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[DE]Rebecca

[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 2!

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Just now, DatDarkOne said:

It's the price you pay for being an early adopter.

Sorry, but I am pretty sure I am not the only one.

And, we spend quite a lot of time to farm and play the game just like any others,surely at least something like a 10k kuva refund is reasonable? I personally spend at least 30K Kuva,plenty had spent miles more than that.

If there is zero compenstion,I'd be very disappointed. I know we played early, but it is OUR feedback who cause the devs to improve.

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Just now, (PS4)Romulus93 said:

This whole game is an early adoption risk. Perhaps it be better if we all waited until it was out of beta.

they keep the game registered as a beta because it allows them to change systems and ingame assets freely without legal constraints that would choke up the process otherwise

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1 minute ago, Nekrosmas said:

I know we played early, but it is OUR feedback who cause the devs to improve.

thats just it it was your feedback on the sheer amount needed that caused the change so shouldn't the knowledge that because of that you wont need as much in the future be compensation enough

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I like the idea of the changes, but still think some stats on Rivens should be looked at. I got a Burston Riven and keep rerolling it to get massive crit damage boosts on a non crit weapon. Even with crit chance boosting mods and cats/arcanes it is a silly stat to have on such a weapon. I don't want to rely on RNG for my Riven mod to be useful that took RNG to reroll and RNG to farm. As a player since beta I understand Warframe has lots of grind and RNG. However, rerolling a mod to get stats the weapon can't even use and then being punished for bad RNG by increasing costs to reroll is a bad way of going about it. I would also love to see players credited back the Kuva they already spent with the cost changes.

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There needs to be a reliable way to get the most effective stat combo within a reasonable amount of time. The only point about this system I feel strongly enough about is the impossibility to min/max your gear without huge amounts of consistent luck. And I'm saying that as someone who despises min/maxing. You don't fight the issue by making it nearly impossible to do, but actually give the players real alternatives by continuously balancing the gear itself. This feels like an attempt to monetize game balance with slot machine mechanics and frankly makes me feel embarrassed for you. Might as well pay plat to upgrade my old guns if that is what it takes.

Edited by AuroraSonicBoom
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Hello.... I kinda dont like the Riven Mods.... but i think its kinda too late to remove them...

 

Am editing what i initially said coz i just found out what exactly are the Riven Mods and i kinda like it but i think its way convoluted....

 

So basically instead of DE "buffing" each weapon as they see fit, they are giving us the option to "buff" each weapon as "WE" see fit within certains restrictions...

 

With that in mind.... I REAAAAALLLLY LOVE IT!!!!!!

 

Kudos DE

 

cheers

Edited by KriLanze
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These seem to be steps in the right direction. The community is rather stirred up (both for and against) many aspects of this new system, and I apologize on their behalf for any angry posts disparaging your commitment to continue to giving us a good gaming experience.

Since I found this thread while thinking about what I would suggest to make the Riven mod system better, I'll add my two cents here.

  • First, in keeping with the idea that Riven mods are supposed to cause players to revisit weapons they overlooked as not being worth their time, I have to suggest making Riven mods untradable. I happen to like being able to trade for ones I'll actually use, but it better fits the stated purpose if they are locked.
  • Second, since player inventories are restricted, players often sell weapons they didn't like. Receiving a Riven mod for one of those weapons is unlikely to make them craft the weapon a second time. Therefore I suggest giving the mod drops a bias toward weapons the players already own or have never owned, with a bias against weapons based on the time spent using them. That way players are most likely to get Riven mods for weapons they felt were good enough to keep but not good enough to use regularly.
  • Third, the available stat bonuses need to be tailored somewhat. As others have said many times, getting a completely randomized mod is rarely any good. Percentage bonuses to damage types a weapon lacks, negative damage causing the weapon to do nothing at all, and negative multishot causing the weapon not to fire should all be removed.
  • Fourth, the bonuses and negatives should be taken into account for the mod cost. 18 points is a lot for a mod that has only one or two useful stats. If each stat were assigned a point value, the total cost could be calculated easily.
  • Lastly, I suggest allowing users to dissolve Riven mods to regain half the kuva put into rerolling them. That way we could give up on a mod that just isn't producing any useful results and regain a portion of the grinding that went into it.

Regardless of what happens with this new system, thank you for working to give us something new and interesting, and thank you for continuing to iterate on it and improve it.

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17 minutes ago, Machine_Head said:

thats just it it was your feedback on the sheer amount needed that caused the change so shouldn't the knowledge that because of that you wont need as much in the future be compensation enough

Firstly let me clarify - I am happy that they change the system. But something is worth mentioning to the devs that the players who had no idea such change is coming, thus giving in the the massive grind wall should NOT be sh*t on.

