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Potential Limbo talks tomorrow on Devstream


Awesome_Arab
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Considering one of our recent Redtexts spelled out the words BUFF LIMBO I think It's safe to assume that in the next devstream we will be getting some insight into what DE have in store for our Hatted Gentleman of the other plane.  
  
Now Limbo is a delicate flower, his concept is so vast and his skillset is so empty right now, we may be in for a complete redesign. There are many many roads DE can take Limbo, and we're gonna be the ones to play with it, once they settle on one.  
  
We all know how much DE pride themselves in their community interaction. So instead of recreating the flood of posts from the Vacuum Within and more recently you-know-whats, I'm gonna start a Megathread on both the subreddit and the forums, and I ask that the mods of both sticky the respective thread.  
  
So, tomorrow, given that DE showcase their new Limbo on the devstream, I will start a thread to hold all Limbo related discussion. I will also have polls regarding generalised opinions on different aspects.  
  
If it turns out the thread isn't needed tomorrow, I will put it up whenever DE do reveal their new Limbo.

 

Reddit mirror: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/5dhc5p/potential_limbo_talks_tomorrow_on_devstream/

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the red text was just about a fix they did for limbo, rather than anything else. (theres like a million other things they need to fix with limbo that they have ignored for over a year now) 

I think your just wishful thinking atm, they have ignored limbo for ages.  most of the stream will all be war-within feedback etc. 

but you never know. 

Spoiler

 

 

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54 minutes ago, morningstar999 said:

the red text was just about a fix they did for limbo, rather than anything else. (theres like a million other things they need to fix with limbo that they have ignored for over a year now) 

I think your just wishful thinking atm, they have ignored limbo for ages.  most of the stream will all be war-within feedback etc. 

but you never know. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Nahh mate, did you not see the cheeky red text? It literally spells out BUFF LIMBO, they even capitalized the first letters for you.

Limbo is definitely going to be discussed in the next devstream.

 

 

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Well I certainly hope so. In the past they usually announce ahead of time when they want to showcase frame reworks, and we've seen Scott in the past two Devstreams saying he's been experimenting with Limbo but with nothing concrete to show due to the frame's complexity.

Between the upcoming Ash deluxe skin with Blade Storm rework, the Focus rework, Infested & Bard Frames due later this year, fixing Riven mods, there's a lot on his plate right now.

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7 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Well I certainly hope so. In the past they usually announce ahead of time when they want to showcase frame reworks, and we've seen Scott in the past two Devstreams saying he's been experimenting with Limbo but with nothing concrete to show due to the frame's complexity.

Between the upcoming Ash deluxe skin with Blade Storm rework, the Focus rework, Infested & Bard Frames due later this year, fixing Riven mods, there's a lot on his plate right now.

Thanks for pointing this out, it's mostly accurate. There probably won't be much concrete to show Friday if at all. The other items you listed are definitely competing for attention.

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5 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Thanks for pointing this out, it's mostly accurate. There probably won't be much concrete to show Friday if at all. The other items you listed are definitely competing for attention.

Well I'm in no rush here, and I hope you guys aren't either. But if and when you do show anything I'll be there.

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2 hours ago, Awesome_Arab said:

Considering one of our recent Redtexts spelled out the words BUFF LIMBO I think It's safe to assume that in the next devstream we will be getting some insight into what DE have in store for our Hatted Gentleman of the other plane.  
  
Now Limbo is a delicate flower, his concept is so vast and his skillset is so empty right now, we may be in for a complete redesign. There are many many roads DE can take Limbo, and we're gonna be the ones to play with it, once they settle on one.  
  
We all know how much DE pride themselves in their community interaction. So instead of recreating the flood of posts from the Vacuum Within and more recently you-know-whats, I'm gonna start a Megathread on both the subreddit and the forums, and I ask that the mods of both sticky the respective thread.  
  
