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The Mutalist Cernos needs a look at.


SubjectXIII
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24 minutes ago, SubjectXIII said:

Specifically the scaling of it's toxic cloud. Unlike it's launcher cousin the Torid the cloud does not scale with elemental/physical mods. Only with Base Damage mods.

That little change would make things go a long way for the M.Cernos.

It's been scaling with elemental mods for me. I'll test it again to make sure I've finished testing, and it does scale with elemental mods. Perhaps it's bugged again, on PC. It is currently one of my favorite primaries.

Edited by (PS4)Darth-Escar
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2 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

It's been scaling with elemental mods for me. I'll test it again to make sure I've finished testing, and it does scale with elemental mods. Perhaps it's bugged again, on PC. It is currently one of my favorite primaries.

Scaling or not the cloud is screwed by pathetic base damage, I believe it's only 5 or 10 damage a tick unmodded and not counting it's proc damage. Crits and damage stacking can only take that 5-10 damage so far.

Edit: quick wiki check since I'm at work but cloud is 5 damage a tick with each tick proc'in toxin which is only half your total toxin damage input (100% base multiplied by base damage and toxin damage mods). So cloud ticks be meh fully modded and toxin ticks are not worth mentioning.

Edited by DarcnyssWolfe
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1 hour ago, DarcnyssWolfe said:

Scaling or not the cloud is screwed by pathetic base damage, I believe it's only 5 or 10 damage a tick unmodded and not counting it's proc damage. Crits and damage stacking can only take that 5-10 damage so far.

Edit: quick wiki check since I'm at work but cloud is 5 damage a tick with each tick proc'in toxin which is only half your total toxin damage input (100% base multiplied by base damage and toxin damage mods). So cloud ticks be meh fully modded and toxin ticks are not worth mentioning.

Like any status weapon, the elements make or break it.

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43 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Like any status weapon, the elements make or break it.

However any decent status weapon has the damage or critical to back those elements. Ignis can be a monstrous status weapon but you'll never see it in high end content because all it has is status and coverage, no damage or critical to back it up.

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33 minutes ago, DarcnyssWolfe said:

However any decent status weapon has the damage or critical to back those elements. Ignis can be a monstrous status weapon but you'll never see it in high end content because all it has is status and coverage, no damage or critical to back it up.

Mutualist Cernos is very good though. (Ignis has ammo efficiency problems, so I haven't fully tested it, but I think it's good, if you bring restores. I won't argue any more about it until I test) The Mutualist Cernos is a little tricky to use though, like most infested weapons. (That's why I love them! So unique!) I recommend using it like any other bow against weaker targets, and quick firing to reduce the armor of stronger ones, then using fully-charged shots to finish them. Corrosive and heat damage is my recommended combo, and corrosive and cold is my preferred combo. Use whatever. Another thing to keep in mind is that it's single-target and AOE at the same time. Fighting clusters of enemies is preferable, but you have to know when they've been worn down enough to kill.

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Assuming a build centered around the clouds, like this one: https://goo.gl/g2206r

Each cloud tick (adjusted for crit and multishot, so consider this an "average per shot" metric) starts out dealing 348 DPS, which increases every second to a maximum of 930 DPS after 8 seconds.   Stacking a bunch of these can contribute a significant amount of damage, especially if they clouds spread between enemies.  there are also additional damage instances that can proc the weapon's element and deal extra damage, so it's not nothing.  Of course, none of this matters because people will clear the screen with their SynSim, but that's not the point.  

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2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Assuming a build centered around the clouds, like this one: https://goo.gl/g2206r

Each cloud tick (adjusted for crit and multishot, so consider this an "average per shot" metric) starts out dealing 348 DPS, which increases every second to a maximum of 930 DPS after 8 seconds.   Stacking a bunch of these can contribute a significant amount of damage, especially if they clouds spread between enemies.  there are also additional damage instances that can proc the weapon's element and deal extra damage, so it's not nothing.  Of course, none of this matters because people will clear the screen with their SynSim, but that's not the point.  

I fully admit I have yet to try a pure toxin build, will test it out immediately as I've tried a few builds back during it's flavor of the month. Tried corrosive stripping, blast cc, and even a 90tox/60heat build for high aoe, all of which failed to produce any decent results above the star chart.

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6 hours ago, DarcnyssWolfe said:

I fully admit I have yet to try a pure toxin build, will test it out immediately as I've tried a few builds back during it's flavor of the month. Tried corrosive stripping, blast cc, and even a 90tox/60heat build for high aoe, all of which failed to produce any decent results above the star chart.

