Riven mod system is worthless

[Redthirst]

And here's why:

The idea of the whole system is to supposedly make less powerful weapons viable. But let me ask you this question - viable where exactly? There's not much content that requires this kind of power. Sorties? Why would you play them once you have your Riven mods? Not to mention that a lot of the weak weapons won't do well on Sorties when you get some bullS#&$ like Sortie 3 Grineer with Augmented Armor, even if you have a good Riven mod for it. Sure, you can play Endless, if you are willing to wait for like half an hour for worthwhile enemies to spawn, there's also no real reason to go that far, and enemy scaling will ensure that you won't be able to progress past a certain point(so due to Rivens, instead of not being able to kill level 60 enemies, you will stop at level 90, so good). Trials? We have two and you don't need a weapon in either of them.

But ok, lets assume that DE are able to make a new content that is fun to play and requires you to get a decent Riven to start. So, you farm your Riven, reroll it until you get decent stats, and start playing this new content. What do you see? People running Simulor Mirages and Tigris Primes! Well of course! Why bother with Rivens when you can just get already OP weapons and roll through this new content. But at least more weapons are viable, right?

Well, not exactly. Thing is, with non-existent balance, we'll quickly see this content become boring to people who run OP weapons, or people who got very good stats on their Rivens for mediocre weapons. At this point, we're back at our current situation where improving your gear is mostly pointless because there's not much to do with your more powerful stuff. Unless, of course, DE implement some sort of scaling that makes this content more difficult if needed. But even assuming that the scaling isn't broken(which is quite a stretch seeing how good our current scaling systems are), we arrive at square one, where some weapons are noticeably better than others no matter what, only we will also have some content that is EXCLUSIVE to people using the most powerful gear.

 

To clarify on my point - the idea is worthless on its own, because it won't magically fix ALL the balance issues without external balancing. It will bring some of the weaker weapons up, but once we get some actual solid content, current OP weapons will still trump the weaker ones, and Rivens won't really help there.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Redthirst

[OnTarasMind]

It really all comes down to whether or not you want to use Riven mods for those weapons. I know plenty of people who would love to use weapons like the Flux Rifle, Dera, Stradavar and many more weapons because they want them to be good, and if you don't like the system, then don't use it. It's as simple as that.

[TARINunit9]

Basically what I'm hearing is "unless Riven mods let me solo a hypothetical lvl200 raid with a Lato they have no reason to exist, and thus should have never been made"

[Redthirst]

1 minute ago, Zia_Avenicia said:

It really all comes down to whether or not you want to use Riven mods for those weapons. I know plenty of people who would love to use weapons like the Flux Rifle, Dera, Stradavar and many more weapons because they want them to be good, and if you don't like the system, then don't use it. It's as simple as that.

It's actually not as simple. You see, this system is a way for DE to balance the weapons. It fails at that, but knowing DE, they would use Rivens as an excuse to not do any balancing at all. So we would have all those lovely Mirage Simulor spammers keep doing so, but at least we can make Stradavar into a half-decent weapon.

[-N7-Leonhart]

2 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

It's actually not as simple. You see, this system is a way for DE to balance the weapons. It fails at that, but knowing DE, they would use Rivens as an excuse to not do any balancing at all. So we would have all those lovely Mirage Simulor spammers keep doing so, but at least we can make Stradavar into a half-decent weapon.

That is true.

At the very least, Tonkor, Simulor and other meta weapons have -40% lower stats, while those weapons nobody cares about have +40% better Riven stats. The difference being +80%, I would think that it's a bit better than what we had before.

[Redthirst]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

Basically what I'm hearing is "unless Riven mods let me solo a hypothetical lvl200 raid with a Lato they have no reason to exist, and thus should have never been made"

I've spend the last 5 minutes re-reading my post, trying to figure out how exactly you came to your conclusion, but I couldn't.

I'll try to rephrase that - Riven mods make mediocre weapons "viable" as long as there is no content that requires you to have "viable" weapons. The moment we get such content is the moment where weapon balance becomes a huge issue again.