So, tomorrow, given that DE showcase their new Limbo on the devstream, I will start a thread to hold all Limbo related discussion. I will also have polls regarding generalised opinions on different aspects.  
  
If it turns out the thread isn't needed tomorrow, I will put it up whenever DE do reveal their new Limbo.

 

Reddit mirror: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/5dhc5p/potential_limbo_talks_tomorrow_on_devstream/

The problem is.

The impression I've seen is that Digital Extremes neither know nor especially care about what to do with Limbo,

In a previous instance they talked about reworking Limbo, this was made quite clear, with a few moments of unhappy, uncaring 'well, iunno, maybe we'll just change everything we don't really like it he's very niche right now'. Then spent 6-10 times longer, enthusiastically talking about how to pronounce Niche.

The attitude worries me. I've spent 36% of my 2100 hours in the game using Limbo. It's my main frame.

With changes to recent frames being... 50/50 at best, and they had a clear idea of what they were doing...

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16 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Thanks for pointing this out, it's mostly accurate. There probably won't be much concrete to show Friday if at all. The other items you listed are definitely competing for attention.

Thanks for the confirmation. Y'all have done amazing work and are still going at it. Just don't overwork yourselves, catch some z's, and grab a beer or Double Double!

Still, I am excited for Limbo's rework. It would be superb if a Dev Workshop showed up before any finalised changes so the community can help Scott out.

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1 minute ago, DarkOvion said:

With changes to recent frames being... 50/50 at best, and they had a clear idea of what they were doing...

This is exactly why I'm doing this, we need to clearly, objectively and without a doubt say;

We, as the majority of the community, do / do not like the direction you are taking Limbo with this rework, and we want you to stick with it / change it. (Delete as necessary)

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27 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Thanks for pointing this out, it's mostly accurate. There probably won't be much concrete to show Friday if at all. The other items you listed are definitely competing for attention.

I really, really hope that at the very least, as a team (having said you're not sure what to do with it) you understand that Limbo is about finesse.

At the moment, the frame you created allows for field control - which is relatively unique in the game.

You get to pick and choose your battles, you can keep the team alive and dominate single targets at will.

Whatever changes happen, he needs to be able to maintain his own energy economy, enter/exit the Rift Plane at will, add/remove single targets to the Rift Plane at will, Create a mobile defensive position, and hopefully, increase his damage output.

Really the best things to do with him overall, would be move Rift Surge to his Passive (preferably affected by power strength) then combine Banish and Rift Walk as the first (or second) power (tap for banish, hold a moment for Rift Walk).

That gives 2 'slots' for new powers, and retains his current roles.

 

 - Also, consistency would be fantastic.

Edited by DarkOvion
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2 hours ago, DarkOvion said:

The impression I've seen is that Digital Extremes neither know nor especially care about what to do with Limbo,

We've been explicit:
Limbo will be one of the most difficult frames to review because the people that love him know how to use him well, and love him a lot. So we don't want to forfeit that in favour of those who gave him a try and weren't quite sure why they weren't sold. It's not easy trying to please all parties, but we have to respect the crowd that loves what he offers in his current form (like you).

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3 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We've been explicit:
Limbo will be one of the most difficult frames to review because the people that love him know how to use him well, and love him a lot. So we don't want to forfeit that in favour of those who gave him a try and weren't quite sure why they weren't sold. It's not easy trying to please all parties, but we have to respect the crowd that loves what he offers in his current form (like you).

3 skills that perform the same function and 1 skill that performs no function.

Find a way to condense these 4 skills into less skill slots. That way you retain current Limbo, and have slots to give him new abilities.

You can't lose something if you don't take anything away. As long as cast times, and usage conveniences allow.

Edited by Awesome_Arab
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2 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We've been explicit:
Limbo will be one of the most difficult frames to review because the people that love him know how to use him well, and love him a lot. So we don't want to forfeit that in favour of those who gave him a try and weren't quite sure why they weren't sold. It's not easy trying to please all parties, but we have to respect the crowd that loves what he offers in his current form (like you).

