Banshee's kit upped

[Arachn3x]

Some peoples like banshee as she is (mostly cause of the character design i think), and some others think that she needs a rework. In my opinion, I really think that she needs more love compared to other warframes and she needs more efficiency.

Dont forget that it is a suggestion, numbers are here to give ideas of change, have to be adjusted and are not here to suggest something over powered, I am just talking about new skills MECHANICS and NOT DAMAGE.

 

- Passive : banshee is surrounded by an aura of silence, all noises are hushed for her and her allies ( same effect as 3rd skill silence BUT without the initial stun). Range of the aura is 30 meters

 

- Sonic Boom : AoE increased from 180 degree to 360 degree

 

- Sonar : Ennemies in the initial sonar range are indicated on the radar AND can be seen through walls and any covers. It also exposes ennemies weaknesses (weak points will not be random anymore), giving a +50% bonus damage (green color indicator on all the target's body) and +350% bonus damage (yellow indicator on the critical weak spot).

In case of multiple Sonar cast :

                         -The +50% bonus damage is applyed only 1 time and will never stack

                         - The +350% bonus damage on the critical weak spot can stack up to 3 times for a total of +1050% bonus damage ( with color indicator : +350% damage= yellow area, +700% damage = orange area / +1050% area = red area)

                         - The critical weak point area will be extended by 50% on each additionnal cast of the sonar up to 2 times. All extended area produced will start on the first stack of bonus damage (+350%). That means with 5 cast of sonar, you can have the maximum bonus damage (1050%) on a 100% extended area.

Explanation ------> 1st sonar cast = Creation of the weak point (indicated in yellow) for +350% damage

                   ------> 2nd sonar cast = The initial weak point area is boosted (now indicated in orange) for +700% damage and creation of the 50% extended area (indicated in yellow) for +350% damage

                   ------> 3rd sonar cast = The initial weak point area is now maxed (indicated in red) for +1050% damage, the 2nd 50% extended area is boosted  (indicated in orange) for +700% damage and creation of a 3rd 100ù extended area (indicated in yellow) for +350% damage.

                   ------> 4th sonar cast = The 2nd 50% extended area is now maxed (indicated in red) for +1050% damage and the 3rd 100% extended area is boosted (indicated in orange) for +700% damage

                   ------> 5th sonar cast = the 3rd 100% extended area is now maxed (indicated in red) for +1050% damage

 

- Strident Sound ( Silence reworked) : This skill surrounds Banshee in a 20 radius aura that last for 25 seconds. On activation banshee emits a strident sound that stun ennemies in the area for 2 seconds, then every 5 seconds for 25 seconds, another strident sound is done. When an ennemy enter the area he is immediatly stunned regardless.

 

- Sound Quake : While channeling banshee is invincible (or got high damage reduction like 50% or 80%) but looses energy for all damage negated

 

Hope you like this, leave a constructive comment if you want to. Thanks

Edited November 20, 2016 by Arachn3x

[AsuraKyu]

If I am being honest the only change I liked here was making her 1 a 360 degree instead of a cone. I think she has a really good kit which can easily appeal to gunplay or sword play which I find unique along with a good amount of CC she's one of the only frames I find in a good place, especially compared too most. 

[Arachn3x]

25 minutes ago, AsuraKyu said:

If I am being honest the only change I liked here was making her 1 a 360 degree instead of a cone. I think she has a really good kit which can easily appeal to gunplay or sword play which I find unique along with a good amount of CC she's one of the only frames I find in a good place, especially compared too most. 

It s not big changes just some improvements on skills mechanic giving her more efficiency and more surviability.

Like this the sonar is more usefull cause you can see ennemies positions and profile through walls, and the weak point becomes bigger and stronger on multiple casts which allow a good synergize with the mod "resonance".

As it is actually, "Silence" is just not enough. The single mini stun and the silenced area are not worth it. That s why i suggest to give her the silence as a passive and give her a viable 3rd skill which allow her to have better succession of mini stuns.