 

[-QUILL_PETER-]

1 minute ago, Redthirst said:

I've spend the last 5 minutes re-reading my post, trying to figure out how exactly you came to your conclusion, but I couldn't.

I'll try to rephrase that - Riven mods make mediocre weapons "viable" as long as there is no content that requires you to have "viable" weapons. The moment we get such content is the moment where weapon balance becomes a huge issue again.

 

Actually TARIN seems to have a better understanding of what you think than yourself. And if you bothered to watch the Devstream, the Devs themselves explicity stated that when they come across angry posts from entitled people like you, they just ignore them bc they dont want to please that type of person. So you've really just shot yourself in the foot.

[TARINunit9]

2 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

I've spend the last 5 minutes re-reading my post, trying to figure out how exactly you came to your conclusion, but I couldn't.

You came across with an air of "if DE can't succeed they shouldn't even try". I know that the REAL root of your concern is lack of endgame content...

20 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

viable where exactly? There's not much content that requires this kind of power.

...but you sounded like "if DE can't make an endgame they shouldn't even pretend"...

21 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

At this point, we're back at our current situation where improving your gear is mostly pointless because there's not much to do with your more powerful stuff.

 

[Redthirst]

Just now, -BM-Leonhart said:

That is true.

At the very least, Tonkor, Simulor and other meta weapons have -40% lower stats, while those weapons nobody cares about have +40% better Riven stats. The difference being +80%, I would think that it's a bit better than what we had before.

True.

But at best, we'll see a few weapons ascend to the approximate level of Tonkor or Simulor, but a lot will still be a lot worse.

But then I also have to wonder why exactly do we even have Riven mods for Tonkor or Simulor. Because Riven mods for those weapons exist in only 2 states - they are entirely worthless(which means that there's no reason to even have Riven mods for those weapons) or some of them are strong enough to compete for slots with more conventional mods(which still means that OP weapons become more OP - not as OP as before, but any increase in power for these weapons is frankly absurd). Not to mention that it's curious how already overpowered weapons have Riven mods(perhaps none of the possible ones are good on those weapons due to Disposition, but nonetheless) while some of the underpowered weapons(like Snipetron) have none(at least apparently, I can't be sure exactly since we don't have reliable info about that).

[ensignvidiot]

I can use my Burston prime on sorties finally.

I hope to find a solid riven for latron, hikou, phage, and a few oddball melee weapons just to freshen up the lineup after the next riven expansion drops

 

I am happy.

[Redthirst]

5 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

You came across with an air of "if DE can't succeed they shouldn't even try". I know that the REAL root of your concern is lack of endgame content...

And you will be right here.

My point is quite simple, honestly - Riven mods won't fully fix balance issues by default - some of the more egregiously powerful weapons will need to be reined in. But from the looks of things, DE doesn't want to do anything, instead going the "just buff ALL the other weapons" route.

8 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

...but you sounded like "if DE can't make an endgame they shouldn't even pretend"...

More like "Rivens alone won't fix balance enough to make any worthwhile endgame content".

 

12 minutes ago, WraythexXx said:

the Devs themselves explicity stated that when they come across angry posts from entitled people like you, they just ignore them bc they dont want to please that type of person. So you've really just shot yourself in the foot.

Warframe is at the point where it becomes very hard to make a complaint thread without sounding angry or "entitled". Especially when devs were apparently absolutely sure that people will love Riven Mods and totally didn't expect that someone might find a lot of issues with them.

This thread was also mostly aimed at the community(hence why it's in General Discussion instead of Feedback).

[TARINunit9]

Just now, Redthirst said:

Warframe is at the point where it becomes very hard to make a complaint thread without sounding angry or "entitled".

This I can sympathize with, I've been in your position before, trying to address the problem without sounding like whining about it

[Katinka]

4 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

Warframe is at the point where it becomes very hard to make a complaint thread without sounding angry or "entitled".