Which is good that you want to retain that current feel.

It can just be concerning when the attitude when it's brought up on stream has been eeEEEeeh.

But hey, if you want anyone to Beta Test Limbo that's spent.... far more time than is sane using Limbo... I'm happy to put some time aside for that.

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1 minute ago, DarkOvion said:

Which is good that you want to retain that current feel.

It can just be concerning when the attitude when it's brought up on stream has been eeEEEeeh.

But hey, if you want anyone to Beta Test Limbo that's spent.... far more time than is sane using Limbo... I'm happy to put some time aside for that.

If you beta test for a beta, does that make you an alpha tester?

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2 minutes ago, Awesome_Arab said:

3 skills that perform the same function and 1 skill that performs no function.

Find a way to condense these 4 skills into less skill slots. That way you retain current Limbo, and have slots to give him new abilities.

Huh?

I'm not sure how it's 3 that do the same + one useless.

I constantly use all 4 skills.

Banish - putting allies in the rift for protection. Putting single targets in the rift to end them.

Rift Walk - putting myself in the rift for my own protection, so I can live there.

 - combining these into one would be entirely viable. Tap for Banish, Hold for Rift Walk.

Rift Surge - Is invaluable, especially at higher levels, for making Limbo compete. That 3-7x damage boost in the rift is basically required at all times past a certain point.

 - Again, it's important, so I'd be fine with it being removed ONLY if it was added to, or replaced Limbo's Passive. (again, preferably affected by Power Strength - Passives as powers should be affected by mods I think)

Cataclysm - Bubble. short-term (up to 70ish seconds) of invulnerablity for the defence target of your choice.

 - Again, very iconic for a Limbo.

So you could bring it down to 2 free powers easy enough, without affecting how Limbo feels, you'd just need a new 2 and 3.

He also needs a little more consistency in some things - i.e. Everything in the rift cannot interact with anything outside the rift at all, or all things can interact with certain objects.

At the moment - some objects can, some can't, some players cant interact with consoles, while enemies can, etc.

Internal consistency is very important.

 

Remember - Limbos powers are entirely about Field Control, which is near unique in the game.

It's not stealth, it's not crowd control, it's not insane DPS, he's a Gentleman Duelist, standing outside reality choosing how and when to strike.

 

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I think the main feature for the devs to determine would be when Limbo's redundant abilities are fused together namely Rift Walk and Rift Surge for sure (and possibly the passive too), what would be the new power (and Passive) that would be added to Limbo's kit?

Would the new ability fit in as 1st, 2nd or 3rd? and where would Banish and the new combined ability sit, with Cataclysm staying as the 4th?

I'm placing my thoughts in a spoiler, that was from a different thread brainstorming interesting ideas for Limbo.

Spoiler

I like the idea of using the Hat to expand Limbo's capabilities.

But I'd still like to see Limbo be more the Master of the Rift, where the Rift is simply the Void entering the Material plane (so basically like controllable Void Fissures and not connected to Neural Sentries. Limbo essentially takes the place of the Neural Sentry in manipulating the Rift) and not be a place where Limbo can go walk back and forth to. Also still feel that Rift Surge and the passive should merge with Rift Walk.

The reason I am taking this direction is that it was said the first Limbo was torn apart trying to Rift Walk in the first place; which was too big a jump into that the dimension the way Limbo was trying to manipulate the Rift, since that dimension was actually the Void itself and not a different Rift plane. The first Limbo wanted to prove the Theorem to be true, but it was torn apart and scattered afterall.

So from a Lore perspective, it can still be plausible that the proof Ordis was reading throughout the Limbo Theorem Quest had novel calculations that were simply for manipulating the Void in novel ways on the Material plane (and maybe was not accounting for the effect Limbo's Hat had on all of that) and not another dimension or plane of existence; something Ordis might have been able to realize once he read the entire proof as hinted in the quest dialogue, since he is in charge of the Orbiter and Landing Craft and uses the Void to conceal the Orbiter.

