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Riven Mods... actually might be a really good idea


Lunamaniac
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Rightly, there has been a lot of criticism of the new Riven Mod system.  However the last update, has opened my eyes somewhat.

Changes still need to be made, but even in their current state Riven Mods successfully achieve the following:

  • Greater build diversity
  • Encourages different playstyles and strategies due to the negatives
  • Buff weaker weapons while maintaining a sense of progression for new players

Unless you're dead set on a very specific set of stats, your chances of getting a mod with a bunch of interesting usable stats are not too bad.  I recently got Status duration on my Zarr, and that's actually pretty useful even though it wasn't what I was looking for.  Before that I had a mod that reduced the magazine to two, which for the Zarr changed how I used the weapon quite a bit.  Now it's bad against the infested so I'll have to keep that in mind when facing them.

Because these mods can be so powerful, weapons with a greater compatibility receive a very significant boost (although I don't currently know how great the differences are).

The remaining problems as I see them are:

  • Simply bad, ineffectual rolls
  • Random power levels on the different stats

Ideally there should be NO rolls that are completely useless or not worth using over possible rolls.  This would also justify how the reroll price increases every time.

I don't know how power levels work.  Some mods have flat damage bonuses exceeding that of a fully ranked serration with great supplemental attributes while others will have low damage with minimal or even subjectively negative utility stats (such as zoom).  The system is either completely random or the formula for balancing allocated stats needs to be improved.  

Spoiler

For example, imagine a mod with damage and reload speed.  If it were to be fairly balanced the formula should always result in one of three broadly possible outcomes for mods with those specific stats.

  1. High Damage, Low Reload
  2. Medium Damage, Medium Reload
  3. Low Damage, High Reload

Players may prefer the higher damage, but no matter what they get the results should be balanced in some way to prevent simply inferior rolls to others.

If you introduce a negative, such as flight speed the formula could do something like this:

    High Damage, High Reload, Negative Flight Speed

The actual formula would be more complex, but the idea should remain the same.

With these changes or equivalent improvements, I think Riven Mods may actually be a useful and fair balancing tool and also add a fun and interesting layer to the game.

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3 minutes ago, Lunamaniac said:

Rightly, there has been a lot of criticism of the new Riven Mod system.  However the last update, has opened my eyes somewhat.

Changes still need to be made, but even in their current state Riven Mods successfully achieve the following:

  • Greater build diversity
  • Encourages different playstyles and strategies due to the negatives
  • Buff weaker weapons while maintaining a sense of progression for new players

Unless you're dead set on a very specific set of stats, your chances of getting a mod with a bunch of interesting usable stats are not too bad.  

 

I'm not quite sure I totally agree with you :smile:

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In my honest opinion, all Rivens are are just bandaid mods for weapons that DE just refuse to buff. If the goal was to solely boost lower tier weapons (they are hammering this down by adding this disposition system to cut out high tier weapons), then they should have just tweaked a few numbers and actually buffed them instead. That Panthera Riven up there looks quite nice, but I'd rather have DE just buff the damn thing rather than me wasting my time going through a "cheese or be cheesed" sortie and other RNG to get a good one.

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11 minutes ago, R34LM said:

In my honest opinion, all Rivens are are just bandaid mods for weapons that DE just refuse to buff. If the goal was to solely boost lower tier weapons (they are hammering this down by adding this disposition system to cut out high tier weapons), then they should have just tweaked a few numbers and actually buffed them instead. That Panthera Riven up there looks quite nice, but I'd rather have DE just buff the damn thing rather than me wasting my time going through a "cheese or be cheesed" sortie and other RNG to get a good one.

It seems like DE wants better and worse weapons so that new players feel like they're making progress and getting stronger.

I don't care much about that, I prefer variety over linear progression.  However if you look at this as a compromise between players like me and DE themselves, with this system I can still be competitive using weapons DE WANT to be rubbish.  I just need to get a good Riven mod first.

 

@PoulsenJ How do we disagree?  You got screwed over and DE need to fix it so that doesn't happen.  If two out of three of those stats weren't useless then it might be interesting.  Side-note: Panthera is great fun, I think that's what I'm going to be trying Riven Mods with next.

