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Damage 3.0 Discussion - No More One Hit Kills


(PSN)BigVinZ007
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2 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

No. They need to fix players first if they are going to bother with balancing overhauls, or fix players AND enemies at the same time. If they nerfed all enemies first, making them even easier than they are now, i wouldn't be surprised if the same people saying "nerf enemies first" happens to be the first to whine by saying 'there is no content for my 7 forma Tonkor and Chroma' or 'endgame is dead'. Enemies well past level 100 in endless modes or enemies with sortie modifiers aren't meant for you to oneshot.

I agree, but the enemies shouldn't have broken scaling that insta-kills you beyond a certain threshold, like the sapping opsrey, below lvl 100 their hockey pucks are a minor nusiance, but above lvl 100 it's an insta-kill. they shouldn't ista-kill us, and we shouldn't insta-kill them

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1 hour ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

Hmm... if this means that the type of AI of the Executioners, Brokers, Stalker and so on have, can be applied to more enemies and have reduced mob density with tougher enemies, this might be good for the game. The high volume of trash mobs is actually kind of ridiculous when considering the lore of the dystopic solar system.

But the scale capped to 50 is too low, but I can see why you would start there.

The main thing would be to keep the challenge, and personally have damage be more realistic. Anyone with real combat experience and/or seen actual war footage would know that one shot kills tend to be less common then what most video games portray and our Warframe baddies have high tech gear and body armor. Nevertheless there are instances where one shot kills will still be possible such as with most Sniper Rifles and explosives.

In the vein of a more realistic approach, there should be a renewed focus on IPS being the backbone, not something that needs to be ignored for maximizing Elemental damage and their procs. Elemental sources should be more damage over time and work more as CC effects and de-buffs, not reliant on Warframe powers, IMHO.

I have my thoughts in greater detail here, for any interested:

 

The stalker fight in Second Dream was the most fun I ever had in this game. Mobs are fun but too many lags the game and drops frame rate. 50 seems low but its a good start. If need be they can introduce 10 enemy levels each major quest but that introduces more power creep. And we need a clear level cap. If you wanna do long defense/survival just make tougher enemies/bosses spawn.

Spartan is there a way we can make sure the developers see our suggestions? 

Edited by (PS4)BigVinZ007
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The problem is with a lack of deliberate design of a "maximum" value for top end play. The bottom-up formula driven system we have (both for players and enemies) results in Rocket Tag when our Attack/Damage exceeds our Defenses. It also forces optimization choices around being able to Bypass the ever scaling enemy defenses in ways that break the system in "normal" play.

High level Warframe play is Rocket Tag. Get hit first and die. In Rocket Tag your only defense is to not get hit or don't let the enemy shoot (Crowd Control, ability negation).

It's a problem you also find in Pen and Paper roleplaying games like Dungeons and Dragons, that also use a bottom-up formula driven Stat increasing system.

Edited by Brasten
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14 minutes ago, Etan-gK said:

I agree, but the enemies shouldn't have broken scaling that insta-kills you beyond a certain threshold, like the sapping opsrey, below lvl 100 their hockey pucks are a minor nusiance, but above lvl 100 it's an insta-kill. they shouldn't ista-kill us, and we shouldn't insta-kill them

I agree with you on the ridiculous damage some enemies deal needing to be toned down. In terms of survivability though, the enemies should be decent in that department, but not totally broken on any spectrum. They do need to reach a point that forces players to leave in endless modes though.

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)BigVinZ007 said:

The stalker fight in Second Dream was the most fun I ever had in this game. Mobs are fun but too many lags the game and drops frame rate. 50 seems low but its a good start. If need be they can introduce 10 enemy levels each major quest but that introduces more power creep. And we need a clear level cap. If you wanna do long defines/survival just make tougher enemies/bosses spawn.

Spartan is there a way we can make sure the developers see our suggestions? 

There are a few I'd like to redo myself, maybe I'll check out the Codex now.

Best we can do is post our thoughts here in the forums, discuss civilly and hope that one of the devs follows in the line of thinking of our suggestions, if they get to read them. Wishful thinking, but eh?

 

Although, I have read here and there that Twitter begrudgingly is a way to bring certain topics to a dev's attention, but I don't plan on ever using Twitter.

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....

2 hours ago, (PS4)BigVinZ007 said:

I'm hoping the new damage system will bring (gun)skill and challenge back to the forefront.

Simplify enemy levels. Keep them between 10 to 50. (being the equivalent of 10-100 today)

None of our weapons one hit kill enemies except for bows/snipers and shotguns. Exceptions be stuff like Opticor. For example a Soma Prime is not gonna ridiculously one shot a level 10 grineer for 10,000 damage. Its gonna take an average 3 shots. 

Neither will enemy factions one hit finish us. Thinking back of hour long void survival, Corpus Tech grenades and Bombard homing missiles could use a subtle indicator and Nullifier snipers leave us with 10% HP so we could retreat.

I would keep the same mods just make the numbers less. Like 20% multi shot instead of 120% for pistols. Haven't done the math so don't quote me on this but it would make everything less of a headache for the developers and players who invested in it. Plus give 2 extra utility slots for weapons. 

With a scaled back system like this they would also have to double check the warframe abilities because Ash blade storming through a crowd all day long and never using a weapon wouldn't fit in it. I feel with Zenurik, energy pads and efficiency mods they really shot themselves in the foot by allowing the player base to spam abilities and removing challenge. They are powerful and should be but not this frequent. Also we need at least 1 augment mod slot. 

Would love to hear what you wanna see in Damage 3.0

 

...... But my Mesa....

 

I like one-shotting enemies. In fact, it is one of the main reasons I love this game so much, mass damage gives me the instant gratification I so seek in life while also letting me appreciate the delayed gratification on working my way to shiny items and leveling them.

