Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Who here actually likes the lore changes post The Second Dream?


Nukesnipe
 Share

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Aimop95 said:

The only whines I've heard so far that come from the Operators would be them being slightly pissed at Teshin when he called them children, hardly a case for saying that they're incapable of building a culture.

Someone who sulks when they are called a child is a child. I'd like it if the Tenno acted their age, their mental age, the length of time in which they have been active, not the age one would guess by looking at their faces. 

 

The Second Dream was called lucid. A lucid dream. And yet, with every reveal, what we learn is that we learned nothing. We retain nothing. The people we were when we fought in the Old War, those people died the second the Transference pod was cracked open, and we apparently reverted to being children fresh off the Zariman.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

That's not headcanon. The Tenno built the Dojos, created the Focus Schools, and designed the Boar Prime and Dragon Nikana. Now. That's either retconned out, or the Operators are just completely and utterly severed from what they were.

 

So you really didn't pay any attention to TSD.

 

Your operator was shown clearly remembering the schools.

 

The Warframes and weapons were built for them, that's also mentioned several times. The Tenno being kids is as old as Ember is, her entire bio is all about that.

 

Titania's quest is all about her being built and who built her. 

 

The Zariman kids are what the whole Tenno thing are based around. The only thing that's changed about that is the size of the ship from a research vessel to a colony ship. When the ship got lost in the void the kids got powers and the adults went insane. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

Someone who sulks when they are called a child is a child. I'd like it if the Tenno acted their age, their mental age, the length of time in which they have been active, not the age one would guess by looking at their faces. 

 

The Second Dream was called lucid. A lucid dream. And yet, with every reveal, what we learn is that we learned nothing. We retain nothing. The people we were when we fought in the Old War, those people died the second the Transference pod was cracked open, and we apparently reverted to being children fresh off the Zariman.

Sounds more like a harsh opinion than a fact concerning your sulking point. In any case you are looking only at the start of TWW, which seemed to end explicitly telling us that our Operators, character-wise, are maturing. So in one sense, you're getting your wish of them acting their "age".

 

I don't disagree with your second part, in fact, I personally think that's what happened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Ailissa said:

So you really didn't pay any attention to TSD.

 

Your operator was shown clearly remembering the schools.

 

The Warframes and weapons were built for them, that's also mentioned several times. The Tenno being kids is as old as Ember is, her entire bio is all about that.

 

Titania's quest is all about her being built and who built her. 

 

The Zariman kids are what the whole Tenno thing are based around. The only thing that's changed about that is the size of the ship from a research vessel to a colony ship. When the ship got lost in the void the kids got powers and the adults went insane. 

Boar Prime:
"One of the finest examples of Tenno craftsmanship, the Boar Prime offers," etc.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Boar_Prime

 

Dragon Nikana:
"The Dragon Nikana is forged from ancient Tenno steel. This is a master's weapon, " etc.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Nikana

 

See also the Dakra Prime, Orthos, Paris, there are several other weapons out there which are described in their own wrtieup as having been made by the Tenno.

 

Focus Schools
Lotus: "As the Tenno grew, they founded Great Schools...."

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PquOK38zrvs#t=11m35s

 

 

The Tenno had craftsmen and weaponsmiths. They founded the Great Schools. Is this now to be regarded as non-canonical? If so, that is basically the definition of a retcon.

 

 

Edited by BornWithTeeth
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Aimop95 said:

Sounds more like a harsh opinion than a fact concerning your sulking point. In any case you are looking only at the start of TWW, which seemed to end explicitly telling us that our Operators, character-wise, are maturing. So in one sense, you're getting your wish of them acting their "age".

 

I don't disagree with your second part, in fact, I personally think that's what happened.

The problem is that if that's the case, then DE's official position is that the Tenno really have gone from being stoic space ninjas to a bunch of whiny children who need a slap upside the head and to be told to grow up.

 

 

What. The. Eff. I am beyond disgusted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

The problem is that if that's the case, then DE's official position is that the Tenno really have gone from being stoic space ninjas to a bunch of whiny children who need a slap upside the head and to be told to grow up.

 

 

What. The. Eff. I am beyond disgusted.

So we got our slap in TWW. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Nukesnipe said:
Spoiler

In my opinion, Operators completely ruined Warframe lore, creating massive piles of contradiction and making the playable Warframes entirely uninteresting and indistinguishable drones that lack any personality.  Yeah, the various quest related Warframes that were out before TSD (Mirage, Limbo) were specifically copies of the actual Warframes, but it had a hint of necromancy and bringing them back from the dead, if not wholly.  Those primordial, 'original' Warframes explicitly had personality.  Lotus was implied to be friends with Mirage, and was distraught when she died.  Inaros told the Lotus to frak off so he could stick around doing his thing, Limbo was this sort of mathmagician that ended up blowing himself up on accident.  They had personality, they had actually interesting stories.  It was fun to design my various 'frames as if they were actual characters.  My Trinity dressed up in white and red and was the fussy team mom who babysat her team and chastised them when they got hurt, my Gersemi Valkyr is a friendly catgirl that devolves into RIP AND TEAR RIP AND TEAR RIP AND TEAR with a big frakoff zweihander, et cetera.

