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[Feedback] Thoughts on the revamped Endless Fissure missions


GhostlightX
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OK to quickly summarise the recent changes to Endless Fissure missions...

  • They have added the Defence mission type to the list
  • Each milestone (eg 5 waves for Defence, 5 minutes for Survival, 200 Cryotic for Excavate etc) reached activates a increasingly valuable bonus such as credit or resource boosters etc, and the further you go the greater the chance of getting rare relics and mods as your milestone reward.
  • At each milestone, you crack your current relic, and may pick another one for the next milestone. This makes this the best and most fun way to crack relics now (imo ofc)
  • The fun buff the player gets for cracking a relic is now meaningful, because it lasts until the next relic is cracked (usually) - meaning it lasts through 5 waves of Defence for example. This results in some tremendously fun gameplay. Inifinite ammo/no reload for your Tonkor through 5 waves of defence is incredibly fun. And the Warframe buff (increased Power Range and Power Strength), stacks if you are lucky enough to get that one a few relics in a row! I had Frost on Helene and my Ice Bubble ended up larger than the entire Helene map, so you could not even see it. Every enemy in play was in the bubble and thus frozen. It was extremely fun and all sorts of fun gameplay possibilities that players will have never experienced before can result from this.

To my mind, these are great changes. Players are actually taking Endless Fissure missions further than the first milestone. In fact 5 to 8, or even 10 milestones is not as unusual now, if the team is good enough to get there. I have also read that DE actively want to encourage people to take endless missions further - presumably because very high milestones in endless is as close to a skill-based end game as WF can get right now, and everyone likes endless missions, right? - and these changes all help that tremendously.

However they are not enough. I'd like to add a few points of feedback of where I see the Endless Fissures lacking that little bit of pure gameplay magic that will make players sit up, take notice and play thiese things repeatedly to 50 waves, 100 waves, the sky's the limit! [Note I am going to be talking mostly about Defence, as that is my favourite mission type].

Variety: It is rather sad that only one enemy type appears on each of the Defence maps. If it's Helene it's Grineer; if it is Sinei it's Corpus etc. This should be mixed up more so that the enemy type is random on each, giving more varied gameplay.

Reward: the current buffs are good but still not enough to make all players want to go as far as they can; and thus actually think carefully about what they bring to the team. 50 to 100 waves of Defence is a big commitment, and the reward needs to be proportional to the time involved and the teamwork and skill required. Make no mistake, Sorties are a gentle walk in the park compared to late game Endless.

 

Which brings me to my key argument....Riven mods. It is fair to say that a huge number of the player base feel rather angry, frustrated and insulted by the current system of acquiring this most sought-after of mod type. These are the endgame mods, they should be rewards for end game challenges. Newsflash: this is not Sorties. Sorties are very easy for a huge number of players, and for anyone else, it is extremely easy to get carried through them anyway. Also, many people simply do not like them. Making Riven mods drop only from a skill-free challenge like Sorties, and making it pure RNG with a drop chance that appears to very low indeed; AND only allowing that die to be rolled once per 24 hours, is about as bad loot design as I can actually imagine. This can come to no good and will succeed only in frustrating the player base if not driving them away completely. No one like RNG like this.

So what if Riven mods could drop in endless missions (Fissure ones or otherwise, it doesn't matter)? They would be a potential drop between milestones. Let it start at a very low chance, such as 1% for wave 5. Increasing by 1% each milestone. So even at wave 50, it is still only a 10% chance; at wave 100 it is 20%. These things are not guaranteed.

WHY IS THIS A BETTER SYSTEM?

  1. It completely rewards the most skilful players and most organised teams. These people will get to further rmilestones quicker and thus have more chances to get a Riven than less-skilled players or disorganised teams. It will also reward people who put more hours into the game than others, all of which is right and proper for a loot-based game.
  2. This makes people feel they are actually earning the most sought after items in the game rather than praying to RNG once per day. RNGesus does not reward the worthy, he rolls the dice and slaps most of us in the face. Trust me, players LOVE the feeling of earning their loot fair and square over the RNG approach.
  3. We now have a skill-based end game for Warframe. Something it has been sorely lacking. Skill-based end games keep long-term players playing. This is absolutely key to long-term success for the game and a solid player-base. Right now I am willing to bet that long-term players are simply logging in to do the Sortie once per day in the hope of a Riven, then just leaving in frustration when they get 2k endo instead. Let's reward the worthy.
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I agree on almost everything, only thing I disagree is the skill part, as enemies in endless are the same sh*t we have in Sorties: same boring enemies with inflated stats.

So far the ONLY skill-based PvE gameplay we've had was The Index Preview. The rest of the pve game is just "pick the right frame and most op weapon and call it a day".

Unless Endless modes (not just f^cking fissures) add variety and difficulty in the form of more complex and powerful enemies as you go that aren't just regular folks with inflated lvl.

For example, say you initiate an Apolodoro (6-11) run.

At Rotation A1 you see only Lancers, Butchers and Soldiers.

At RotA2 Scorpions and Powerfist start showing up

At  RotB1 Heavy Gunners, Scorch, Dhrak masters and Seekers appear

At RotC1 Elite Lancers, Bombards and Ballista show up

At Rot B2 Hyekka masters and Helions appear

At  RotC2 Napalms and Manics show up

At  Rot B3 Nightwatch/Kuva enemies show up, replacing all previous units.

At  RotC3 Executioner-like enemies in small quantities and Kuva Guards&Jesters show up in groups of two Guards, 3 Jesters every Rotation

At  RotC4 Executioner-like enemies become common spawns and Kuva Guards&Jesters show up in groups of two Guards and 3 Jesters every Rotation

From then on, every Rotation C brings a recolored/skinned Boss to the fight.

