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[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 2!


[DE]Rebecca
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I didn't really read about what Riven mods were until I got my first one and unveiled it - I got a terrible, terrible mod for a sentinel weapon I'd sold a long time ago. A sentinel rifle.

It felt bad.

A friend of mine also rolled their mod.

Another sentinel weapon. For which they did the 30 headshots while taking no damage challenge.

It felt really bad. It wasn't fun.

So we decided to run a sortie and see if we could get another Riven mod to roll. Instead, we ran into a kuva siphon while duoing the exterminate part of the sortie. We were crushed and got no kuva by level 70 siphon guards. I did get 2000 endo, though.

My playing companion then told me they were no longer interested in playing Warframe anymore. This wasn't a fun or engaging experience to run up against these mechanics and have no obvious reward, rhyme, or path to success.

I've banked a lot of hours in Warframe, but this update has taken away any sense of control. Any sense of progression and achievement. Any sense that what I'm doing will have a payoff in an interesting way that will make me stronger. It isn't like other loot lotteries where I'm excited when I roll the dice.

Reducing and changing how kuva is obtained is a good first step, but I have to say that the Brozime Riven mod video, while really nasty in some points, is essentially how I feel about these new "progression" mechanics. This dev workshop post is encouraging because it shows you guys are thinking about what to do to compromise between making it a totally defined reward path that offers you no economic/growth benefits and offering enough RNG that people must continue to play. I promise you I get that.

I look forward to what I hope are aggressive iterations on the Riven system so it is more interactive, rewarding, and FEELS like an achievement when you unveil or reroll a mod.

But if you bury it too hard and too deep beneath these kinds of disenfranchising mechanics, it sucks the fun right out.

You might say... it's a fun siphon.

Edited by Rydia
Caps are hard, grammar is harder.
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5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

- Accessing Kuva Siphons is being experimented with to not be a random chance in a tileset, but rather a guaranteed spawn on planets when the Fortress is in the vicinity (like Fomorians and Negators) with a possible cooldown. To be determined!

HOLY BUTTS THE FORTRESS MOVES I DIDN'T EVEN NOTICE

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7 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:


- 'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.

-What about weapons that are pretty bad but have a godly prime version, like the Boltor? Will you take into consideration the most powerful version of the weapon?

-Also, the quote above, what "mastery rank" does it refer to? The player that unlocks the riven mod? or the mastery rank of the riven mod? Because the second option seems to add a rather very unpleasant and unfair "choice" if that's the case. No one would start re-rolling stats on a mastery rank 8 riven mod for a certain weapon, instead they'd find the highest mastery rank riven mod for that weapon and start re-rolling that, thus making part of all that content a massive waste, since no one would want the weaker version. Maybe make it so mastery rank changes depending on what weapon the riven mod is for, for example if it's a Braton mod, it's MR8, if it's a Tonkor mod it's MR16, that way you don' throw more than half of the Riven mods out the window because they're just sub-par versions of what they could be. And not to mention it would be impossible to find the weapon you like AND with the highest mastery requirement. 

And if you're scared that not many players will have access to the Riven Mods they want, then simply let us pick the MR of the riven mod upon unveiling, higher MR = better stats, lower MR = lower stats but newer players can also enjoy the system as soon as MR 5 after completing the quest.

-Also, please, PLEASE remove the 15 mod limit, or increase it, DRAMATICALLY, I'm talking about a 150 limit or so, it makes no sense to limit creativity and variety in such a way, and forcing people to remove a riven mod for a beloved weapon just because a new weapon was released and they want a riven mod for that one is not nice. :sad:

-And of course, add more ways to acquire Riven mods. Maybe add an extra optional sortie-like mission that can be played once a day. Make it solo and make it extremely hard, with all sorts of interesting modifiers, for example "exterminate mission in which enemies can only be killed with stealth finishers" or "defence missions where pod takes no damage" or "survival mission in which you take no health damage with toxic clouds throughout the level"...anything really, go crazy, make it hard, but at the end we get a second shot at the sortie reward pool.

EDIT: After reading this https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/5dbhkd/riven_mod_math_please_tell_me_i_have_messed_up/ I now really need to make a point on how literally no one will probably ever get the mod they truly want for a weapon they want in the current stat of the system. Which made me think, how about with every re-roll we got to lock in one of the stats so it doesn't get rolled again if the mod has 2 positive stats, and 2 locks if the mod has 3 positive stats. It would still take an insanely long amount of time to even get the mod you want for 1 weapon, but it's a step in the right direction. that assuming you don't have the wild variation between 60% to 200% you see in some stats and instead is based on the mastery rank of the mode as explained above.