A good way to start is to not say that something new is "worthless".  Try using different wording that shows you are open-minded and suggesting improvements rather than giving a first impression of "That thing you spent time working on should be binned because I have decreed so!".  Your title will not make people want to find the good in your post, it will make them defensive and inrecptive to your ideas.

[Redthirst]

Just now, Katinka said:

A good way to start is to not say that something new is "worthless".  Try using different wording that shows you are open-minded and suggesting improvements rather than giving a first impression of "That thing you spent time working on should be binned because I have decreed so!".  Your title will not make people want to find the good in your post, it will make them defensive and inrecptive to your ideas.

Yeah, that was probably a good idea.

To clarify on my point - the idea is worthless on its own, because it won't magically fix ALL the balance issues without external balancing. It will bring some of the weaker weapons, but once we get some actual solid content, current OP weapons will still trump the weaker ones, and Rivens won't really help there.

[Midrib]

People saying if you wanted to make lower tier weapon's viable why not just buff em seem to be missing a few things.

Out of all the weapons how many are viable? 20? 30?

By the suggestions of just buff them, DE has to go through every lower tier weapon, buff it, test it, attempt to balance it and then release it, sounds simple enough but with the amount of weapon's that are lower tier and the amount of balancing that goes to each weapon to stop a synoid gammacor situation from happening, it will take them too long and when they do that, you are bound to face many imbalances because launching buffs on that scale is never going out without imbalance.

While riven mods aren't exactly the saving grace of lower tier weapons, going thro every weapon and buffing it might not be the best or most efficient way to go about it.

[Redthirst]

2 minutes ago, Midrib said:

People saying if you wanted to make lower tier weapon's viable why not just buff em seem to be missing a few things.

Out of all the weapons how many are viable? 20? 30?

By the suggestions of just buff them, DE has to go through every lower tier weapon, buff it, test it, attempt to balance it and then release it, sounds simple enough but with the amount of weapon's that are lower tier and the amount of balancing that goes to each weapon to stop a synoid gammacor situation from happening, it will take them too long and when they do that, you are bound to face many imbalances because launching buffs on that scale is never going out without imbalance.

While riven mods aren't exactly the saving grace of lower tier weapons, going thro every weapon and buffing it might not be the best or most efficient way to go about it.

I agree here. Which is why the best way is to simply nerf the most OP stuff. And then add Rivens to try and even the field more.

[Obviousclone]

I don't think riven mods are worthless, I see in trade chat people buying and selling for thousands of platinum.

 

Personally I like to think of Riven mods as just a way to take weapon augment mods (like Gilded Truth) and spread them to all weapons. And also just like a primed mod, it's something for the min maxy "I own everything" players to play around with instead of being bored and burnt out with the game.

No one really cares about the stats on Gilded Truth. 80% bonus attackspeed on a burstfire weapon is just not very useful (if it was we would also see players running speed trigger on the burston prime as well). but I will never use my Burston Prime without it because it's exclusive to that gun. Right now I have an Attica Riven mod, and just because it exists and is sitting in my mod collection, I've repurchased an Attica, levelled it up and I intend to forma it out; even though I have a much stronger 5 forma zhuge.

[Tesseract_The_Pariah]

When you get your riven mod, you use it to boost a weapon you might like that wasn't normally viable in endgame (Sortie, Relics, good ol' endurance runs for the fun of it) better.  The "disposition" system that just added is quite nice.  Regardless. 

The worth in Riven Mods is how they breathe life into old content.  Old weapons, or ones that are subpar but interesting.  I've got an awesome Panthera mod, for instance.  Actually makes it better.  If you don't already like the gameplay loop warframe has to offer, there's not much I or anyone can do for you.  Jump.  Shoot.  Press 1-5, repeat.

[SenorClipClop]

1 hour ago, Redthirst said:

The idea of the whole system is to supposedly make less powerful weapons viable. But let me ask you this question - viable where exactly? There's not much content that requires this kind of power.

