idea "the mod is getting DAMN better now that you work on it".
* make it so all mods start at MR 8 or 9, then the MR required rises when the mod is cycled, or when chosing what stat is kept, or when a stat is boosted, depending on what previous suggestion you applied.

 

Ex-Problem 7 : solved.
They changed sortie rewards, good job again DE! :)

 

- - - - -


It is very nice to see our feedback counts. Thanks for making this game more and more fun & balanced! Let's continue doing it! :)

 

 

Quote

Sometimes I spend more time in trade chat then actually playing the game trying to get rid of rivens then I don't want to get rid of in the first place.

Gosh I agree so much there...

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2 hours ago, NewMilenium said:

Problem 4 : besides the first, riven mods can't be obtained anywhere else than in sorties, and the drop rate is ridiculously low.
Partially solved. Now Riven mods are common drop from sorties. I wonder what will happen once we get riven mods for Shotguns, for Secondaries, for Melee : how will the future players obtain riven mods for rifles? At least now we have an almost reliable source to get some, but still-RNG way again...

 

I wouldn't call that a partial solution to the problem. As I stated before even with a 50% chance of getting a riven after completing the daily sortie the chance of obtaining a mod for a specific rifle assuming there are 40 weapons in the pool is 1/2*1/40=1/80 =1.25%

So the average time to farm a mod for rifle X is 80 days  (that is nearly 3 months of farming) + Add the 15 item cap and you had in average to sell/trade 25 mods to have enough space.

You posted some possible solitions before: add riven mods as rewards of other things (that can be completed more than once per day) and allow transmuting them OR remove the 15 mod limit.

If we could effectively farm for rivens the RNG aspect of their rolls wouldn't hurt that mutch (like when looting a crappy legendary in D3)
 

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8 hours ago, NewMilenium said:

Hello,
this is following my second post, and following the recent update.
We got to thank DE for their recent update. Now the Kuva missions are not based on RNG, and can be any classical mission on (almost-)any planet. Well done DE, that's a big problem solved, and way more fun provided to us to farm Kuva. :)
We could use another method to farm Kuva for more diversity, but this isn't urgent now, thanks to the already-done missions diversity.

Back to problems and solutions, all updated :

 

Problem 1 : there is too much randomness in the riven system.
Example of solutions :
* being able to choose to keep 1 or more stats of the riven mod when cycling it (at a kuva/endo cost?),
* beign able to remove forever 1 or more stats of the riven mod when cycling it (at a kuva/endo cost?),
* being able to choose 1 weapon among 5 randomly chosen possible weapons when finishing the Unveiling riven-mod quest,
* being able to reroll only 1 stat and keep the rest,
* being able to choose the weapon for the riven mod based on weapon equipped when unlocking the mod,
* being able to choose to remove forever 3 chosen positive stats from the pool of possible stats of a riven mod when unveiling it,
* being able to pay kuva or endo to boost an already-given stat of a mod to boost it, with a maximum.

 


Ex-Problem 2 nicely solved. We can always throw in more fun with other ways to obtain Kuva, but as least there's no problem anymore now.

 

 

Problem 3 : some weapons are underpowered and the riven mods are increasing a bit the gap, or is just moving it somewhere else.
=> easy way : add interesting stats/capacities to the underpowered weapons.
=> hard but nicer way : change the damage mods & system so that all weapons become interesting. For example :
* add 2 unique mods per weapon with unique effects, creating a unique playstyle per weapon, (example : you have done it with the prova already, with the tetra, with some syndicates mods for some underpowered weapons, etc)
* change most damaging mods (Serration, etc) to conditional mods. How it works : when *trigger* then *effect* [on *stat*].
Triggers : when shield diminishes, when health diminishes, when a status happens on self, when shield regenerates, when health is back at 100%, when shield is back at 100%, when sentinel/companion is hit, when sentinel/companion is killed, when hitting an enemy, when killing an enemy, when doing a headshot, when doing a critical hit, when inflicting status, when reloading, when using an ability, when shooting at another allied tenno, when dying, when swapping to secondary, when swapping to melee, when melee channeling, when melee blocking, when jumping, when touching the ground, when wall-latching...
Effects : direct damage, damage based on % of something (max health of target, max shields of target, normal bullet damage, max health of attacker, ...), status proc, buff a stat of a target/of the group, debuff a stat of a target/a group of targets, move/teleport a target...

Examples :
"Impaling bullet", Rifle mod : when reloading this weapon, gains a 7s buff that empowers the next shot by 35% max health of the hit target as puncture damage. Dissipates at first shot, even if it is missed.
"Empowering", Rifle mod : when shooting at an ally, he gains [damage of that attack/3] finisher damage for 3 seconds. Doesn't stack, but renews the buff if shot multiple times.
"Automatic Reload", Rifle mod : passively, this weapon reloads 3% of his magazine per second.

 

 

Problem 4 : besides the first, riven mods can't be obtained anywhere else than in sorties, and the drop rate is ridiculously low.
Partially solved. Now Riven mods are common drop from sorties. I wonder what will happen once we get riven mods for Shotguns, for Secondaries, for Melee : how will the future players obtain riven mods for rifles? At least now we have an almost reliable source to get some, but still-RNG way again...

