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Who here actually likes the lore changes post The Second Dream?


Nukesnipe
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Not exactly sure if this is the right place for this thread, but that big sticky said this was the place for general discussion, whereas the feedback forum has "Lore" in the description, but I don't really think this counts as feedback, per se.  If I'm wrong, feel free to move me.

Poll.

In my opinion, Operators completely ruined Warframe lore, creating massive piles of contradiction and making the playable Warframes entirely uninteresting and indistinguishable drones that lack any personality.  Yeah, the various quest related Warframes that were out before TSD (Mirage, Limbo) were specifically copies of the actual Warframes, but it had a hint of necromancy and bringing them back from the dead, if not wholly.  Those primordial, 'original' Warframes explicitly had personality.  Lotus was implied to be friends with Mirage, and was distraught when she died.  Inaros told the Lotus to frak off so he could stick around doing his thing, Limbo was this sort of mathmagician that ended up blowing himself up on accident.  They had personality, they had actually interesting stories.  It was fun to design my various 'frames as if they were actual characters.  My Trinity dressed up in white and red and was the fussy team mom who babysat her team and chastised them when they got hurt, my Gersemi Valkyr is a friendly catgirl that devolves into RIP AND TEAR RIP AND TEAR RIP AND TEAR with a big frakoff zweihander, et cetera.

And then Operators come around and put the kibash on all of that, while creating massive plot holes and contrivances.  It was always handwaved how you, the player, can play as a multitude of different Warframes, though theories abound.  Some thought they were just one dude with a bunch of suits (despite the difference in body size and shape between them.  Rhino squeezing into a Mag suit?)  Other theories, like my own, held that they were multiple, individual Tenno who shared weapons and a ship, whose numbers grew and shrunk as others joined and left, basically a sort of small, tightly knit team that sent individuals out on missions.

Now, Operators appeared literally out of nowhere, for literally no reason.  "You're actually a prepubescent child who's remote controlling the Warframes from the Moon and Lotus is your creepy forcibly adoptive mother."  Come on!  If that's the case, how were those original Warframes controlled?  Were there Operators back then?  Was that Mirage controlled by an Operator?  Then why did Lotus throw a hissy fit when she died?  Why did anyone care when Limbo's head exploded and scattered his limbs across the system?  Not to mention that, if you actually care to pay attention to this bit of lore, "Your dudes" turned into "Your androgynous dude who has some RC puppets with guns."  Why does Valkyr still scream and rage, if the one we play is just a facsimile?

The Warframes being void-infused technocyte constructs could've been neat, but remote controlled?  Come on.  And if they're so powerful and the only thing that can actually go out and fight all the various baddies... why can I teleport my operator out of their bean bag chair now?  If some random Lancer gets a lucky shot and they die (since they wear NO armor, and aren't superhuman cyborg space zombie ninjas at that), that's all over, you lost an irreplaceable asset.  The entire point that the Lotus hid the Operators was to keep them safe... so why let you leave safety?  To cast magic missile?  Why can't the Warframes cast magic missile?

As it stands, I will admit that the Operators have the potential to be interesting and good.  Despite that, they're just... bad in every way.  Ordis has a better story arc than the Operators, Clem has a better story than the Operators and he started out as a joke based on a bugged out Lancer.

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8 minutes ago, Nukesnipe said:

Warframes being void-infused technocyte constructs

They still are. we know more about the operators than the frames. we always controlled them but "second dream" the haze of controlling them from the void moon had us in a dream state. We saw ourselves as the frame. 

The current operator mode is like the cart before the horse. the focus trees will effect that mode.

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They're not all that bad, IMHO. We had to get the answer to mono-Tenno vs. poly-Tenno eventually one way or another and when you take Dark Sector into consideration (half-canon status and whatnot) I think it's a pretty reasonable idea to use a telepath to control what would otherwise be an ax-crazy cyborg zombie space ninja. Even if you disregard Dark Sector, DE has clearly been building up to this twist as far back as Ember Prime and I respect their attempt to portray a shooter-protagonist who's the exact opposite of the total badass guns-blazing hero you expect them to be. A little frustrated by their recent gameplay implementation (even after changes I really, really need more survivability at minimum and want to see Focus powers more closely integrated to Transference) but Focus is a good system in theory and just needs to be streamlined.