And finally as a squishy warframe, banshee is REALLY vulnerable while channeling her "sound quake", that s why she needs in my opinion some damage reduction / or invulnerability at the cost of energy if u get hit.

[Gurpgork]

I'm with @AsuraKyu on this one. Something you have to keep in mind when talking about Banshee is that she has the absolute most powerful damage amp in the game. This means two things: One, that she needs to be handled with care to avoid making her seriously overpowered, and two, that adding even more damage to Sonar is nothing besides overkill. 

13 minutes ago, Arachn3x said:

As it is actually, "Silence" is just not enough. The single mini stun and the silenced area are not worth it.

I agree that the silenced aura isn't really worthwhile in its current state, but the ministuns are actually the only defense that Banshee really needs, since she can chain-stun enemies by edging them in and out of the radius. Of course, this does require a fair bit of practice, and you probably need to have ~100% range to pull it off, but that's what keeps Banshee's potentially absurd power in check. 

16 minutes ago, Arachn3x said:

And finally as a squishy warframe, banshee is REALLY vulnerable while channeling her "sound quake",

That's sort of the point. You're supposed to be vulnerable while channeling Sound Quake. Sound Quake is an ability capable of total map lockdown, which is something that should not come without heavy drawbacks, lest the game becomes an absolute cakewalk. The fact that she's completely defenseless while channelling it is the only thing preventing it from turning the game into a complete and total snooze fest. 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I can agree with Sonic Boom being 360°

On Sonar aside from enemy highlight (X-ray through walls), which might be considered a performance issue from DE) : Your suggestion on multiple casts would be a nerf to current Sonar stacking.

Aura Passive hushing allies and but still only defeaning for 30meters presents the same issue current Silence Aura has:

Enemy gunfire has an average of 45m range which means any enemy that saw you and shot has now alerted other enemies beyond the Deafened Aura range.

 

If you play current Silence with a 50m Range (250% range) you practically have Stealth mode, in terms of enemy alertness.

-The protective stun issue is what becomes an issue when expanding Range that much though.

The current work around is too run min duration which allows Silence 3sec stun to be cast every 3.12secs, so almost a 50m stun spam.

Which would be the go to if Silence is made recastable as now a long Duration would allow Silence spam to work in conjunction with Sonic Fracture or Sonar/Resonance. (Even with a 3sec cool down it would be a tremendous boost to Banshee overall)

 

The more reasonable approach would be to allow Sonic Boom to refresh stun on enemies inside Silence stun Aura.

-The change of it being 360° offers better protection

Given for Savage Silence where you lose the finisher prompt when combining Duration with Range thus cancelling the benefit of Finisher prompt....Sonic Boom renewing the stun could be way more Melee friendly than ragdolling the enemies .

Currently, I see Silence(Savage) as being for Banshee Melee while Sonar or Sonic Fracture fair better with Gunplay.

Sonic Boom ragdolling enemies is great CC when doing Gunplay. Ragdolling when trying to Melee is not as intuitive or useful.(I think Sonic Boom acting as a Silence stun refresh would useful without destroying current Banshee playstyles)

Your Strident Sound does sound like what Savage Silence should be. So that there is a finisher prompt available for the entire duration of the ability. (I had suggested a double Aura, where outer Aura only had initial entry stun and adjusted with Range mods and then an inner Aura that was locked at 5m that way Banshee always could perform finishers with Savage Silence active.)

 

Sonic Boom refreshing Silence or Savage Silence stun in a 360° rather than a cone would be a most welcome change to Banshee.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Just to clarify why I said Sonar tweaks would be a nerf:

Current Sonar with no additional Power Strength is 500% damage multiplier which is stackable

If duration and luck on Highlighted overlapping occur you can stack Sonar as much as energy reserves allow until 1st initial Sonar duration ends.

Let's say you cast 20 sonars within initial 30 seconds: if only 5 of those Sonars overlap the same area you are looking at 5*5*5*5*5=3,125

That is a 3,125 times multiplier for 5 overlapping casts at base 100% power strength.