The plat we spend or getting these Riven mod, the initial game time we spend on grinding out these random Kuva spawn, the absursd amount of Kuva we spent (that would at least support another 20 re-roll in the new system), the feedback *we* gave the devs to make them chamge *in the first place* ..... are all totally thrown out of water by a simple "you will grind less IN THE FUTURE".

I am not even asking for a full refund on ny actual money and Kuva. I am just asking for a bit of nice gesture. I am not even remotely close to many who spend nearly 100k Kuva already. What about them? Really? No nothing?

Edited by Nekrosmas

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By the way @[DE]Rebecca, guys please consider changing up the system maybe? Instead of +multiplicative stats, how about make them additive? That way weapons with bad crit chance or status would benefit more from it.. for example:

Let's say weapon has 5% crit chance and people want to use it.. but it's just bad, because of that low crit chance.

If the riven mod gave +15% crit as additive to the base 5%, that would mean 20% base crit = people using that weapon again! Thus people would be able to apply their multiplicative mods on the 'new' base crit chance and get decent crit chance! :) 

Instead of.. 5% crit chance weapon + 127.9% (multiplicative stat) =  11.395% no one would still use that weapon.. I hope you understood my blabbering and take this into consideration.

Just my two cents,

~Jester.

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2 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

As someone who sees many problems with the current iteration, I am quite happy with this announcements.

The idea to accept or decline a roll, in particular, is awfully welcomed and a good idea in general: If you cant ensure a better result, at least you can ensure it doesnt get worse.

 

Um accepting or declining a roll is 100% useless. It might be a "feel good" measure but it has no practical value. You still spent the Kuva. If the new roll is worse than the existing (the only use case that having this option is valid for), then two things will happen.

1) You will accept the worse stats on the mod, and end up with a Riven mod you want to reroll.

2) You will decline the roll, and end up with a Riven mod you want to reroll (because you already tried).

How does this help you? The only time this helps is if you are your "last roll" before it becomes too expensive. in every other case you are re-rolling that mod whether you accept or decline, and you are spending the kuva if you accept or decline.

 

If you keep the kuva then it allows lots of rerolling for high stats, I doubt that is what DE means. Seems like it will be spent, but you can not accept a worse mod.

Edited by Shockwave-
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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Some of this Dev Workshop will be a continuation from Part 1 (https://forums.warframe.com/topic/719453-spoiler-dev-workshop-new-mods/), but the rest will cover some more clear changes coming to Riven Mods.

Part 1 Primer: Riven Disposition.
You may recall we talked about 'Riven Disposition' on Monday. Here's the repeated information in a nutshell: 

- 'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.
- This modification will also affect existing Riven Mods to reflect our desire to give new life to ‘discarded’ weapons in a unique way, and not increase the power of the top tier ones.
- Prepare to see a difference in stats of existing Riven Mods in an upcoming hotfix.

This means that existing and future Rivens will have stats that skew based on a given weapon.  

What have we changed already?
The past couple of Hotfixes have had more fixes than changes, but we have released some iteration.

- Riven Mods now have more information available after they have been Cycled and Unveiled so more can be deduced at a glance. This includes Mastery Rank and Item compatibility, as well as how many Cycles have occurred of a given Riven.     
- Tweaked and removed some of the more frustrating challenges for Riven Unveiling.     
                
What changes are coming soon?
The following changes are coming soon:

- You will only have to Unveil a Riven Mod one time: on first discovery.
- When Cycling a Riven with Kuva, you can now choose to "Accept" or "Decline" a Cycle result.
- Kuva Cycling costs have been reduced significantly.

Before:
Cycle 1: 900
Cycle 2: 1000
Cycle 3: 1300
Cycle 4: 1800
Cycle 5: 2500
Cycle 6: 3400
Cycle 7: 4500
Cycle 8: 5800
Cycle 9: 7300
Cycle 10: 9000

After:
Cycle 1: 900
Cycle 2: 1000
Cycle 3: 1200
Cycle 4: 1400
Cycle 5: 1700
Cycle 6: 2000
Cycle 7: 2350
Cycle 8: 2750
Cycle 9: 3200
Cycle 10: 3600

- Accessing Kuva Siphons is being experimented with to not be a random chance in a tileset, but rather a guaranteed spawn on planets when the Fortress is in the vicinity (like Fomorians and Negators) with a possible cooldown. To be determined!