To address some of your points:

The best I can offer in regards to Valkyr is that the 'original' was just an Operator so closely bonded to Valkyr that she literally thought she was Valkyr (which was what the Orokin were going for to begin with), and every other Valkyr  we've "built" is just someone else taking arms up in her name. Her debut event was all about recusing her, after all.

The idea of the Operator coming out into their own was to show that they're tired of letting the Orokin/Sentient War define them IMHO. That being said the implementation was pretty terrible (if I'm powerful enough to just Void-teleport wherever the crap I want, I shouldn't be dying to one bullet, I should catching them all with a wave of my hand) and I agree an Operator that's busted out of their chair and gone full-on psychic master shouldn't feel this weak. Weaker than a Warframe perhaps (because you're wearing no armor, duh), but not so weak that I can only use them on level 15 and below play.

Edited by ZephyrPhantom
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The Operators didn't just come out of nowhere. They hinted at in the written lore as early as Ember Prime's Codex entry IIRC. They were briefly mentioned in the Rhino Prime Codex entry as well.

So no, they didn't change the lore, they fractured your headcanon.

Also:

Spoiler

latest?cb=20121103000521

 

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2 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

The Operators didn't just come out of nowhere. They hinted at in the written lore as early as Ember Prime's Codex entry IIRC. They were briefly mentioned in the Rhino Prime Codex entry as well.

So no, they didn't change the lore, they fractured your headcanon.

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Needs more cracks bruh

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4 minutes ago, ZephyrPhantom said:

They're not all that bad, IMHO. We had to get the answer to mono-Tenno vs. poly-Tenno eventually one way or another and when you take Dark Sector into consideration (half-canon status and whatnot) I think it's a pretty reasonable idea to use a telepath to control what would otherwise be an ax-crazy cyborg zombie space ninja. Even if you disregard Dark Sector, DE has clearly been building up to this twist as far back as Ember Prime and I respect their attempt to portray a shooter-protagonist who's the exact opposite of the total badass guns-blazing hero you expect them to be. A little frustrated by their recent gameplay implementation (even after changes I really, really need more survivability at minimum and want to see Focus powers more closely integrated to Transference) but Focus is a good system in theory and just needs to be streamlined.

I see where you're coming from, and it makes sense.  Taking Ember Prime's lore into account, it was always pretty damn fuzzy.  Fitting the Operators into that just feels like 'nah we didn't mean this kid became Ember we mean this kid became the lazy CoD playing 12 year old who pilots Ember.'  And those sorts of retcons just feel... lazy.

5 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Well, two things. One, operators were hinted at long, long, long before they showed up. Two, we still don't know what the Warframes themselves are. There's ample evidence that the frames have their own intelligence and will.

I haven't played through TSD in a while, but wasn't there a part where the Warframe's separated from the Operator and still moving around?  That sort of thing could be interesting, a crazy killbot enslaved to the will of something else.  But, I doubt DE would ever really go that direction, unless they try to reveal that Stalker is just a really edgy Excalibur who mains Reaper and separated from his Operator.  Edgier than he already is, after all (his bow is named Dread, for Emperor's sake.)

7 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

The Operators didn't just come out of nowhere. They hinted at in the written lore as early as Ember Prime's Codex entry IIRC. They were briefly mentioned in the Rhino Prime Codex entry as well.

So no, they didn't change the lore, they fractured your headcanon.

Also:

  Reveal hidden contents

latest?cb=20121103000521

 

See what I said above.  And gee, nice ad hominim argument there bruh, insinuating that my dislike towards Operators stems from them ruining my headcanon.  I'm not slow, I just don't post on forums often, TWW just exacerbated my dislike towards Operators to the point that I actually bothered to post about it.