Or 312,500% compared to what you suggested at +1050%

1050% is only a 10.5x Multiplier

 

That's a nerf to Banshee

 

[Arachn3x]

3 hours ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

Just to clarify why I said Sonar tweaks would be a nerf:

Current Sonar with no additional Power Strength is 500% damage multiplier which is stackable

If duration and luck on Highlighted overlapping occur you can stack Sonar as much as energy reserves allow until 1st initial Sonar duration ends.

Let's say you cast 20 sonars within initial 30 seconds: if only 5 of those Sonars overlap the same area you are looking at 5*5*5*5*5=3,125

That is a 3,125 times multiplier for 5 overlapping casts at base 100% power strength.

Or 312,500% compared to what you suggested at +1050%

1050% is only a 10.5x Multiplier

 

That's a nerf to Banshee

 

Thanks for your answers, it s interresting and i really appreciate it.

Just want to say again that we are not here to speak about numbers but about skill mechanics.

For the silence aura as passive as i suggested, the real question is : is it a good thing or not ??? I dont wanna argue about the 30 meters radius i mentionned because it s not the point. maybe you can say 30 meters is not enough, she needs more, you can also say that if it s 30 meters at start, it has to scale with mods to increase this. You can say this, it s interresting, but it s not the point.

Same thing with the "Sonar" ...  The thing to understand is that i suggest : weak points will not be random anymore, the area will be larger for each additional sonar ( 3 stack max) and same mechanic for increased damages. I said 1050% max, maybe she needs 5000% maybe 100000% or maybe 2000000000000% ..... that s not the point....

I just mentionned numbers to illustrate how the skill can work with my suggestion.

[Azamagon]

If I may add some ideas?
(Note: I'm not entirely sure about what to do with Silence)

Passive
Keep it as it is (OP's aura-idea might work too though), but also add: Banshee deals 10% (or even 15%?) more damage to enemies who are unalerted/unaware, deafened or blinded. This gives her a decent passive even for those moments when the silencing is useless, but still also goes well WITH the silence.

Sonic Boom
Rather than make it 360 degrees, I'd add a few other things:
* Onehanded cast
* Can be aimed freely (not just used as a frontal cone)
* On top of the conical blast, she also unleashes a relatively thin soundbeam (think, Opticor), with 100% accuracy where she aims her cursor, which has infinite range and high Finisher-damage (and also causes knockdown). Why this addition? So she can synergize with Sonar weakspots, even if going "caster mode" only!
* Enemies hit by Sonic Boom (be it the cone or the beam) also have their accuracy heavily reduced for a moderate duration (potency modified by Power Strength, and duration modified by Power Duration)

Sonar
I'd give this several simple tweaks:
* Energycost reduced to 25 (from 50)
* Damageamp reduced to 2x/2,5x/3x/3,5x (from 2x/3x/4x/5x)
* Can also be holdcast to toggle on/off for the ability to be"ping-cast", which causes the ability to be cast automatically every 4 seconds (when autocast, it has no casting animation). Fits the ability itself (you know, Sonar, Radar?) and it helps her need to cast it constantly when new enemies arrive, alleviating some of the "necessity" of using the Resonance augment. Also, since it is toggleable with holdcast, it is entirely optional. Also note: When toggled on, it does NOT stop you from gaining energy.
* The reason for the reduction in energycost and damage amp is also to make it a bit more generally useful (as it is often extreme overkill, both amp and energy-wise, making it kinda unnecessary to use for most missions), and to make sure the suggested ping-cast is not an extreme energy-drain as well.

Silence
I'd either make it recastable and/or add something else to it, or just revamp it entirely. Not sure what my stance is on this ability yet.
If the passive takes up most of Silence's utility, becoming something as the OP suggests (such as: an ally-silencing and enemy-deafening (without the stun) aura), then I'd maybe suggest to give her something like a mobility skill? Or some decoy? Some kind of indirect survivability like that. That, or something to aid her further in her damage-dealing department. Pretty much anything that would help her out, without making her directly tankier.