 

I don't with agree with you in this case, OP. But I understand you. Warframe persisted for a long time with entirely silent protagonists. This allowed the player to invent personalities based on the appearances and playstyles of the Warframes themselves, or just simply out of personal preference. This allows for the player to impart a personality to their Warframe. These personalities can be very different from player to player (you may see Trin as a "team mom", others may see her as continually angry, etc.), or impart no personality at all. When Operators came along, we suddenly were told that the Warframes we'd been imparting personality on didn't have this personality, had little to no free agency and were instead just shells for the Operators, who have some amount of voice and personality built in. This change can be very destructive to a player's perception of a game's characters.

In another example, Metroid Other M allowed Samus to speak for the first time in the long history of the franchise, and many people were incredibly unhappy about this. In lieu of a silent protag throughout the Metroid series, the player was able to impart whatever personality they wanted onto Samus, but when the franchise gave Samus a voice, many players found an incongruity between the character and how they imagined her.

DE mentioned before the release of the Second Dream that not all players would be happy with the outcome. Some would be angry at it. But it's clear that they had the Operator idea for quite some time and were going to implement it at some point. I for one am pretty enthused about this new element that is the Operators. They add an important foil to the Warframe. They are the "Tenno weakness", an element that is essential to our power but also quite frail. A being that, behind the cold and efficient metal mask, is still learning and making mistakes, can be gravely wounded and take some time to put things back together.

If you're still really pissed off about the change, there are some things you can consider. There is still a lot of evidence that points to Warframes having their own intelligence. The climax of the Second Dream is a prime example, with our Warframe breaking War without any connection to the Operator. While this may be a teaser to the improvements in Transference we discovered in the War Within, it may also be a sign that the Warframe is more than a high-tech golem. Despite all the mysteries that have come into the light, there's still so much we can only guess at. We still don't know what a Warframe really is or how it works, exactly.

From a gameplay perspective, you can toggle off the Operator popping up in the mission broadcasts, if you want.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Aimop95 said:

So we got our slap in TWW. 

See, I could actually live with that. I really could. I could accept that we restart our sense of progression and character growth, and that we will become, for real, the space ninjas that the Orokin only brainwashed us to be...if I had any trust at all remaining for DE.

 

 

However, I do not. I do not remotely trust Digital Extremes not to balls it up. Not anymore. I am willing to make you a wager, and I encourage you to screencap it and hold me to it. Aimo, I will bet you 500 Platinum that the next time the Operator makes a significant appearance in a quest, they will be some combination of petulant/whiny/childishly cocky, before getting taken down a peg in a way which could have been avoided had they been careful, humble, and paranoid, as a good space ninja should be.

 

 

Basically....the slapping will never, ever end. From now on, quests about the Tenno will be about how much they suck, because that's how DE have decided they are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Halo did a much better deconstruction of the power armor supersoldier and fragility of the operators. The Spartans even started out as child soldiers like Tenno did. And Halo did this without revealing Master Chief being a child as some hamfisted allegorical contrast to the power armored Spartan-II persona.

 

 

Edited by ninjacat2015
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

See, I could actually live with that. I really could. I could accept that we restart our sense of progression and character growth, and that we will become, for real, the space ninjas that the Orokin only brainwashed us to be...if I had any trust at all remaining for DE.

 

 

However, I do not. I do not remotely trust Digital Extremes not to balls it up. Not anymore. I am willing to make you a wager, and I encourage you to screencap it and hold me to it. Aimo, I will bet you 500 Platinum that the next time the Operator makes a significant appearance in a quest, they will be some combination of petulant/whiny/childishly cocky, before getting taken down a peg in a way which could have been avoided had they been careful, humble, and paranoid, as a good space ninja should be.

 

 

Basically....the slapping will never, ever end. From now on, quests about the Tenno will be about how much they suck, because that's how DE have decided they are.

This is what I'm not understanding, your mind is clearly made up, DE is clearly not going to go a route you care to ride along with and no argument no matter how well reasoned is going to sway your opinion, so... 

 Why are you still here? Your posts drip with the certainty that DE will not change it's mind on any of this so it can't be in the spirit of change or constructive feedback.  At this point is just seems like you are throwing a tantrum that the lore has failed you and is continuing to fail you which, considering how many times you've typed whiny in this thread is painfully ironic.

 I'm not attempting to be insulting with that, it's just rather ridiculous that the level of skepticism you are bringing to the discussion is borderline toxic.