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6 minutes ago, Nukesnipe said:

I see where you're coming from, and it makes sense.  Taking Ember Prime's lore into account, it was always pretty damn fuzzy.  Fitting the Operators into that just feels like 'nah we didn't mean this kid became Ember we mean this kid became the lazy CoD playing 12 year old who pilots Ember.'  And those sorts of retcons just feel... lazy.

I haven't played through TSD in a while, but wasn't there a part where the Warframe's separated from the Operator and still moving around?  That sort of thing could be interesting, a crazy killbot enslaved to the will of something else.  But, I doubt DE would ever really go that direction, unless they try to reveal that Stalker is just a really edgy Excalibur who mains Reaper and separated from his Operator.  Edgier than he already is, after all (his bow is named Dread, for Emperor's sake.)

I think it works better if you view it as a sort of Evangelion homage - unstable kids deliberately selected by an all powerful organization to fight off evil with these effed up constructs that used to be human. When you look at how Asuka breaks down and Shinji choses to well, basically destroy the world, it doesn't seem to hard to just drive the Operators over the edge (especially with a sleeper agent posing as their mother figure) and convince them to slaughter the people pulling their strings - convince enough Operators to perform enough slaughters, and RIP Orokin Empire.

Edited by ZephyrPhantom
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5 minutes ago, Nukesnipe said:

I haven't played through TSD in a while, but wasn't there a part where the Warframe's separated from the Operator and still moving around?  That sort of thing could be interesting, a crazy killbot enslaved to the will of something else. 

That's exactly what the Rhino Prime lore entry strongly implies.

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i just think theyre taking the playable operator thing too far. 

Its starting to feel like a bait and switch. We came for WFs, now theyre in the background and DE seems focused on fleshing out the generic  operators instead. Im sure most people on this board would prefer lore related to the actual frames instead of more teenage angst drama surrounding the operators. I honestly didnt like seeing my WF act like a child in the WW cut scenes. It looked off. It felt like a different game, one thats not about stoic space assassins anymore.

I also feel like the operator presents more complex narrative conflicts. At first, we were all playing a copy based on historic warriors that had history. The WF story was one that included 1000s of players. The story was more focused on Lotus and the WF universe itself. Now the story is about an individual Tenno all in their own bubble. We cant even do quest together anymore because the narrative, so far, presents itself as a single player story where major events revolve around our lone Tenno.

I dont even know where 1000s of tenno even fit in the current narrative. In the old narrative, it could be assumed that Lotus went around waking up all Tenno. Our story was unique in that she woke us up just before Vor got to us. After that, we were assassins doing her bidding trying to maintain balance in the universe. The story wasnt individualized anymore, but we made up our own personal narrative as we went. We chose what histories to uncover, what enemies to side with, what factions to join. The idea that there were 100s of others doing the same didnt conflict with anything. We were all just woken Tenno.

all in all, i dont mind the operator, but i dont think the game should be ABOUT them. Hopefully upcoming quest returns its focus on fleshing out the universe and giving life to our WFs. They have personality in their stances for a reason, and the fact that they all have different abilities kind of make them more interesting protagonist too. Tenno have such a generic skillset, i am far more interested in seeing why Ember sets the world on fire, Limbo travels though rifts and why Ash is a ninja. What led the original WFs to take on these abilities...i do hope its more than just Balas sitting around thinking up cool themes all day with no rhyme or reason.

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19 minutes ago, Nukesnipe said:

Lotus was implied to be friends with Mirage, and was distraught when she died.

Lotus was still maintaining the deception when she told us what she remembers (plus her memory may have gaps like ours and Ordis') so of course she didn't tell us about the Operator dying, she kept it in terms we'd understand at the time.

21 minutes ago, Nukesnipe said:

 Inaros told the Lotus to frak off so he could stick around doing his thing,

Did he?  I don't recall the Inaros quest mentioning anything about him interacting with Lotus.

22 minutes ago, Nukesnipe said:

 Why did anyone care when Limbo's head exploded and scattered his limbs across the system?