EDIT 2:

 

Now, I do have one thing of concern about what was said in the 1st workshop: Concerning the use of "mod diversity" and to allow people to try mods and what not. I believe it would be best to have a separate mod slot dedicated to riven only. This allows the player to add onto a build, without compromising it, and makes all riven mods useful, even if the stats are not at optimal quality.

^ That is actually not bad, I'd totally use a magazine size + fire rate + reload speed mod on my Tonkor instead of the damage + multishot + damage to infested that i have now, since it already kills everything in 1 shot, but right now ditching one of the mods in the build to put a Riven mod in place would not be a viable thing to do since it would decrease my damage rather drastically, and I'd rather use the damage riven mod instead of utility. That equals to VASTLY reduced grind since people would be happy with a lesser mod as well, much like Exilus is for warframes, Riven should be for weapons. The only problem I could see with this is that even with 8 formas, the Riven mod would NEVER fit since it costs so much to equip as an extra besides the already 8 mods, so it will need reduced cost drastically. I'm talking 1 cost at rank 0, going up by 1 per rank, even that would probably make it unusable on some weapon builds since I have 7 forma weapons with 0 capacity left already.

This Riven Mod system has so much potential for an awesome time sink that people would actually like if DE will play their cards right.

Edited by Sebastianx
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So how badly is my Latron mod going to get nerfed? Not too hard I hope... I used to use the Latron exclusively when I first started and this mod really renewed my interest in all of its variants.

 

eKEfdVa.png

Edited by Nyrakav
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6 minutes ago, Nyrakav said:

So how badly is my Latron mod going to get nerfed? Not too hard I hope... I used to use the Latron exclusively when I first started and this mod really renewed my interest in all of its variants.

 

eKEfdVa.png

Move all the decimals points to the left once. lol

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5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

...

Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement,

...

The following changes are coming soon:

- You will only have to Unveil a Riven Mod one time: on first discovery.
- When Cycling a Riven with Kuva, you can now choose to "Accept" or "Decline" a Cycle result.
- Kuva Cycling costs have been reduced significantly.
...

Is mastery rank necessary? 

Yay for reduced cycling cost though

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https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/5dbhkd/riven_mod_math_please_tell_me_i_have_messed_up/

I'm not even going to bother checking his math, because even if he's off by a factor of 100, you're still looking at 80+ YEARS of grinding to guarantee getting a mod for a weapon you want with three rolls you want, AND ON TOP OF THAT, THIS IS IGNORING THE % VARIANCE. The RNG has to get cut down massively somewhere. This is entirely unreasonable.

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3 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

They're giving random chance the option to buff a weapon, you're just spending the time and effort so it might at some point line up with numerically optimal stats. Big difference.

This still doesn't change how I'm viewing the situation of the riven mods. If I find one i like, then cool. If I don't get one I like, I'm still cool. Why, because I already have the gear and setup that I like to play. Anything extra is just icing on the cake for me. Warframe is a form of entertainment. When it stops providing that entertainment I will move on. :D

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3 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

Um accepting or declining a roll is 100% useless. It might be a "feel good" measure but it has no practical value. You still spent the Kuva. If the new roll is worse than the existing (the only use case that having this option is valid for), then two things will happen.

1) You will accept the worse stats on the mod, and end up with a Riven mod you want to reroll.

2) You will decline the roll, and end up with a Riven mod you want to reroll (because you already tried).

How does this help you? The only time this helps is if you are your "last roll" before it becomes too expensive. in every other case you are re-rolling that mod whether you accept or decline, and you are spending the kuva if you accept or decline.

 

If you keep the kuva then it allows lots of rerolling for high stats, I doubt that is what DE means. Seems like it will be spent, but you can not accept a worse mod.

You are wrong. Sometimes you have good riven mod for weapon you like, but after seeing all these +crit chance, +crit damage, +multishot screenshots want to try to get better option. 

With these changes we will be able to test our luck without fear of loosing something good we already have.

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30 minutes ago, Nyrakav said:

So how badly is my Latron mod going to get nerfed? Not too hard I hope... I used to use the Latron exclusively when I first started and this mod really renewed my interest in all of its variants.

 

eKEfdVa.png

 

wow! so these riven mods ARE too powerful. 

(if you belong to these 0.5 % who beat RNG) 

Edited by Vicious_Vipa
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6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

-snip-

 

This certainly is a step in the right direction, Thank you so much DE!

Now, I do have one thing of concern about what was said in the 1st workshop: Concerning the use of "mod diversity" and to allow people to try mods and what not. I believe it would be best to have a separate mod slot dedicated to riven only. This allows the player to add onto a build, without compromising it, and makes all riven mods useful, even if the stats are not at optimal quality.