 

Problem 5 : the limit of 15 riven mods is a bad solution to the "plats = power" problem and bringing other problems like "i can't mod all my rifle weapons".
* if people can choose the weapon the riven mod is for, then the rarity problem disappears and plat-cost differences are less important,
* change limit riven mods to 2 per weapon,
* add a way to store riven mods somewhere.

 

Problem 6 : the high mastery rank requirements are unjustified, totally unfair.
=> justify the MR requirement by the idea "the mod is getting DAMN better now that you work on it".
* make it so all mods start at MR 8 or 9, then the MR required rises when the mod is cycled, or when chosing what stat is kept, or when a stat is boosted, depending on what previous suggestion you applied.

 

Ex-Problem 7 : solved.
They changed sortie rewards, good job again DE! :)

 

- - - - -


It is very nice to see our feedback counts. Thanks for making this game more and more fun & balanced! Let's continue doing it! :)

 

 

Gosh I agree so much there...

557387_slow-clap-well-done.gif

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So many ideas, reading this sparks intrigue as a console player waiting for all this stuff. Something to do besides raids everyday, and Riven mods...sounds like a trade chat crash is inbound xD Also, anyone know when we'll have a new sortie season? Season 9 has been on so long im sure even the people who just unlocked sorties have completed it.

 

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2 hours ago, (XB1)Monoflux0115 said:

So many ideas, reading this sparks intrigue as a console player waiting for all this stuff. Something to do besides raids everyday, and Riven mods...sounds like a trade chat crash is inbound xD Also, anyone know when we'll have a new sortie season? Season 9 has been on so long im sure even the people who just unlocked sorties have completed it.

 

The War Within dumps sortie seasons in favour of an all repeatable loot table and moving Vandal/Wraith parts to invasion rewards (with an added twist).

Currently the pc table for sorties is

2k enso reward 

Rifle Riven mod 

4k endo reward 

Focus lens (includes greater lens now, it's set up as only "focus lens" and not each individual lens in the table)

3 nitain 

Forma

Exilus adapter bp

Legendary core

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after farming some more and re-rolling a bunch of riven mods i kind a feel like Riven Mods as it is are essentially glorified damage mods (besides silly gimmicks like -100% flight speed on projectile weapons or negative damage for "healS" even though it has no practical uses). 

Essentially when i stumble across an interesting combination of stats for a particular mod i am FORCED to abandon previous roll, without knowing how the new one will perform. Thats an oversight and requires some sort of "confirmation cooldown" or ability to re-roll backwards at any point in time for previous mod, in case new one sucks &#!. Otherwise i am forced to write down all my stats on every Riven mod i have and do a bunch of calculations - how much my status or damage would go up and how can i experiment with it. Maybe make it simulacrum only or whatever. 

Additionally i think the fact that a Riven can roll for ANY polarity is pretty silly, it should have a fixed one per rifle, caz again, this discourages "experiments". 

In the end "older/weaker" weapons needed a bunch of buffs to their base stats mostly to compete with top-god tier ones and we got that in form of giant RNG wall with almost no control or any real sense of progression. What could be done alternatively was a buff to main stats of sorts and Riven mods would be a Utility monstrosity or some "special kind of bullets" like Electromagnetic Coating for Sniper Rifles which completely disables nullifier bubles for example 7 seconds or smtn along the lines. For guns it could cause them to malfunction or u can make up any status effect for a bunch of guns/launchers/shotguns. Additionally to those "special bullets" u could throw in a couple of utility mods for better reload times, faster attack speed etc, this way u won't have to turn Every Single Riven into Serration+Split Chamber +1 Combo/Status machines. (or force people to pursue this avenue, this we actually had a decent alternative)

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How's this for a reduction on the RNG hell that's still present with mod stats:

  1. No more fully random picks of stats, instead preset combinations are created, and some of those will be excluded from showing up on certain weapons that they won't be any use on (like boosting values that can't be boosted, or zoom on pretty much everything), so that every mod is of use, even if it isn't a perfect pick of stats and quality.
  2. Mods come in something equivalent to other games' white/green/blue/purple increasing quality and rarity scale (something like 74%/20%/5%/1% rarity), with the better versions having higher values of the same stats, and requiring a higher MR and capacity to use.
  3. Rerolling can change the quality, as well as the stats present.

The idea is that a 'white' quality mod will be a slight improvement over a regular mod of gold quality regarding the amount of stats it provides, a perfectly statted 'white' mod, average 'green', or badly statted 'blue' equivalent to a primed mod, and good 'green', average 'blue', or poor 'purple' better than a primed mod.

Essentially you're replacing all of the really bad trash combinations of stats, with something that can at least be used, even though you'd rather have a better version, with higher values.  While there's been talk of mandatory mods, the opposite end of the scale is also an issue, and what the game does not need is a huge number of mods being generated, that are equivalent to the kind of grey quality vendor trash seen in other games, that sells for so little it's actually a burden to keep getting rid of.

You could even have transmutation where four identical mods can be combined to create the same mod at the next highest quality.  That way, if by some miracle you actually manage to collect 64 (4x4x4) 'white' mods of the exact same type, you can use them to create a 'purple'.  Now that collecting of sets would really encourage player trading.

Edited by polarity
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