Transference makes Operator's feel the pain of their Warframe.  Maybe you haven't been told that by your Operator, it's one of the mid-mission transmissions and you seem liek the kind of person who would have switched them off.  Also, we don't know if the Operator's mind would be able to freely leave the Warframe while it was lost in the rift.  Perhaps Limbo miscalculation led to the Operator being left brain-dead.

26 minutes ago, Nukesnipe said:

Why does Valkyr still scream and rage, if the one we play is just a facsimile?

She always was.  We build her from Blueprints. Our Valkyrs were never the original.

28 minutes ago, Nukesnipe said:

"You're actually a prepubescent child who's remote controlling the Warframes from the Moon and Lotus is your creepy forcibly adoptive mother."

Pubescent maybe, but not prepubescent.  Differing body shapes and voices show that they are at least going through puberty if not gone through it already.

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5 minutes ago, ZephyrPhantom said:

I think it works better if you view it as a sort of Evangelion homage - unstable kids deliberately selected by an all powerful organization to fight off evil with these effed up constructs that used to be human. When you look at how Asuka breaks down and Shinji choses to well, basically destroy the world, it doesn't seem to hard to just drive the Operators over the edge (especially with a sleeper agent posing as their mother figure) and convince them to slaughter the people pulling their strings - convince enough Operators to perform enough slaughters, and RIP Orokin Empire.

SHUT UP SHINJI

Like, I can definitely see that.  As much as I'll give NGE crap about Shinji being a whily little grox, I will admit that he had a good reason to be a whiny little grox.  It's just that... Like what Hypernaut says just below you, the story's moved away from being "Warframe" and now it's "Operators:  Maybe With Some Warframes If You Buy This Prime Access".  I don't like the Operators, I know, that's shocking and came out of the blue.  I want the story to be about the titular insane killbots, and it just... isn't anymore.  I'm not saying to retcon the Operators out, but I definitely want to see them with a smaller part.  Make them, I dunno, the puppetmaster for a group of largely independent Warframes instead of the direct slave master.

4 minutes ago, Katinka said:

Lotus was still maintaining the deception when she told us what she remembers (plus her memory may have gaps like ours and Ordis') so of course she didn't tell us about the Operator dying, she kept it in terms we'd understand at the time.

Did he?  I don't recall the Inaros quest mentioning anything about him interacting with Lotus.

Transference makes Operator's feel the pain of their Warframe.  Maybe you haven't been told that by your Operator, it's one of the mid-mission transmissions and you seem liek the kind of person who would have switched them off.  Also, we don't know if the Operator's mind would be able to freely leave the Warframe while it was lost in the rift.  Perhaps Limbo miscalculation led to the Operator being left brain-dead.

She always was.  We build her from Blueprints. Our Valkyrs were never the original.

Pubescent maybe, but not prepubescent.  Differing body shapes and voices show that they are at least going through puberty if not gone through it already.

You do know that ad hominim arguments really get you nowhere, right?  Drop the personal attacks and use a defense better than 'the retcon says so.'

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My only real problem with the lore currently is I don't believe the Tenno as presented here are capable of producing a culture or are old souls in young bodies. Let's face it, they are presented as teenagers, in looks, speech and attitudes.

Gameplay wise, having the operator all back of the bus wasn't a major issue for me but yes, I find the new mechanics worrying  for the future of the game. Appreciate the game has to evolve but its how it evolves and currently it's evolving in a direction I'm not fond of. It's becoming less Warframe, more Tenno and personally it's not what I really want. 

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3 minutes ago, Nukesnipe said:

 

You do know that ad hominim arguments really get you nowhere, right?  Drop the personal attacks and use a defense better than 'the retcon says so.'

I don't think you understand what ad hominem means. 

Ad hominem means against the man/person. As in a personal attack in lieu of an argument. You can disagree with his argument if you wish, or argue against it, but he didn't insult you at all in the post you just quoted, or even imply insult. 

You can't just dismiss people's arguments by claiming it is a logical fallacy every time. His arguments are valid, and I re-read that post twice... still not seeing an insult. 

