The Second Stream Podcast: The War Within Reactions, New Mods, Player Feedback [Spoilers]

[Sasquatchias]

In regards to which parts of the development teams I'd like to see more in the Devstreams - 

 

My initial vote is for QA people, but I'd also like to see more people who work on balancing and such (outside of Steve and Scott) who can give more in-depth insight as to why they make certain changes, how they decide what needs balancing, etc...

No offense to the two mentioned above but sometimes they tend to clam up or be fairly vague when it comes to balancing talk, especially if there is some sort of criticism leveled at them (actual criticism, not just someone saying they suck because reasons.)

[Alcoholism]

Additional information:

Spoiler

Do you agree with the initial Cycle changes for Riven Mods?

 

Somewhat - I feel like more can be done here in terms of cycling. Right now it is more punishing than rewarding and I don't get that excitement from cycling a Riven mod as I think there should be. In fact the feeling I get is bordering on anxiety because I don't want the time I spent obtaining Kuva to go to waste and more often than not it does. There can be additional options added here such as keeping a particular stat and doing so costs extra kuva - however the value of the stat can be randomised. That way you have a goal to reach.

A good example is let's say you get a Riven Mod for a weapon you really like, but the stats are not the ones you want. So you cycle but you also get an option to spend extra kuva to keep a stat and have it carry over to the new mod cycle. Let's say it is a multishot stat of 70% - you get to keep the multishot aspect but the value % is still randomized each time. So you cycle the mod with the extra kuva cost, you keep the multishot, the new cycled mod will have new stats as usual but the multishot you kept has changed (maybe it is less or more) that is the gamble you take. Then you can make it that after "x" amount of cycles and also depending on the mastery rank lock, it will allow you to keep more than one stat.

This is more exciting and rewarding after using the hard earned kuva, still has RNG as a main component and gives the player a goal, something they know they can work towards.

 

What is your initial reaction to adding Riven Disposition to normalize Riven power a bit better?

Spoiler

 

Other - This is a good idea and all but you guys are going to need to be 100% certain on which weapons have what disposition. One mistake can really anger your players. For example the Zarr has a disposition of Neutral and it is becoming quite a powerful weapon in the right hands. Let's say you guys decide the Riven Disposition on this weapon should change form Neutral to Faint - those people who have been spending a long time cycling their Zarr Riven mod to be just right would not be very happy about your decision. On the other hand people who think the Zarr is overpowered and shouldn't have a Riven Disposition of Neutral are going to continue to complain until you make the changes. I think the point I'm making is that it is quite risky to use Disposition in this way and seeing as it is something you can't quite get right the first time and may be subject to change, then you guys in DE need to let the player know. You have to keep the players in the loop and tell them or explain to them that the meta will always change and this means DE will continue to change Riven Disposition based on that meta.

 

Also on a side note - I feel like the meta weapons are still pretty powerful even with the Riven Mods being Faint. I just don't see why you guys can't just give a little more buff to the non-meta weapons or at least to the ones you guys know are being used the least. I know you have the capability to check that statistics on this - dedicate some time to that. Maybe make a 5 state disposition instead of 3 to really break it down (Weak, Faint, Neutral, Adept, Strong).

 

 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Alcoholism

[ArcusVeles]

God I can't stand listening to these podcasts sometimes.  Every one of the guests just gushes about every update, and seem to actively restrain themselves from even slightly controversial or negative opinions.

I stopped listening to this one when someone started saying Warframe players "aren't used to this kind of RNG" (talking about Riven) when that is exactly the opposite for most of the people I know who want Riven gone.  These RNG elements are exactly what chased me out of other games eventually, because the amount of time investment needed and the lack of agency in the rewards provided made me feel like my time wasn't valued and raw luck (or P2W/scripting) ruled over all.

These feel a lot more like PR pieces than anything.  I'll still participate in the surveys though, at least.

[Deshiel]

2. Sound team pls

[Temragon]

3. Cycle Changes

They're better than at the start, but it should be a flat cost, or at the very least, capped after like three rolls.

5. Disposition

If the biggest goal of Riven mods really is to encourage usage of lesser-used weapons, this must be done. And I think it's a workable idea. It should not be random, though. A weapon's riven potential should be set for any given weapon. They roll X power level Riven mods, nothing more, nothing less. 

Please note: I still believe, from experience playing other random loot driven games, the Riven system causes far more problems than it solves, especially with its stated goals. This feedback is given due to the apparent inevitability of the Riven system.