And now with Void Fissures able to break through, maybe that failed Rift Walk could have been the beginning of more fractures with the Void that then got worse with the return of the Moon. Since there is some leeway in placing when the walk happened; my guess it had to have been done before the Moon disappears.

Not to mention the type of control shown by the current Limbo is different from the paradigm of other Warframes, where the general idea is that Warframes are applying Void Energy to power their unique abilities; and so looking at Limbo currently, it has two capabilities broken down into three abilities and a third, which is a buff in a specific state for one of the abilities.

So I'd like to explore the possibility of updating the Rift, how it relates to Limbo and giving Limbo a new ability, while combining two existing abilities together.

Have more in the spoiler, that could be added to your new synergies, with Limbo's:

Spoiler

Something that has often bugged me is that in the lore descriptions from the Limbo Theorem quest, it is made clear how the first Limbo was torn apart in its final Rift Walk.

So I got to thinking, what if our Limbo never actually Rift Walks, crossing into a Rift 'Plane', and simply is manipulating the energies of the Void? So what Limbo is doing is manipulating the Void in ways that nothing else ever can, to create Rifts in the Material Plane.

The Rift: So what the Rift should be is the Void colliding with the Material Plane and causing chaotic energies that Limbo can then manipulate as a Master of the Rift.

  • So now there is no entering or exiting a Rift Plane.
  • Limbo is using Void energy and manipulating how it affects the Material plane, causing Rifts.
  • Now that Limbo never leaves the Material plane, there can be tweaks to his kit so he can better synergize and keep his strengths, while losing some weaknesses.

Ability #1: At the drop of a Hat ( New Ability )

  • Limbo creates a tear on the Material Plane, leaving his Hat to hold the tear open.
  • Able to teleport as setup in the OP
  • Enemies who fire through the tear have their damage absorbed with a percentage that can be reflected back on them.
  • Allies who fire through it, have a boost to damage.
  • Power Range and Strength stack to increase range.
  • Power Duration and Efficiency stack to increase Duration.

Ability #2: Surge ( Banish )

  • Continues to work as it did as a first ability, except that carried items are not knocked out of players' hand.
  • Cast on 1st ability causes a radial proc.
  • The Ability creates a cloak on enemies, their output (Damage and other effects) enters the Void, where a percent of damage can be reflected to enemies.
  • On Allies any damage input is diverted to the Void and they gain boosts to energy regen.
  • Haven Augment still applies to this ability.
  • Power Range and Strength stack to increase range
  • Power Duration and Efficiency stack to increase Duration.

Ability #3: Cloak ( Rift Walk, Rift Surge and old passive combined )

  • Limbo stays on the material plane and creates a cloak to be away from the touch of enemies.
  • Now incorporates current passive (Rift Efficiency), and former Rift Surge with Rift Surge Augment.
  • So still gains boost to energy regen and protects Limbo.
  • When targeting Enemies that have been cloaked by Surge, they can be damaged.
  • Items in-hand stay with Limbo, which can drop on switching weapon and so on.

Ability #4: Cataclysm

  • As a large breach of the Material plan and the Void, this Rift is Limbo at his best.
  • If cast on 1st ability, enemies are trapped inside, as a prison.
  • Mostly stays as it currently works and still uses current augment.
  • Enemies entering the Cataclysm receive a stagger proc, and damage over time for as long as the enemies are in the Cataclysm.
  • Enemy damage that enters the Cataclysm is diverted to the Void and can be reflected to the enemy. Enemy damage cannot exit the Cataclysm.
  • Allied damage that enters (and/or is inside) the Cataclysm gains a damage boost.
  • The initial size of the Cataclysm is based on both Power Strength and Range.
  • Power Duration and Efficiency stack to increase Cataclysm's Duration.