From the first Rotation C, every enemy gets a -2% status duration buff per rotation (capped at 80%) and 2% chance to resist Stagger and Knockdown (capped at 60%) therefore they become more resistant to CC as you go.

 

Assuming such difficulty is added, award a Riven mod with 20% chance at every RotC beyond C3

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Agree with this.

Right now the greatest issueswith riven RNG is that the sortie reward leaves the player completely powerless. You log on, you play sorties for 30-45 minutes, you don't get a mod, you feel bad about it and log off.

You have absolutely no control over acquisition. You can't spend more time, you can't try harder, you can't change your strategy. You can just wait for your once-per-day roll and hope for the best, then wait until tomorrow.

This doesn't encourage people to play, it encourages them to log off. Why bother if there's literally nothing you can do until tomorrow to up your chances?

This will encourage players to take endless missions much further, with a reward they actually want to receive.

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19 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I agree on almost everything, only thing I disagree is the skill part, as enemies in endless are the same sh*t we have in Sorties: same boring enemies with inflated stats.

You are forgetting enemy density increases with each wave as well, so there is genuine skill needed. What's the furthest wave you've ever gotten to for example? Have you seen wave 100? Just curious. Don't get me wrong, it's a low low skill bar compared to other loot games, but it's there none the less. And it's higher than the non-existent skill bar for Sorties.

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Just now, GhostlightX said:

You are forgetting enemy density increases with each wave as well, so there is genuine skill needed. What's the furthest wave you've ever gotten to for example? Have you seen wave 100? Just curious. Don't get me wrong, it's a low low skill bar compared to other loot games, but it's there none the less. And it's higher than the non-existent skill bar for Sorties.

 

Also while it's theoretically possible to get to wave 100, 200, 500000, it depends largely on team composition and cohesive strategies. It rewards players who coordinate and communicate.

This is evident when MR 18+ players go down before wave 20 in fissure sorties.

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7 minutes ago, GhostlightX said:

You are forgetting enemy density increases with each wave as well, so there is genuine skill needed. What's the furthest wave you've ever gotten to for example? Have you seen wave 100? Just curious. Don't get me wrong, it's a low low skill bar compared to other loot games, but it's there none the less. And it's higher than the non-existent skill bar for Sorties.

Well, not wave 100 cause I hate defense with a passion you wouldn't believe. I do like Sortie defenses tho, I just hate defending useless garbage, at least the sortie dude can shoot. I have done my long arse Survival and Interception runs, and the so called "endgame" is the same sh^t as sorties: lvl inflation and nothing else. And I did them solo as a non-bladespam Ash.

Honestly I think Endless missions shouldn't increase in lvl, instead a debuff be applied to players that reduce damage done and increases damage taken, so the players take proportionally the same damage and deal the same relative to health to enemies as enemy lvl scaling, but making the uselesss Cryopods/Excavators not explode from a random sprayed bullet or the edge of a bombard's rocket's explosion. That would also open for enemy variations as my example above without making already strong enemies insane by lvl scaling.

Edited by Nazrethim
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Endless Fissure missions, unless you're running a survival and get stopped every 5 minutes.  Takes all of the momentum out of combat, which is the mechanical premise of Warframe.  There are plenty of examples in the forums and even from dev streams on preserving the momentum and fluidity of combat, so why am I hitting a brick wall every 5 minutes?

Edited by Jookyou
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44 minutes ago, Jookyou said:

Endless Fissure missions, unless you're running a survival and get stopped every 5 minutes.  Takes all of the momentum out of combat, which is the mechanical premise of Warframe.  There are plenty of examples in the forums and even from dev streams on preserving the momentum and fluidity of combat, so why am I hitting a brick wall every 5 minutes?

because the other options are:

-The game automatically picks a random relic of the apropiate tier (so you never know what the hell are you going to get) with maybe the added tweak of upgrade lvl working as a priority (Radiants get picked first, intact are picked once you have no more relics upgraded)

-The game automatically picks a relic of the same type (so if you have 100 Meso A1 relics you will keep burning those until you run out of them, at which point the game would probably halt the combat to make you choose a new relic stack or automatically pick a random relic type) with maybe the added tweak of upgrade lvl taking priority (radiants first, intact last)

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5 hours ago, Tyrhal said:

I LOVE this. Please, make it a thing. I want it SO bad. This would be actually challenging gameplay. I WANT this.

And would also make ridiculous scaling less of an issue, as enemy difficulty would justify slowing down the lvl scale over time, so by the 60min you wouldn't be facing lvl 100 enemies, but rather difficult lvl 55-60 enemies.

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2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

And would also make ridiculous scaling less of an issue, as enemy difficulty would justify slowing down the lvl scale over time, so by the 60min you wouldn't be facing lvl 100 enemies, but rather difficult lvl 55-60 enemies.

True that. It'd make endless missions much more interesting.

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On ‎22‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 3:07 AM, Jookyou said:

Endless Fissure missions, unless you're running a survival and get stopped every 5 minutes.  Takes all of the momentum out of combat, which is the mechanical premise of Warframe.  There are plenty of examples in the forums and even from dev streams on preserving the momentum and fluidity of combat, so why am I hitting a brick wall every 5 minutes?

Not sure what you are saying here. It's called pacing. Every video game ever has had it. I like the short breaks every 5 waves of chaos. At least they have paused all buff timers now as well, which was badly needed. Now I just need them to preserve my melee combo multiplier. ;P

Anyways, thanks for the positive feedback guys.

Edited by GhostlightX
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