I'm not insulting anyone here, not namecalling, not dismissing the system out of hand. We don't need a long time with this system to see the downsides because it's not a unique system. We've seen similar in other games. Seen how it works, how they make it work, and how it doesn't work.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Temragon

[Darkvramp]

What ever you are doing to riven mods now, is most definitely not enough, you need to change the system within the next few weeks and not next year, as the system now is almost entirely unsatisfying and indicative of a lazy attempt at new endgame content. Riven mod disposition doesn't help when your riven stats are unstandardized allowing for strong dispositioned weapons to have incredibly weak stats due to RNG. at the same time weak dispositioned weapons can get really high rolls which mitigates the weak disposition. Kuva costs on cycling mods need a cap because it reduces the need for another rare resource that only has a chance of spawning in a mission, on that topic the kuva siphon needs to be a sure chance to spawn to reduce grinding that leads to burnout. We need a way to control the stats on the mod allowing for us to lock in certain stats that we like and cycle the rest, that is a basic rpg concept that is needed here or this riven mod system is a failure contributing to a system that is unlike the rest of the game and more like anti customer developer tactics very common in pay to win games.

You want build diversity, negative damage is not it. There is no weapon in the game that benefits from negative damage. if anything if you want to add damage, you might as well  make the weapon more viable by adding damage to the base weapon instead of adding it to the mod. Zoom is another stat that doesn't increase build diversity, it is a useless supplementary stat that doesn't affect the weapon in any way other than reducing the cone of sight, which reduces you ability to know what is going on around you, which can get you killed. If you instead gave semi automatic weapons the sniper multiple zoom system, that is another thing in its entirety, as it adds mechanics to the weapon that it did not already have.

What the riven system should have been is adding a secondary fire to the weapons that don't have one. In addition you would need to re-balance the weapons to make them more viable. The would in turn lead to you making changes to enemy scaling and that is one of the things people have been screaming and shouting for because it is one of the worst parts of the game. If you do not change and balance the game to reduce the large amount of power creep and enemy scaling issues, this game will fail.

In my opinion this riven system as it is now is an absolute failure. I can only see myself burning out in a relative short amount of time trying to reroll and farm for kuva over and over again to get the mod how i like.

[Chroia]

1. Do you like seeing being-the-scenes information on DevStreams?

> Depends. The 'yes' answer seems specifically aimed at spoilers.
Yes, I'm interested in seeing more of what happens behind the scenes. No, this doesn't mean spoilers. After the fact is fine.
Case in point, I loved the lighting, animation and QA segments this past Devstream.

2. Is there a part of Warframe's development team that you'd like to see as guests more often on DevStreams? (Can choose more than one)

> Occasionally spotlight all the things.

I wrote a reaction post about TWW. I noticed the lighting (for instance), and it affected my experience, but I didn't actively note it to appreciate it, since it's not a primary interest of mine - and (not expecting TWW to be replayable) I'd never have appreciated it had it not been specifically brought to my attention.
I'm sure there are other such aspects, and I'd love to gain a broader appreciation of them.

And aside from a better understanding of how and why Warframe has become Warframe, the tangential learning is always welcome.

3. Do you agree with the initial Cycle changes for Riven Mods?

With the exception of the unveiling challenges (at least in concept), I can't think of anything I like about the current implementation of Riven mods. Clear?
Now, with that out of the way; and with the understanding that my opinion of the initial changes is independent of my opinion of Rivens overall:
> Yes.
Anecdotally, given the frequency and quantity at which we can actively gather Kuva, I wouldn't have bothered rerolling a Riven more than twice.
Now I'd consider a 5th and 6th reroll.

4. How would you rate your first Riven mod(s)?

> Bad.

On 11/15/2016 at 2:06 AM, Chroia said:

I got a mod that gives me punchthrough, zoom and increased damage vs. Corpus and -100%ish crit chance on my Gorgon, another that gives +% max ammo and reload speed to the Synapse. How does this make them play differently?

On the bright side, I didn't get -damage and -multishot, so it's not terrible.

5. What is your initial reaction to adding Riven Disposition to normalize Riven power a bit better?

If I'd heard the stream before the hotfix deployed, I'd've had to say > Unsure.
Having seen the changes, though...
> Other

On 11/15/2016 at 2:06 AM, Chroia said:

With a handful of exceptions, bonuses from mods are percentile.
If a weapon has the stats to support a damage/crit/status build, the tools we already have suffice.
But giving me +300% crit chance/damage on my Miter, or +300% status on a Braton (5% base) makes effectively no difference.

I got a mod that gives me punchthrough, zoom and increased damage vs. Corpus and -100%ish crit chance on my Gorgon, another that gives +% max ammo and reload speed to the Synapse. How does this make them play differently?

And as long as these mods remain a percent of the base stat, "sane" values (read: around the values of existing mods, and the sanity of some of those is - at best - suspect) of straight stats will never change how a weapon plays.
At best, you'll get a combo of some mods you already use, which will let you stack up or replace something for more damage (assuming non-meta weapon).

I mean, give me a weapon that grants a flat +50% status to... idk, the Ignis? The Panthera? The Hind, Ogris, Rubico (just to name a few)? Suddenly those weapons play completely different (well, except the Rubico).

Give me a mod that grants a flat +% crit... actually, nevermind that.

Give me a +% flight speed, 'explodes on return' and -#bounces Glaive P mod, I'd be ecstatic... because I could replace 3 mods with 1, meaning I might actually be able to do some damage with it.
And then I'd realize that all you did was bandaid the problem with a mod instead of addressing the root issue. Again.
And I'd be pissed. Again.