As for the XCOM comparison, and? That's a AAA game from a studio that had solid development time to accomplish that. Warframe is an ever evolving free to play that needs constant content release to stay afloat and that takes development time away from complex systems that have had the benefit to be play tested for in some cases, years. Yeah, I'd love to see such a system in place in pretty much every game ever but the rational adult in me knows that just isn't realistic.

 I think it's a fair time to state that I was in the remaining a voiceless protagonist camp initially. TSD certainly wasn't what I was expecting nor what I thought I wanted but as a writer myself I understood that this isn't my ship to steer. This is DE's story, we are just along for the ride and we are free to disembark at any point should we choose to.

 This is just in regards to story, I will rage just as hard as anyone else when it comes to gameplay mechanics and/or systems and what I think is a horrible design choice, but story is a take it or leave it kind of deal. I'm at least thankful we are getting some choice in how our personality plays out at all, it's not something I would have believed would happen in this game when I was first drawn to it years ago.

Edited by Kedai
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Kedai You're right in that it's no longer especially productive for me to be posting in the thread, and while you didn't say "If you don't like it, get out", that is probably what I'll end up doing for a while. I was posting quite intensively on the issue now because from my perspective, the problem is very recent: DE delayed the War Within for months, but when it came out, it turned out that they had colossally dropped the ball in terms of both narrative (Operators really are weak and emotionally imbalanced children) and mechanics (dear god, Riven mods, especially when they first came out).

 

It's not that I'm dramatically uninstalling Warframe, that's not really me, but I will probably be playing a lot less, and spending more time on other games. I'll play the next major quest when it comes out, hopefully within six months, and if it turns out that I'm wrong, that DE decide to stop pushing with sledgehammer subtlety the narrative that Operators are weak, whiny, and insecure, then I'll be delighted to pay Aimo his 500 Plat, and resume playing at a greater rate. I just, well. I don't expect that.

 

 

Anyway, night!

 

Sod it. I'll play through the War Within once more this evening, just to see if I might turn my impression around. No promises, mind. 

Edited by BornWithTeeth
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's classic issue of giving protagonists voice actors. The moment you put voice acting to RPG characters, you immediately flatten the number of possible choices a Player can make governing their behavior. Great examples the difference between Fallout 3/New Vegas and Fallout 4.

It's also a conflict between classical Western RPG and JRPG forms.

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

And this is what's kinda gone wrong with the Operator implementation. Prior to Second Dream we (the player) were our character, in the Western style. Post Second Dream we had a massive tone shift moving more towards a JRPG style. It suddenly turned the "operator" into a character we (the player) puppet instead of us being that character.

That's going to be the hedge maze DE is going to have navigate themselves out of.

======

And there are ways to do that. For example...

Firstly The War Within has open up some breathing room. The Operator that awoke in the Second Dream is not the essence of the player. "Child" is not the dreaming warrior the Orokin created by combining the Zariman Ten Zero children and the Infested Warframes. Those First Dream Warriors died when Natah used the Tenno to kill the Orokin and then put them into deep sleep.

Is the Player that Dream Warrior? No, not totally. The Player has retained an omniscient 3rd person perspective even when the Operator takes physical form. However the Player does not have full knowledge of what happened during the old War, but goes about building new weapons, Warframes, and other gear. We do Warrior things, without really having a context for them.

So what is the Player?

"Hey, kiddo, what took you so long? You mad at me, kiddo? Did you forget? You owe me. Just remember kiddo, you're nothing without me."

Some people are assuming this is the voice of the Void, whoever in Lore we've never really been given a reason to suspect the Void itself has any kind of individual will. This could very well be the Player, the disembodied will of the Dream. Like a split personality made manifest. The Player puppeting the Operator is the current expression of that Dream, which actually started in the Void changed Zariman Ten Zero children into creatures of pure energy.

Even though the children are now awake, we, the Second Dream Warrior aren't over.

Edited by Brasten
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I llike how you believe that all individuality in these frames just suddenly vanishes because they are controlled. Warframes are based off of the original operator. The memories and feelings of said operator are then imprinted onto the frame due to the symbiotic relationship+transference (my theory.). As for what the frames are that hasn't changed really. We know more about the operators than the frames still. Really the only thing that changed was the source.  Nothing else. Just sounds like you're upset because it messes with your head cannon. Kind of what happens when you start to better detail your vague universe. Todays lore fits because the hints were always there. End of. and yes. I love this lore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, ninjacat2015 said:

Halo did a much better deconstruction of the power armor supersoldier and fragility of the operators. The Spartans even started out as child soldiers like Tenno did. And Halo did this without revealing Master Chief being a child as some hamfisted allegorical contrast to the power armored Spartan-II persona.

 

 

The major problem with your comparison is that there is no fragility in Spartans. Spartans outside the suit are still Spartans. However, Tenno without their warframes are merely volatile void batteries.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...