Possible replacement ideas just for brainstorming, in the following spoiler:

Echo Chamber - 25 energy
(Onehanded cast) Debuffs an enemy, slowing it down for X seconds and causes any damage dealt to it to instantly create harmful sonic shockwaves to appear from it, dealing X% of the damage it suffered to also be dealt to all enemies in an AoE around it, as well as slowing them down for a brief moment (like 2 seconds or so).
Power Strength = Potency of the damage AoE
Power Range = Radius of the damage AoE
Power Duration = Debuff duration
Idea behind it? To add synergy to her damagecapabilities of Sonar (and the beam-addition of Sonic Boom) and Soundquake. If this would be the replacement for Silence, I'd even suggest that it could be castable during the stationary version of Soundquake! Due to its mechanics, it would also reward you for prioritizing the tough targets (as then you'd "passively" also kill / slow the potential smallfry around it). Further, since it slows down the target(s), it allows you to more easily aim on Sonar-spots!
I find this ability more fitting, but maybe it's too dull? Too good (or even too bad?)

Echo Step - 25 energy
Banshee blasts herself forward, quickly propelling herself X meters forward in the aimed direction (think: a "burstier" Tailwind), while also leaving behind an invulnerable echo decoy where she launched from (only living for a brief moment, like 5 seconds or so). Could possibly also knock down enemies down in an AoE at the spot she launched from, as well as all enemies she possibly collides with along her travel)
Power Strength = ?
Power Range = Distance travelled
Power Duration = Duration of the echo decoy
Idea behind it? Mobility and distraction-based survivability. Fitting for a sniper, imo. But for a soundbased caster, I dunno, seems odd, no?

Soundquake
I have 2 ideas for this ability:

Version 1 - Stationary, but more interactive
* Still roots Banshee in place and does the Soundquake as we all know.
* While rooted, Banshee can do 2 additional attacks:
*** Fire button (Mouse 1) causes a powerful localllized blast to occur in a moderate AoE on the ground, closest to where she is looking (but never spawned further away than SQ's range). This deals very high damage (50/50 as blast and finisher?) and knocks the enemies down.
*** Aim button (Mouse 2) causes a wave of sound to travel in a broad line along the ground, towards where she is looking (but never travels further away than SQ's range). This deals medium damage and knocks enemies down and pushes them away a bit (but never out of SQ's range)
*** Both of these attacks cost additional energy to do (whatever energy cost that may be), and can only be cast every 2 seconds. Both of these attacks also have a rather high hitbox (so it can hit ospreys and such very easily). Think of them looking like a void-energy-fueled shockwave explosion and a void-energy-fueled shockwave "tsunami", respectively.
*** Reasons for existances of both attacks: Both are there for adding interactivity (ofc), the blast is there to reward aiming and positioning (as it is very powerful, but requires line of sight) while the wave is nice to hit enemies when you can't see them (as it travels through walls) and/or to make sure to keep them further away from whatever you might be defending.

Version 2 - Soundquake bomb, allowing mobility
* Upon cast, Banshee summons an orb of void energy on the ground at her current location (could still use her current casting animation, but highly sped up), but then she stand up immediately after.
* This orb will eminate the Soundquake (basicly, allowing her to move).
* This soundquake should have a max duration (say, up to 10 seconds? Moddable with power duration of course)
* Recasting will stop the orb from doing the Soundquake, making the orb vanish early too.
* Energy cost could either be flat 100 energy -or- costs 25 energy to place + 7,5 energycost per second it is active.

[BansheePrime]

Ahhhgg you people trying to touch Sonar and Sonic Boom. Stop trying to change something that aint broken for the sake of changing it. The only changes they could do with are one handed casting.

Her silence.. either recastable or completely scrapped for something else, its redundant as all hell with her passive, which was something I was completely against because it was literally the ability without a stun... but HEY! It's a thing now. I will say that i liked the idea of silence sending out pulsating stuns every 5 seconds. But only if that every 5 second stun remains static and does not increase to every 10 seconds with positive duration, or become more frequent with negative duration.