If you really think him saying "that you would be likely to turn off the operator" and thus may not have heard a line he is talking about, is an ad hominem attack that invalidates his argument, you are going to struggle to discuss anything with anyone here who disn't agree with you 100%. 

That was hardly a mean comment for these forums or even a mean comment at all. Please don't be so thin skinned, that isn't ad hominem. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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5 minutes ago, Nukesnipe said:

SHUT UP SHINJI

Like, I can definitely see that.  As much as I'll give NGE crap about Shinji being a whily little grox, I will admit that he had a good reason to be a whiny little grox.  It's just that... Like what Hypernaut says just below you, the story's moved away from being "Warframe" and now it's "Operators:  Maybe With Some Warframes If You Buy This Prime Access".  I don't like the Operators, I know, that's shocking and came out of the blue.  I want the story to be about the titular insane killbots, and it just... isn't anymore.  I'm not saying to retcon the Operators out, but I definitely want to see them with a smaller part.  Make them, I dunno, the puppetmaster for a group of largely independent Warframes instead of the direct slave master.

I do agree we've had a lot of Focus on Operators (pun intended) but I think it's moreso because DE  needs to flesh them out as characters or we'd have zero investment in actually using them. Over the course of TSD -> TWW I've gone from viewing my Operator from just "Fancy explanation for 5th ability" to "another valued party member in my RPG party of two" ... or at least, I'd like to if they could survive for more than two seconds in nonstealth play.  Judging from the bits of TWW that did get scrapped from the final product and from what I've generally seen/heard about Umbra the third quest will hopefully follow the line of thought of: "We know who our 'pilots' are now - so who are our Warframes?"

 

Edited by ZephyrPhantom
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18 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

The Operators didn't just come out of nowhere. They hinted at in the written lore as early as Ember Prime's Codex entry IIRC. They were briefly mentioned in the Rhino Prime Codex entry as well.

So no, they didn't change the lore, they fractured your headcanon.

Also:

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Obliviosly first DE idea was a suit. It was so in Dark Sector. 

And, i just can't see any operations in a Ember Prime's codex. We just have a spaceship and woman with a burned skin. You know, it's kinda strange what some kid became a Ember without warframe and this is story of Ember, but in our present we know kid can be anything and his actual power is kinda-void things and transference. 

So, one more time. We have Zariman kid in ship. Ok. But this is a Ember codex and he must be about Ember, right? And this woman, who meet a fire... I guess it must be Ember on Zariman ship, right? But there was only kids.

So, one of them must be Ember? Nope. They are not a Frames, they only operators with void power and Ember=puppet.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

i just think theyre taking the playable operator thing too far. 

Its starting to feel like a bait and switch. We came for WFs, now theyre in the background and DE seems focused on fleshing out the generic  operators instead.

My feeling towards this is that they shouldn't put the focus on the Operator without his/her Warframe. But to say the Operator takes away from it is something I don't agree with it. The Operator and the Warframe belong together like a tank crew and their tank.

If anything, I feel that the Operator could be explored through the Warframe rather than without it. I really liked the bit where you confront Teshin at the resevoir and the Operator shines through the Warframe. ("Stop saying that.")

 

As for the claim that the Operator is too weak for combat, I don't really feel that they're supposed to be able to survive combat for long.

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Just now, Tesseract7777 said:

I don't think you understand what ad hominem means. 

Ad hominem means against the man/person. As in a personal attack in lieu of an argument. You can disagree with his argument if you wish, or argue against it, but he didn't insult you at all in the post he just quoted, or even imply insult. 

You can't just dismiss people's arguments by claiming it is a logical fallacy every time. His arguments are valid, and I re-read that post twice... still not seeing an insult. 

"Maybe you haven't been told that by your Operator, it's one of the mid-mission transmissions and you seem liek the kind of person who would have switched them off."