RNG Mods in Warframe!?
We should certainly take some time to speak to the doom that RNG Mods being a sign of nefarious dealings. While it may pre-date many accounts, Warframe already had RNG Mods in the game. In fact RNG Mods used to be the only type of Mod you could find for Upgrading your gear. We switched to a static Mod system in Update 7, and now 12 Major Updates later we are revisiting the concept with completely different intentions: an End-Game option rather than the only path. 

Thanks for reading, stay tuned for more updates!

 

Excellent! I love the idea of Kuva Siphons cycyling based on vicinity! Not only is it more lore-friendly but it makes farming kuva more fresh and friendlier as well!

4 questions:

1)Have you considered passives and special effects as Riven attributes

2)How will the riven limit expand to other weapons? Is it going to be 15 per weapon?

3)Will we be able to cycle specific parts of the mod, like weapon, attributes separately?

4)If we discard the roll, will Kuva be refunded, and if we roll again will the cost increase?

Edited by Evanescent
derp

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7 minutes ago, Syvarin said:
  • Lastly, I suggest allowing users to dissolve Riven mods to regain half the kuva put into rerolling them. That way we could give up on a mod that just isn't producing any useful results and regain a portion of the grinding that went into it.

Regardless of what happens with this new system, thank you for working to give us something new and interesting, and thank you for continuing to iterate on it and improve it.

I'd prefer fusing two rerolled mod (say rolled at least X times) into one fresh new random mod for a new random weapon. If you've rolled it out that far and given up, twice, you should lose the kuva and two riven mods, but get one new mod to start working on.

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1 minute ago, Shockwave- said:

Um accepting or declining a roll is 100% useless. It might be a "feel good" measure but it has no practical value. You still spent the Kuva. If the new roll is worse than the existing (the only use case that having this option is valid for), then two things will happen.

1) You will accept the worse stats on the mod, and end up with a Riven mod you want to reroll.

2) You will decline the roll, and end up with a Riven mod you want to reroll (because you already tried).

How does this help you? The only time this helps is if you are your "last roll" before it becomes too expensive. in every other case you are re-rolling that mod whether you accept or decline, and you are spending the kuva if you accept or decline.

There is a use for it though. Let's say you decide to take a risk and reroll a weapon with + crit + multishot - damage.. and you want to get something better~ You don't risk on losing those stats over some worse kind ones. See what I mean? It's still better than losing the stats forever into the RNG abyss.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

This means that existing and future Rivens will have stats that skew based on a given weapon.

It's good you want to make less powerful weapons great again (™?) but doing it with RNG rolls still seems like a terrible idea.

Wouldn't be better to have something like weapons scale/powering up beyond mastery 30, with custom scaling for each weapon (less powerfull one will scale more than more powerful ones).

Create exilus slots for weaker weapons, ie. weaker to have 2+ exilus-like slots vs 0/1 in stronger weapons, this way mods wouldn't have to be skewed for weapons
 
Please don't make system rely on RNG and then on top of that extra tweaking for some weapons more than others.
ome players will feel others are more favoured by Life/Destiny/Karma/RNGesus/Lotus/etc, salt and disappointment will follow

 

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

- You will only have to Unveil a Riven Mod one time: on first discovery.
- When Cycling a Riven with Kuva, you can now choose to "Accept" or "Decline" a Cycle result.
- Kuva Cycling costs have been reduced significantly.

that's a good change, looking forward to see how make it sense accepting/declining but it's a great start to see more players using it and outcome of it
will that also cycle weapon it's connected to or weapons-link is permanent once unveiled?

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13 minutes ago, KriLanze said:

So basically instead of DE "buffing" each weapon as they see fit, they are giving us the option to "buff" each weapon as "WE" see fit within certains restrictions...

This is exactly how I'm viewing it. 

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Please don't add a Cooldown for the Kuva Siphon.

If you must add a cooldown, then turn the Kuva Siphon into an endless objective so we can farm as much as we need at a given time rather than setting an alarm and dropping what we're doing elsewhere to go and farm Kuva once before returning to our previous task. Furthermore, finding a group to farm Kuva will be significantly harder if people have to wait for cooldowns, making the whole affair increasingly frustrating with repetition.

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I think Riven Mods fail utterly to accomplish their purpose, with the exception of new players getting a Riven mod before getting the weapon for it. I don't think highly randomized mods are going to cause anyone to go back and try weapons they don't like. If I get a mod for a Glaxion, well I don't own one, already trashed it to free up space. I'm not rebuilding it unless i have a KILLER mod for it that does alot. One that makes me go... wow I HAVE to try this. I didn't even potato many of the weapons early on because the stats weren't good, clan mate advice said they couldn't be made good, etc. I hadn't the poatoes to waste. So i don't even have a feel for what many of the weapons could do with a catalyst. So again, that Mod better be very enticing to make me rebuild, and catalyze and forma a weapon i'm 50/50 on not even using with the mod on it.