I wouldn't call Riven mods 'useless'. What I would call them is 'unnecessary'. You're correct, you can totally do everything in the game without them. But the same can be said for Wall Latch, Parkour Mods, most Gear items and at least half of the weapons and Warframes available to us.

Warframe is a customizable PvE: it's easy. Most PvE is. There is no issue with beating any mission, as long as you properly prepare and have some modicum of skill. Warframe is more about completing the mission your way. The problem presented to the player in Warframe is usually not "Can you win this?", but rather "How will you win this?". Riven mods allow more weapons in the late game content of Sorties etc. and give the player more options to satisfy that "how". The fact that each Riven is unique can also lend to the player's personal experience. While not bearing any huge statistical importance, it can be fun running around knowing that your weapon is entirely unique.

1 hour ago, Redthirst said:

Sorties? Why would you play them once you have your Riven mods?

For the fun and the challenge. If you're only doing this for the rewards, you should maybe take a break from the game, change up your playstyle and/or do some reading into Skinner boxes. And I'd better not see you making threads complaining about grind.  

Edited November 20, 2016 by SenorClipClop

[(XBOX)SolemnShadow777]

Yes, true indeed. I personally have always used the Lato (Both ironically and legitimately?) And, while I had a great build for it that scaled reasonably well, Riven ultimately helped push it up a bit higher into being usable for day-to-day high end activities.

[Dead_Rabbits]

On 11/20/2016 at 1:48 PM, Zia_Avenicia said:

. I know plenty of people who would love to use weapons like the Flux Rifle

Can confirm, Flux rifle is now my go to weapon for everything now.

[Wolfdoggie]

They've been able to decently raise some weapons to be usable in things they were 100% garbage in before which is a good thing. It adds a lot of extra work to do though to make your worthless trash match up with an overpowered weapon you've already forma'd and made even more OP. So they generally are pointless if you rather just stick with something already strong instead of putting tons of blood and tears into a weaker one.

The 15 Limit confuses me because there'll be a time when you're content with the Riven you picked up and I'm pretty sure many people, including me, will just skip doing the Sortie because they can't hold any more and either wanna keep current ones or still waiting to sell one. Also excessive bad luck makes Kuva farming an insane amount of repetitive work for potentially nothing. I'm already burnt out of the current method and gave up on making my Supra mod useful, among other ones after a total of 30+ rerolls. Going to just stick with what I been using (without Rivens) till more ways to get it are added. 

Also, I Melee mainly, with all types of Melee weapons... recently a fellow Tenno who failed in his previous attempt in the Eximus Defense Sortie2 on Friday got matched with me in his next game and mentioned to us that the Sortie was really difficult and I eventually asked; "When do the mobs get strong?" Further into the mission his response was; "You are just too OP." So yeah, I'm at that stage where my best weapons and Warframes are completely unmatched by anything this game throws at me so I really don't need to do anything with Rivens at all if I don't want to. It's just busy work that will hopefully lead to having fun added to a terrible weapon.

If they wanna copy dungeon crawler games like Diablo 2 and Path of Exile by giving us randomly rolled weapon affix drops wouldn't it just be better to add Rivens as a completely random drop from all missions? Since good/bad stuff drops from everywhere in games like that and it seems to be the inspiration for them anyways. Idk, I just feel like this system doesn't really work out fully as an end-game thing. Then of course there's the solution of actually adding challenging content that doesn't require waiting literally several hours in an endless mission for enemies to be upscaled to a point where they can actually effect you.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Wolfdoggie

[Hypernaut1]

fun., Fun is why Riven mods make sense. We dont all want to use Tonkor for everything. I enjoy bringing my Karak out without feeling like im gimping myself for style. 

[Voidforged]

The reason Riven Mods are stupid is because of the slot cap.

There are 15 slots. I'm gonna get Rivens for the 15 most powerful weapons and forget about trying to make any of the less viable ones keep up.

Judging by everything I've read, this isn't an uncommon opinion.