I might be using the wrong terminology myself, I will admit.  My point is that he's insinuating that I don't pay attention to any of the lore, and that my entire argument should be dismissed as a result.  I'm arguing that his argument is irrelevant, considering that it mostly comes back to "Because the new lore says so and these old bits of lore were later stated to coincide with the new lore", whereas I'm arguing that the new lore is bollocks through and through.  "The new lore is bad" "Well the new lore is good because the new lore says X", in a nutshell.

1 minute ago, ZephyrPhantom said:

I do agree we've had a lot of Focus on Operators (pun intended) but I think it's moreso because DE  needs to flesh them out as characters or we'd have zero investment in actually using them. Over the course of TSD -> TWW I've gone from viewing my Operator from just "Fancy explanation for 5th ability" to "another valued party member in my RPG party of two" ... or at least, I'd like to if they could survive for more than two seconds in nonstealth play.  Judging from the bits of TWW that did get scrapped and from what I've generally seen/heard about Umbra the third quest will hopefully follow the line of thought of: "We know who our 'pilots' are now - so who are our Warframes?"

 

Now, I'd be alright with that.  I don't feel obligated to use the Operators because they die so quickly, and if I'm stealthing I can just about do everything necessary without needing them.  If I'm going in guns blazing, well, I'd like to be able to, as you said, survive longer than two seconds.  Thus why I main the 'indestructible storm of angry catgirl' Valkyr.  I don't see them useful, so I don't see a reason to care about them, though that could change eventually.  Hell, I used to think the Adeptus Mechanicus were a bunch of dumb boltheads who forgot how to read, now I run a Skitarii/Cult Mechanicus army, complete with a full on 'Your Dudes' backstory for their maniple, and a *@##$in' purple and gold color scheme.

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5 minutes ago, Nukesnipe said:

"Maybe you haven't been told that by your Operator, it's one of the mid-mission transmissions and you seem liek the kind of person who would have switched them off."

I might be using the wrong terminology myself, I will admit.  My point is that he's insinuating that I don't pay attention to any of the lore, and that my entire argument should be dismissed as a result.  I'm arguing that his argument is irrelevant, considering that it mostly comes back to "Because the new lore says so and these old bits of lore were later stated to coincide with the new lore", whereas I'm arguing that the new lore is bollocks through and through.  "The new lore is bad" "Well the new lore is good because the new lore says X", in a nutshell.

I get why you are frustrated, but I think this is one of those cases where doing anything besides keeping your own head-cannon strongly reinforced to yourself, is probably a losing battle. I don't like everything about where the story is going either, but I think at this point that getting them to change it that far from where they have already gone would be quite unlikely. They have invested a lot of time and money in a direction for the story that some people really don't like, but at this point I would say it may be too late to turn back on most of it. 

I will admit you have one point in terms of the lore: It gets retconned a LOT. In other words, while people will often point to older lore to make their points, the older lore is often later "reinterpreted" very creatively in order to fit the new direction DE wants to go. So just saying "the old lore says so", certainly isn't a great argument, I would agree with that. 

But I do think it is also somewhat fair to say that some who really don't like the new lore have done their best to avoid some of it and may not know some of the new lore particularly well -- understandable if they don't enjoy it, I certainly wouldn't spend a lot of time invested on a storyline I don't care for. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with doing that! We all get our own enjoyment out of the game, in our own way. 

 

I do have some hope though for DE to give the operators a more mature direction. It sounds like they at least plan to integrate their powers more with focus so we can have something with more upgraded abilities/survivability. And, I personally think it is possible we will be allowed at some point, at least through cosmetic options, to make our operator look more like an adult, even if a fairly young one.

Spoiler

There was certainly a theme in TWW that we were kind of "Growing up" as Teshin calls us a child no longer at the end. 

So while I don't like everything about the story, I would at least take a compromise where our operators weren't weak, useless little runts in missions, and could actually look more like honest to god adults. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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3 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

But I do think it is also somewhat fair to say that some who really don't like the new lore have done their best to avoid some of it and may not know some of the new lore particularly well -- understandable if they don't enjoy it, I certainly wouldn't spend a lot of time invested on a storyline I don't care for. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with doing that! We all get our own enjoyment out of the game, in our own way. 