Secondly, as stated before, please allow us to have another more guaranteed way to obtain riven mods, capable of completely remixing a riven mod by say, fusion two riven mods together, and lastly, increase cap of riven mod limit, possibly tie it to mastery rank.

This would push riven mods into a better direction, and to compensate for the dedicated slot, perhaps increase the utility of the mods, and not just have base damage stats.

Also, as a wild suggestion, would it be possible to allow us to fuse other ordinary mods into a riven mod, for a better chance of the next roll having those modifier stats, but not the exact value. There are tons of regular mods and everyone has duplicate of them, if we can use them to modify the roll chances of riven mod, this would greatly increase the usefulness of duplicate mods.

 

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6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

- Accessing Kuva Siphons is being experimented with to not be a random chance in a tileset, but rather a guaranteed spawn on planets when the Fortress is in the vicinity (like Fomorians and Negators) with a possible cooldown. To be determined!

 

Because that's all you learnt with the Fomorian "event" or it's co-joining events.

Edited by Kinjeto
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And none of those changes is going to take away the lottery aspect of Riven Mods, they are so random and their permutations are so insanely numerous that literally only one in every million players will get a mod with exactly the properties that he or she wants. You need to change the system so that players can pick the properties that they want out of the mods, this is really the only way in which these riven mods would not suck.

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25 minutes ago, EternoRetorno said:

And none of those changes is going to take away the lottery aspect of Riven Mods, they are so random and their permutations are so insanely numerous that literally only one in every million players will get a mod with exactly the properties that he or she wants. You need to change the system so that players can pick the properties that they want out of the mods, this is really the only way in which these riven mods would not suck.

Uh i'm not sure if i'm interpreting what I just read correctly but it clearly says:

- 'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.
- This modification will also affect existing Riven Mods to reflect our desire to give new life to ‘discarded’ weapons in a unique way, and not increase the power of the top tier ones.
- Prepare to see a difference in stats of existing Riven Mods in an upcoming hotfix.
 

This means that existing and future Rivens will have stats that skew based on a given weapon.

Even though some of the lottery aspects may remain it's best that way, because then the kuva resource has more uses in the long run because no one is gonna try and get rivens for every single weapon in the game even if they could (REMOVE THE LIMIT I BEG OF YOU) once everyone has their rivens for weapons they like that are bad they wont need rivens anymore. By using the new riven disposition system DE can calibrate how riven mods will end up once they're unlocked hopefully if the riven is for a bad weapon it'll have a buff to one of the weapons best stats (hopefully prioritizing status and crit chance as well so weapons with 1 element as the main damage type won't just get a raw damage buff). Picking the exact properties would take away kuva's purpose as it's only being used for rivens and some weapons atm. ALSO DE just announced they would reduced kuva cycle costs therefore giving kuva even less of a purpose.

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I would invite everyone to consider that the entire point of this system is to provide players with unique opportunities to specialise in the use of an unusual weapon otherwise not in meta. It is not there to simply increase the peak performance of top tier or even good tier weapons. Utility effects like Zoom, Mag size, status duration, may still have a role to play on those at best. With the addition of riven disposition we should see the system be actualised something close to fairly. That said, we could certainly stand to see some minimisation of stats like +damage and +crit since they are likely to be shredded whenever damage 3.0 is added. Maybe prevent +damage, and +crit from appearing on the same cycle of a mod?. More interesting and unusual modifiers like status damage like others have suggested would be nice to see.

I think the current Riven limit is in the right ballpark, it encourages trading to establish some level of ubiquity and dynamism among players, while preventing them from aiming for a living riven armory. If I was spitballing, I would add another 8-ish slots each time a new category are added (IE Pistol etc.) and maybe offer a couple of riven capacity as a reward for completing some of the more obscure and comprehensive tasks in the game (Like kuria and fragment collection etc.)

With respect to Kuva, I think having the Fortress cycle through 'proximity' to one or two planets at a time to focus activity into certain areas is a good idea, but I'm not sure you want to trigger the kind of feeding frenzy that results from it being time gated. You did, after all, already express dissatisfaction with how Baro Ki'Teer was effecting the player base prior to cooling down his pace a little.

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2 hours ago, Sebastianx said:

-And of course, add more ways to acquire Riven mods. Maybe add an extra optional sortie-like mission that can be played once a day. Make it solo and make it extremely hard, with all sorts of interesting modifiers, for example "exterminate mission in which enemies can only be killed with stealth finishers" or "defence missions where pod takes no damage" or "survival mission in which you take no health damage with toxic clouds throughout the level"...anything really, go crazy, make it hard, but at the end we get a second shot at the sortie reward pool.

how about throwing em into the nightmare reward pool?

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