I'm CERTAINLY not spending Kuva to reroll that mod I got to make it KILLER for a weapon I don't have and didn't want the first time.

So unless i get an awesome mod on the first reveal, that mod is trash. It's never going to make me look twice at the Glaxion,. and I'm saving my kuva for Riven mods for the weapons i like to use, unless i have a huge glut of Kuva, which seems unlikely. Since I've used and trashed most of the weapons in the game and only held on to 4-5 primaries I use, all but 4-5 Riven mods won't be used.

While in the short term people may talk about new builds and such and some players will rebuild or kept the weapons, I think that dies down and people return to their favorite weapons. I don't think mods are how you get people to go back, buffing the old weapons permanently is.

Edited by Shockwave-
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2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is exactly how I'm viewing it. 

They're giving random chance the option to buff a weapon, you're just spending the time and effort so it might at some point line up with numerically optimal stats. Big difference.

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13 minutes ago, Jester. said:

There is a use for it though. Let's say you decide to take a risk and reroll a weapon with + crit + multishot - damage.. and you want to get something better~ You don't risk on losing those stats over some worse kind ones. See what I mean? It's still better than losing the stats forever into the RNG abyss.

I suppose if you roll it 10 times and never get anything better and eventually have to settle for that then you're right didn't think about declining 10 or 20 times. That's true. You can decline the roll all the way out to when the Kuva cost does get prohibitive and you at least have that mod. Was thinking you weren't risking a "good" mod becuase you wouldn't currently but I guess if this is in place you actually could more freely risk your "good" mod for a "better" one.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

<Snip>

 

Will we ever know the top number for the stats? Will we ever know what is possible in order to judge what we have vs what could be? Is the max toxin damage bonus 100 or 200? If I have 90% toxin damage on my Simulor mod and the max is 100, i'm good, if it's 200 i'm below half so rerolling is a better risk. Not knowing the risk vs reward is dodgy. We should at least know what we can possibly get. Even Vegas tells you the odds of winning, I just want to know the possible prize.

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Why are the challenges after rerolling removed? 

Sounds more interesting than throwing money- er Kura - at it.

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I actually really love the idea of kuva siphons showing up near the fortress. As long we can always access kuva siphons somewhere on the star chart, I'm all for this change.

I also really like the idea of riven mods in general. The original implementation may have left a lot to be desired, but I am eagerly awaiting the changes to come. The only issues I still have that weren't really addressed in this post are the rarity of riven mods and the 15 mod max.

I've played most sortie missions since they were introduced, and my luck with sorties has never been all that great. Aside from the non-repeatable stuff (lenses, nehza, and weapon parts) all I've ever gotten from previous sortie seasons has been endo. The other day I got "lucky" and got a riven mod from sorties...that ended up being for the deth machine rifle. Considering the rng that's involved in getting a mod for a weapons that you even like/have, not to mention the rng that goes into whether or not that mod will end up being any good (mine was increased zoom, status duration, and critical damage...on a sentinel weapon with 1% status chance and 5% critical chance), it would be really nice to have some non rng way to get riven mods. I like the suggestions I've been seeing about a weekly mission from Teshin, as well as potentially buying mods from syndicates. The only other suggestion I have would be a very, VERY rare drop from something that's been introduced in TWW (kuva siphons, kuva guardians, storage caches at the fortress, rotation c on endless fortress missions, etc)

And finally, the 15 mod max. While this isn't really an issue yet since most players don't have anywhere near 15 riven mods, this will be an issue in the future. A lot of warframe players (including myself) are collectors. I have more than 15 rifles, and I'd like to eventually get to the point where I have at least one riven mod for each of them. And even if 15 the mod max was fine for rifles, it'll be nowhere near enough when other weapon types get added to the pool. Frankly, I don't see any good reason to have this limitation in place given all the stuff we have to do just get a mod we even like. I know the reason given in the last workshop was "limitations encourages creativity and choice", but I disagree. This doesn't encourage choice, it limits it. And with the limits in place, players will just end up discarding mods for weapons that they've already decided are trash, taking any "creativity" the stats offered with them.

I really, really want to like riven mods. And while I have many criticisms of the system as is, I am looking forward to future changes

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I love these ideas and really look forward to see them implemented =)

Just please be careful with this, as there are weapons with relatively high mastery rank but low stats:

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

- 'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.

 

I hope those two criteria do not contradict each other.

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