I'm not saying that they should retcon all of it away, the damage is done and they should stick with it.  Hell, I'd give them crap if they did suddenly abandon all of it.  There's potential to this whole mess, and I'd like to be pleasantly surprised one day and go 'Yeah, I didn't like that at first, but now it's not that bad.'  See:  What I said with the AdMech.  Going from "Loot this tomb-world for SCIENCE!" to "There is literally a weapon that vivisects an alien, on the battlefield, just because the Tech-Priest was curious."  Now THAT'S hardcore.

And I don't much like the storyline, but you can't really argue about something you don't know, at least without seeming like a jackoff.

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My hope is that operator's become an alternate play style to give us another way to enjoy the game other than what it currently is. I feel inclined to just do a whole mission with my operator just because I like the diversity it brings, but I am halted by their weakness. 

If they do it right, it could almost be like starting the game over again but without actually loosing anything by adding in more progression to the operator. Focus was a pretty good mechanic introduced with TSD and gave another goal in a way, but how we get to that goal is pretty much the exact same as playing normally only with more restricted gear (unless you have lenses on everything.)

I asked in a post I made before whether people wanted operator's to be viable in a mission or not, most people said (in some way) yes. They wanted operators to actually have a legitimized reason to be a part of the game. Currently, they really aren't, even though it is implied only tenno/the queen's can 'absorb' kuva, the mechanic of tenno having to gather the kuva seems forced and is the only reason we have to even use them really.

My question to you OP, if they legitimized operator's existing and being used, would that be acceptable for you? 

EDIT: Nevermind, just saw your recent comment after commenting this

Edited by More-L
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I do. Getting TSD after a long time of vagueness in the lore was incredible. Enjoyed TWW as well.

I dont really see frames as just 'remote controlled' puppets. They obviously seem to have a will of their own when theyre pushed as seen in TSD and possibly TWW.

Hopefully whatever comes next gives more insight to frames, its the next big question still unanswered.

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1 minute ago, More-L said:

My question to you OP, if they legitimized operator's existing and being used, would that be acceptable for you? 

That'd definitely help.  Like I said a bit further up, they're currently useless to me, so I don't have any reason to care about them.  If they were more useful in fluff and crunch, then I'd like them more.  They're just, currently, strangling the more interesting parts of the lore (everything) and sucking up all the plot time.

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3 minutes ago, Nukesnipe said:

That'd definitely help.  Like I said a bit further up, they're currently useless to me, so I don't have any reason to care about them.  If they were more useful in fluff and crunch, then I'd like them more.  They're just, currently, strangling the more interesting parts of the lore (everything) and sucking up all the plot time.

In a way I feel the same way... even though I like parts of the overall storyline they are doing with the operators. 

It feels so incomplete. The operators feel SO weak. Even against Kuva Guardians, the one place where we need them for now, they just feel incredibly pathetic. There is no scaling for their abilities, no way to see the stats. No way to scale defenses, nothing. And Focus was already a system that needed a lot of work, a lot of the powers need a look, nobody uses anything but passives, I could go on. The new operator walking around doing stuff system feels like it was supposed to be integrated with your chosen focus school/schools in order to allow you to scale your operator and make full use in missions of your chosen focus school. Really allowing you to specialize and make focus truly meaningful. 

But it feels like they had that idea in mind, but ran out of time to finish it, and decided to release only the very bare bones. And to be honest I am not happy with that. I think they should have waited to give us in mission operators until they had time to integrate it with our focus schools for scaling. After waiting about a year for TWW, it feels incredibly unfinished, like they just threw it out there half-assed. 

Imagine though, the actual possibilities if they did it right. If you had a really strong Naramon build that greatly enhanced your operators ability to stealth around, for example, and helped you have multiple stealth abilities/tricks/buffs. This could allow a clever Naramon player to easily deal with any stealth mission with completely unstealthy warframes. Just one example, but I just wish they had waited to release the operators until something like that was actually done. : ( 

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