Pure Toxin is obviously best for Corpus (bonus points if you bring Saryn,) but you can swap in Stormbringer instead of Fast Hands for armor-stripping, etc.  As long as you have the Toxin mods on there, the autoprocs will be boosted even if the Toxin mods are combined with another element.  The performance will not be phenomenal in 70+ (except against crewmen and armor-stripped Grineer,) but is not all that bad.  The actual bow is not too bad either.  

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my only complaints are the Status Chance of the Cloud is pretty mediocre and that most of the effective Status Chance is in the Arrow - and that this problem is made worse by that clouds use the Continuous Damage Model so they don't roll for Status very often.

if those two problems, weren't - this would be a very nice Weapon for its Theme.

 

it also should probably get 15-20 from each Ammo Pickup since it is purpose built to use Ammo more rapidly than other Weapons in its Archetype.

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1 hour ago, taiiat said:

my only complaints are the Status Chance of the Cloud is pretty mediocre and that most of the effective Status Chance is in the Arrow - and that this problem is made worse by that clouds use the Continuous Damage Model so they don't roll for Status very often.

if those two problems, weren't - this would be a very nice Weapon for its Theme.

 

it also should probably get 15-20 from each Ammo Pickup since it is purpose built to use Ammo more rapidly than other Weapons in its Archetype.

The cloud proc rate is definitely lower, though it procs enough to fully strip armor of level 140 heavies after a few seconds, provided you quickfire with split chamber and 100% pre-multishot status chance.

IDK where you're getting the continuous damage behavior from; in that case increasing fire rate enough would guarantee a proc every second, which is not the case (sometimes you get droughts, other times you get a proc on every tick, regardless of fire rate.)

As for ammo, just use Carrier or something.  Even when you're powerspamming, droughts should be relatively rare unless you're having real trouble killing stuff but, Carrier or yellow pizzas will remedy the problem amply.  

Edited by RealPandemonium
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8 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

provided you quickfire with split chamber and 100% pre-multishot status chance.

IDK where you're getting the continuous damage behavior from; in that case increasing fire rate enough would guarantee a proc every second

Even when you're powerspamming, droughts should be relatively rare unless you're having real trouble killing stuff

that's the problem, you have to spam Arrows to get a consistent stream of Status Effects.
but it has a Cloud, that's like the entire point of the Weapon?!?!!? and yet it ISN'T the majority of what the Weapon does? just wut

it uses the Continuous Damage Model, but you don't affect it like a Continuous Weapon

i don't disagree but it gets the same Ammo input as the other Bows that Kill a line of 12 Enemies for 60,000 a piece - and Mutalist Cernos isn't doing that with the same amount of Ammo without exterior forces to exploit the Cloud way up.
it uses much more Ammo than... any of the other Weapons that share using Sniper (pls it's Special) Ammo, so then logically it should get some more.
that's all.

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10 hours ago, taiiat said:

and that this problem is made worse by that clouds use the Continuous Damage Model so they don't roll for Status very often.

That shouldn't matter for the Mutalist Cernos's cloud. Continuous damage gives you a chance to proc once every second, which matches exactly with the gas cloud's tick rate of one tick per second.

The base status chance of the gas cloud just happens to be fairly low.

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Just now, Inarticulate said:

That shouldn't matter for the Mutalist Cernos's cloud. Continuous damage gives you a chance to proc once every second, which matches exactly with the gas cloud's tick rate of one tick per second.

which is a problem for Continuous Weapons everywhere else in the game, where they are crappy Status Weapons compared to an Automatic Weapon which can roll for Status 10x or 20x per second as often as it.

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I dont think it needs a buff or any kind of change, people assume too much about the cloud, is only there to proc corrosive and deal toxin damage, with a crit build and with the benefits of headshots the DoTs deal enough damage.

Is a bit funny how mutalist cernos has an easier time killing a level 100 heavy gunner than rakta cernos/paris prime/dread, 5-6 arrows in the head are in most situations enough to kill very high level heavy units, while rakta cernos may take like 10-12 headshots.

A lot of time i use mutalist cernos and pox, both extremely good weapons that people discard for weapons with higher numbers without taking more information into consideration.

I wouldnt recommend using heavy caliber tho, you lose a lot of potential corrosive procs + DoTs if you dont hit the two arrows on your target.

I saw a similar thread on reddit, maybe i will upload a quick video as an example.

Edited by Rhaenxys
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