Suggestion I saw long ago for her sound quake that I liked was to make it a quake spike that was a place able thing that acts the same as it does now but with reduced damage.

Edited November 20, 2016 by maj.death

[(PSN)MrNishi]

3 hours ago, maj.death said:

I don't see what is wrong with allowing Sonic Boom to refresh Silence's Stun.

Maybe you are correct "Don't fix what is not broken"

 

I think there is a divide split on Silence:

Some just see it as a useless ability

Then there are those of us that see the Stun being Crucial to Banshee's survivability.

- Going as far as people running Narrow-minded with Savage Silence which with the reduced range greatly diminished her other abilities.(Sonic Boom/Sonar/Sound Quake and their respective Augments)

Or Running Minimum duration to almost perma-stun (Which again hurts Duration based Sonic Fracture, Sonar & Resonance Augment)

Radial Blind is recastable and 1-handed along with having a Blind that lasts the full duration allowing for Stealth Melee Multiplier to last duration of Blind.

I don't think having Sonic Boom renew/refresh Silence Stun on Aura affected enemies instead of Ragdolling is too much of a change to ask. I also feel it would be more balanced than just allowing Silence to be recastable regardless of duration. Perma-stun spam & full access to Resonance Sonar would be ridiculous.

 

@Arachn3x 

It was more than just a numbers multiplier issue with your changes to Sonar.

Current random weak points allow for a more Melee friendly highlighted weak point.

Your suggestion of it applying on a designated weak point makes Sonar that much more biased towards Gun play.

Which I suppose can be fine, rewarding precise consistently placed shots.

I sorta fear my Melee Banshee playstyle would need to be abandoned with Community suggestions that have been in regards to Banshee and especially Silence. (My overreacting, sorry if it came across as me Bing defensive or dismissive or your ideas.)

[DreamsmithJane]

Passive: No-cost aura might be a bit OP. Weapon noise would become irrelevant just because Banshee exists, and she wouldn't have to manage energy at all for this effect. Leave it on Silence.

Sonic Boom: I'd rather have a one-handed cast than a 360-degree effect. Panic button cancelling reload is annoying.

Sonar: Automatic stacking with repeated casts, but it's no longer exponential, and it's capped? No, thanks. That's a huge nerf for no particular reason. I already have a x10 Sonar multiplier that becomes x100 with two stacks (easy with Resonance), or x1000 with three.

Silence: It already stuns every time enemies enter its radius, not just one time per cast. This change is too much work on something that already functions well and creates a unique playstyle. Making it easy to get repeated stuns would come with a cost in terms of balance, and she would have to get nerfed in other areas. This would make her less powerful for players who already know how to play her well (and can, for example, edge-dance Silence's range to permastun enemies), and less engaging as well, because it would erase the need to stay on the move.

Soundquake: Needs to be replaced by something that doesn't root her in place or disable her weapons. I almost don't care what, but this AFK power is stupid, and it needs to go. It's not even useful, because Silence stuns. Even the augment damage is irrelevant when we have guns that more reliably hit Sonar spots for more damage. The only thing it's good for is deciding you don't want to play the game anymore, and if that's the case, leave the mission and let the rest of us have a go. Please give Banshee a proper ult that fits her theme and is fun, instead of defeating/circumventing gameplay.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

None of these "Buff Banshee" OPs really care to work with what Banshee already has or attempt to keep the core of her abilities intact, so whenever I read something like "give her more armor", "replace Silence" or "make SQ a mobile skill", I can't but shake my head. The point of a glass cannon is that she'll go down first in a squad if the player wielding her doesn't negate it with his input, so any buffs to her survivability shouldn't be direct but indirect, giving the player more opportunities to avoid damage, if they handle the situation correctly. Silence is a good stealth support skill that only lacks a generic combat run and gun use, so instead of replacing it'd be much more adequate to give it a second(third, if you count diminished enemy reactions) direct effect to work with. Since Banshee's skill lack synergy, such a proposed, additional effect would be a total waste if it didn't create a situation in which one or more abilities can benefit while cast in combination with Silence. Lastly, and that's probably what bugs me the most, is that Sound Quake should remain stationary. Both main problems the ability has can be solved without needing to kill one of the few turret abilities we have in the game. The issue of lacking interactivity can be counteracted by giving it a second mechanic directly controlled by the player, and the problem regarding being immediately vulnerable as soon as one ends Sound Quake also isn't an issue anymore once you bless any enemy affected by Quake with a guaranteed knockdown when the ability is canceled.