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Pretty much agree with what some people said already...

 

If they do what you propose i'd uninstall and forget it exists.

 

That sounds boring as all hell.

 

I don't play for a challenge, I play because it lets me slaughter things for fun. 

Edited by Ailissa
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21 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

I agree with you on the ridiculous damage some enemies deal needing to be toned down. In terms of survivability though, the enemies should be decent in that department, but not totally broken on any spectrum. They do need to reach a point that forces players to leave in endless modes though.

enemies need to be scaled so that their damage scales half as quickly as their health and shields and armor. So that a lvl 100 does the damage of a lvl 50 but still retains their bullet spongieness, that way enemies don't start insta-killing you until well past lvl 200, which only occurs deep into endless missions.

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so many cry babies whining about weapon balance in a PVE game. if you care so much go to PVP.

The only thing DE should do is change what MR a player needs to be to be able to get certain weapons. "hey you want to get this weapon that can one shot 100 enemies in a 30m radius? get to MR22 then."

Making "damage 3.0" isn't just damage 3.0. it's literally tearing the game down and re building it as something new. Every enemy, every weapon, every mod, every power, every mission would need to be changed because literally everything has been balanced and built around where the game is today. DE might as well just make a new game at that point because that's the work that would need to go into damage 3.0

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A lot of folks misunderstand. I'm not saying your warframe powers don't one shot. In fact, its encouraged. They're just not as spammable like Bladestorm now. Make it feel special. Unless its a channeled ability. 

Making assault rifles a bit weaker makes other weapon types stand out more etc. Bringing a healthy balance. Of course a Tonkor, Synoid Simulor will still clear rooms. If I was DE I would just change their ammo consumption or give them some other drawback. Don't wanna have the same top 5 weapons out there all the time. We have 300+.

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I try to refrain from this sort of commentary but I tire of the misuse of words/concepts:

Spoiler

bfnApay.jpg

The word is whine: complain in a feeble or petulant way.

If one is of the opinion that weapon balance does not matter, very well.

If one states that they will rage quit upon seeing certain changes to the game, very well.

But when mis-attributing labels such as 'cry babies' to individuals engaging in a discussion on a forum, where opinions should be respected, at the very least tolerated; I feel I have to share how such musings are misguided and often seem intended to derail discussion, where the better course of action is to simply state their position and not whine in the process.

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I expected negativity. Like Steve said, all he hears is complains and no suggestions. 

It's a lot of work for them but its not a new game. Just tone down the numbers. 

To me WF was always a Shooter/RPG even though it uses a lot of MMO concepts. And Dark Souls/Destiny offer a consistent challenge from start to end game. Compare that to your starter frame, lvl 0 Excalibur Braton, where you slowly become stronger. But after a 100 hours you can push past 40 min void survival and the curtain falls away. Where you without warning get one shotted and on lower levels one bullet blows mobs away. 

We all fell in love with this game at the start of it. The ninja flippin third person shooter. Before we even knew it would turn into Dynasty Warriors. 

Edited by (PS4)BigVinZ007
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1 hour ago, (PS4)BigVinZ007 said:

I expected negativity. Like Steve said, all he hears is complains and no suggestions. 

It's a lot of work for them but its not a new game. Just tone down the numbers. 

To me WF was always a Shooter/RPG even though it uses a lot of MMO concepts. And Dark Souls/Destiny offer a consistent challenge from start to end game. Compare that to your starter frame, lvl 0 Excalibur Braton, where you slowly become stronger. But after a 100 hours you can push past 40 min void survival and the curtain falls away. Where you without warning get one shotted and on lower levels one bullet blows mobs away. 

We all fell in love with this game at the start of it. The ninja flippin third person shooter. Before we even knew it would turn into Dynasty Warriors. 

Well....after a period of time, just about every rpg out there applies the whole "OSK lesser mooks"

 

if im at max level, i would rather....no, I EXPECT to be able to kill anything thats less than a third of my level in one shot.

 

in warframe, there's very few weapons that one shot even the strongest enemy(not counting hall of eclipse....mirage makes anything OP.)

 

me: lvl90

enemy: lvl(25 or lower)

i expect that little sh** to die in one. Anything higher? Maybe.

lvl 45+? Two or more.

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All this talk of adding challenge to the game, but whine like babies when DE does it.  They added more challenge to stealth missions by making enemy AI smarter.  Forum lost their minds because they can no longer get easy stealth kill streaks. 

Here's the thing that most seem to forget.  DE has said quite a few times on Devstreams that they want us to feel powerful in our Warframes.  They have also given us multiple ways to challenge ourselves without making it too hard for those who don't.  That means that you don't have to use all the META gear if you want a challenge. 

For example, I do every mission possible in as stealthy a way that I can.  Why, because I like doing it.  It's a challenge to me to see if I can do the whole mission without being detected regardless of mission type.  But that doesn't mean that I think everyone should be forced to play this way.  It's nice that DE provided us with multiple ways to play the same game. 

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 9:21 PM, Obviousclone said:

guild Wars 2 has a neat system of scaling down players in level/damage output whenever they enter a low level zone, so high level players don't just blitz through low level content and can actually enjoy the game at the correct pace.

The downscaling also affects healthbars/defences- you'll still have an advantage (I think the minimum level they can reduce you to is 6 above the zone), but you'll actually need fight accordingly and carefully in lower levelled zones. And of course, the idea is supported by the fact that "hey you're a skilled, high level player, you should be skilled enough to beat these enemies even without high level stuff".

Now this isn't a bad idea.  I remember this feature in Guild Wars 2 also.  It was interesting. 

Edited by DatDarkOne
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