Passive: Calculating - Gains an increase to Crit Chance and Crit Damage (actual values can be say 10% for each or whatever works best). The idea being that Limbo originally was supposed to be a savvy Mathematician and similar to John Nash, is able to see how to best defeat the next problem.

Hope these additions are viable to consider.

 

Here is the thread:

 

 

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In a way both parties (love and hate) could both be pleased maybe try vauban and ivara's toggle ability on limbo... 

his 1st ability can be called (ex: Rift) = toggle 1: can be a portal sort of move allowing for limbo to create a faster way of travel.

                                                             toggle 2:  safe zone = creates a small safe zone that causes all incoming damage to be reduced

                                                             toggle 3:  rift link = any proc received on limbo whilst this ability is active is shared to all nearby enemies in sight.

                                                             toggle 4: rift walk = the same as the one he already but with the ability to carry mission items,pick up loot, use consoles etc...

Banish ability its fairly useful on limbo as rescue and defending the operative lets you focus on the enemy i guess so make this hes 2nd ability

 

3rd ability could be something like Rift flare that blinds enemies with a flood of void energy and inflicts them with a bleed proc ( might not make many people pleased)

4th cataclysm = current one is quite annoying to be honest maybe change it to a pure damage ability rename it to something like rift bomb = limbo creates a ball of void energy in the air and slams into the ground creating a huge explosion (effected by range) dealing somewhat a decent amount of damage. 

allies nearby rift bomb will get back 5% of the total of enemies killed as energy

not trying to hijack the thread with this more in response to rebbeca, in a way would make limbo fairly interesting and have multiple builds available for him

 

Edited by S0ulCal1ber
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32 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We've been explicit:
Limbo will be one of the most difficult frames to review because the people that love him know how to use him well, and love him a lot. So we don't want to forfeit that in favour of those who gave him a try and weren't quite sure why they weren't sold. It's not easy trying to please all parties, but we have to respect the crowd that loves what he offers in his current form (like you).

True, but even the players in favor of Limbo concede that he has a handful of flaws that need to be ironed out.

Particularly:

  • His interactions with fellow players who don't want to be in the Rift, and the negative impact he has on pickups or mission-objectives; 
  • The relative power that enemies have when they're in the Rift compared to Limbo himself without extensions such as Focus; or
  • The fact that Rift Surge is the only ability in the game that has zero effect until you personally cast another power, which limits his fluidity and creates a "rotation" (which was acknowledged in a dev workshop some time back, but never changed).

If you ask a frequent Limbo player, they would say his kit may not need a full rework, but they'll definitely agree that "he needs to be played right" in order to use him well at all.

Edited by Archwizard
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9 minutes ago, DarkOvion said:

Huh?

I'm not sure how it's 3 that do the same + one useless.

I constantly use all 4 skills.

I didn't say it was useless, I said it doesn't do anything. It's a buff, it doesn't do stuff. I wasn't hating on the ability, merely describing it in an objective manner. 

Losing any of the other 3 skills loses an aspect of Limbo's kit.

Losing Rift Surge means you lose a bit of damage and the lesser important advantage of being in the rift (separation from others is the big advantage) This is why the most common suggestion is to simply meld it into ways that don't require it to be cast. (Inherit in rift / tied to rift walk / Limbo passive...)

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1 minute ago, Awesome_Arab said:

I didn't say it was useless, I said it doesn't do anything. It's a buff, it doesn't do stuff. I wasn't hating on the ability, merely describing it in an objective manner. 

Losing any of the other 3 skills loses an aspect of Limbo's kit.

Losing Rift Surge means you lose a bit of damage and the lesser important advantage of being in the rift (separation from others is the big advantage) This is why the most common suggestion is to simply meld it into ways that don't require it to be cast. (Inherit in rift / tied to rift walk / Limbo passive...)

It's a LOT of damage.

I don't even focus on Rift Surge, and I'd still be losing something like 100,000 damage a shot.

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