None of the abilities need to be replaced, especially not her last two. Enhanced they can definitely be, but there's no reason to replace them other than to make Banshee conform to a more generic playstyle.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

4 hours ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

I don't see what is wrong with allowing Sonic Boom to refresh Silence's Stun.

Maybe you are correct "Don't fix what is not broken"

 

I think there is a divide split on Silence:

Some just see it as a useless ability

Then there are those of us that see the Stun being Crucial to Banshee's survivability.

- Going as far as people running Narrow-minded with Savage Silence which with the reduced range greatly diminished her other abilities.(Sonic Boom/Sonar/Sound Quake and their respective Augments)

Or Running Minimum duration to almost perma-stun (Which again hurts Duration based Sonic Fracture, Sonar & Resonance Augment)

Radial Blind is recastable and 1-handed along with having a Blind that lasts the full duration allowing for Stealth Melee Multiplier to last duration of Blind.

I don't think having Sonic Boom renew/refresh Silence Stun on Aura affected enemies instead of Ragdolling is too much of a change to ask. I also feel it would be more balanced than just allowing Silence to be recastable regardless of duration. Perma-stun spam & full access to Resonance Sonar would be ridiculous.

 

@Arachn3x 

It was more than just a numbers multiplier issue with your changes to Sonar.

Current random weak points allow for a more Melee friendly highlighted weak point.

Your suggestion of it applying on a designated weak point makes Sonar that much more biased towards Gun play.

Which I suppose can be fine, rewarding precise consistently placed shots.

I sorta fear my Melee Banshee playstyle would need to be abandoned with Community suggestions that have been in regards to Banshee and especially Silence. (My overreacting, sorry if it came across as me Bing defensive or dismissive or your ideas.)

I feel that we're on the same level when it comes to Silence's theorycrafting and build knowledge. I completely agree to all that you mentioned in this post, and I like Resonance Sonar as it is as well.

I personally run a 254% duration 79% range Savage Silence Banshee, or a 154% duration 100% range 254% power strength Resonance Savage Silence Banshee. I used to run a 40% duration 100-115% range Savage Silence Banshee, but figured the small dip on range for a high duration build (the former aforementioned one) suited my mobile-melee playstyle with Banshee better than recasting every 7 seconds. Minimum duration of 12% for 3 seconds of Silence per cast was a bit too button-mashy for me.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Yeah min 12% duration is really only useful at the point where you need to Not get 1-shotted or when solo protecting Defense oriented objectives like solo excavations.

50m Range with 12% duration allows enough mobility to gather Power Cores while minimizing incoming damage to Self & Extractor. 

Yeah not needed for normal missions.

That is part of the versatility that Banshee offers to those willing to invest in tuning her current ability set to playstyle/mission.

 

10 hours ago, maj.death said:

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

I feel that we're on the same level when it comes to Silence's theorycrafting and build knowledge. I completely agree to all that you mentioned in this post, and I like Resonance Sonar as it is as well.

I personally run a 254% duration 79% range Savage Silence Banshee, or a 154% duration 100% range 254% power strength Resonance Savage Silence Banshee. I used to run a 40% duration 100-115% range Savage Silence Banshee, but figured the small dip on range for a high duration build (the former aforementioned one) suited my mobile-melee playstyle with Banshee better than recasting every 7 seconds. Minimum duration of 12% for 3 seconds of Silence per cast was a bit too button-mashy for me.