Edited by Lunamaniac
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the "problem" with riven mod is that the "weaker" weapons were not used for a reason...   a seer or a miter will still have 0% chance to crit even if a riven mod adds 150% chance to crit...   150% of 0% is still 0%....  even if they gave 500% crit chance to something that starts with 2.5% chance to crit it only ends up with a 15% chance to crit AFTER the riven mod...   weapons were not being used for a reason and the math behind those weapon is what prevents them from ever being used...   unless they are willing to do something drastic like straight up adding crit chance like maiming strike for spin atk's there is little reason to use most of the unused weapons of the past.  they will still be useless AFTER riven buffs are added/calculated.  

only way to fix weapons like that is similar to syndicate mods.   give then entirely new mechanic like how furis is a junk weapon till you add the syndicate mod on there.  just adding stats based on current math will not bring useless weapons out of the trash bin.

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17 minutes ago, Lunamaniac said:

@PoulsenJ How do we disagree?  You got screwed over and DE need to fix it so that doesn't happen.  If two out of three of those stats weren't useless then it might be interesting.  Side-note: Panthera is great fun, I think that's what I'm going to be trying Riven Mods with next.

No we dont, just thourght it's it was pretty funny thats all :D and as you can see i'am building it, even gave you the first thumbs up ;-) 

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1 minute ago, PoulsenJ said:

No we dont, just thourght it's it was pretty funny thats all :D and as you can see i'am building it, even gave you the first thumbs up ;-) 

If you had crit damage as well it would be perfect!  Sorry if I came across as aggressive, I was just confused since you said you didn't agree without saying why.

A fix seems like it'd be fairly easy to implement, at least for when these stats literally cannot apply in any way.  We can probably still look forward to getting crit chance on <5% weapons though.

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2 minutes ago, Lunamaniac said:

If you had crit damage as well it would be perfect!  Sorry if I came across as aggressive, I was just confused since you said you didn't agree without saying why.

A fix seems like it'd be fairly easy to implement, at least for when these stats literally cannot apply in any way.  We can probably still look forward to getting crit chance on <5% weapons though.

It would, I thourgth hell yes when i unlocked it, and you know the rest ;-) It's all good man, maybe it was a dumb joke anyway, you have a great weekend :smile: 

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On 19/11/2016 at 8:25 AM, Lunamaniac said:

Greater build diversity

You mean "Reroll every Riven mod until it gives critical chance/crit multiplier/damage/multishot and then do your standard rifle build with it"

On 19/11/2016 at 8:25 AM, Lunamaniac said:

Encourages different playstyles and strategies due to the negatives

Except we don't. It's the exact same playstyle except easier because your weapon's far more powerful than before. Some Riven mods doesn't even have negative stats on it.

On 19/11/2016 at 8:25 AM, Lunamaniac said:

Buff weaker weapons while maintaining a sense of progression for new players

Which can also be achieved by doing something that they've been doing for the past 3 years, which is by altering the weapon stats itself instead of making a low droprate mod with randomized stats.

If making old weapons viable is their true intention, then they took the longest, hardest and controversial way to do it. Seriously, how hard is it to come up with decent stats for old guns? There are times where I like how DE sometimes handle things differently, but this is definitely not one of them. It's a crap system disguising itself as a "buff" while also making money in the process.

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3 hours ago, TotallyLagging said:

You mean "Reroll every Riven mod until it gives critical chance/crit multiplier/damage/multishot and then do your standard rifle build with it"

Except we don't. It's the exact same playstyle except easier because your weapon's far more powerful than before. Some Riven mods doesn't even have negative stats on it.

Which can also be achieved by doing something that they've been doing for the past 3 years, which is by altering the weapon stats itself instead of making a low droprate mod with randomized stats.

If making old weapons viable is their true intention, then they took the longest, hardest and controversial way to do it. Seriously, how hard is it to come up with decent stats for old guns? There are times where I like how DE sometimes handle things differently, but this is definitely not one of them. It's a crap system disguising itself as a "buff" while also making money in the process.

I don't disagree with any of what you've said, but I think you are ignoring some of the potential upsides.

I'm a player who enjoys endless content, and so for me what matters most is that as many weapons as possible remain viable when content actually DOES become challenging.

As far as I know mods with negative stats tend to have higher positive ones, and from my examples I think I made a fair point.  I'm personally having to adjust my playstyle to get the full effect of the bonuses.  (Maybe DE could expand on this?)

If DE just buffed the weaker weapons (Which honestly I'd be fine with them doing) then the argument is that new players wouldn't feel like they were working towards more powerful weapons.  I don't actually agree with this, but to me DE's decision is a good compromise since more weapons will be balanced to be competitive when taking these mods into account.

Just to reiterate, I think you're right in many ways.  And those were my views as well but I think if certain changes are made Riven Mods could still be a positive addition to WF.

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