Given the bonuses being percentile, there's not enough differentiation between the 'faint' 'neutral' and 'strong' values to make much of a difference for statistically weaker weapons.
Between that, and the absolute value from a percentile increase being greater from a larger base, the straight-damage bonuses for 'faint' disposition Rivens for already-strong weapons are too large.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Chroia
GFDI, Forum editor

[Ace_Kayo]

about #3 and #4
 

Spoiler

The whole Riven mod system needs to go. I don't know why something like this wasn't even brought up in the Design Council to get feedback before implementation, as it seems like a very unpopular/volatile system as-is.

Here are some of the reasons why the whole Riven mod system does not work:

Many layers of RNG - you need Kuva to reroll, a new material that is RNG to even get to show up (at the time of writing) and it is needed even in new weapons and in the Dojo's lab, and the amount goes up per re-roll? Some stats and weapon types shouldn't even be in the pool as well (sentinel weapons, zoom, etc). Even how you get Kuva if the Siphon does spawn isn't fun gameplay. We don't need any more senseless grind combined with RNG, and we don't need more potentially bad rewards in sorties.

The game isn't even ready for multiple random stat mods. The reason being is the lack of an Auction House style trade system (that could support sorting varied stats). With Riven mods being extremely varied, and considering the current small cap of Riven mods that one can hold, trading is a must with these mods no matter how you look at it. Though they are tied to a certain weapon, have MR requirements, and have numerous varied stats, trying to find what you want is near impossible. Having Kuva amount go up per re-roll only worsens the whole trade situation as well; If you found a Riven for a weapon you like and wanted to re-roll the stats yourself to fit your needs, you might be in stuck in bad grind fest.

The mods are supposed to be for "weapon balance". Sorry, but I don't think anybody is buying that. Why would you attach a high rank Mastery Rank RNG Riven mod for a low MR weapon and expect it to be all better, especially when there are Riven mods for perfectly fine weapons that really don't need them? If this was really the case, instead why not have special upgrade blueprints that you throw the base weapon in? Could even use MR there for that idea. Don't need some archaic mod system to do that.
 

 

Edited November 22, 2016 by Ace_Kayo

[_Rue_]

Riven mod Cycling is too random and expensive. Give it more structure to make it worth the cost

also allow people to chose the weapon the riven is for, the under used weapons and dispositions should be available info not hidden. Meke the ranges for ewach stat possibility per disposition available so we can tell if the riven mod we have is okay or if we should go for more.

[UvBenServed]

Morality Choices

Spoiler

Something that was brought up a couple times about TWW was the idea that people didn't notice the morality dial...thing, and didn't consider what gameplay effects it could have later down the line, which allowed them to be as free as the wanted to be with their choices. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who did that, but my experience was the exact opposite.

I immediately assumed there would be some sort of gameplay aspect to the choices we made. There's a lot of other games out there with morality systems, 99% of which pretty much require that you be all "good" or all "evil" in order to get the best outcomes (bioshock, infamous, mass effect, etc). So (knowing that the quest would end up being replayable sooner or later anyway) I made all "sun" decisions, even if that wasn't really the choice I most wanted to make.

Unfortunately, that kinda backfired once I finished the quest and realized that there was no difference (in terms of gameplay) between the choices you make. At least not yet. I think Steve mentioned in the devstream that there WILL be some sort of gameplay element tied to the morality thing and that we will end up being able to change our current alignment. If that is the case, I am definitely looking forward to it.

Riven Mods

Spoiler

First mod was for a good weapon that I have no desire to use. Second mod was for a bad weapon that I have no desire to use. And today, I got a third mod for a mediocre weapon that I've really wanted to use. Before today, I completely ignored the riven system. But now I'm excited to throw a bunch of forma onto my prisma gorgon to make room for this new mod. Especially since I got lucky and didn't have to reroll my mod to get a set of stats that piqued my interest.

Spoiler

Gorgon Sati-armatox:

+54.1% Magazine Capacity

+90.6% Toxin

+104.4% Multishot

-47.3% Reload Speed

I still have no experience with reroll cost and I'm nowhere near the 15 mod cap, but those do seem like valid criticisms atm. One change I still really want to see is some sort of reliable way to acquire riven mods. Maybe we'll get that with that new quest that's supposed to explain the lore behind riven mods. If not: Teshin weekly mission, Baro ki'teer sale, Kuva fortress related drop, etc. Pretty much anything besides JUST sorties.

Player Feedback

Spoiler

When it comes to hostile player feedback, anonymity is definitely a huge factor. But another factor that I think should be taken into consideration is just the desire to know that you're being heard. For example, when a child throws a temper tantrum and ends up breaking something, it's generally not because they wanted to break something or because they wanted to upset their parents. It's because there is something that is bothering the child that they don't know how to handle. All they know is that they need to get their parents attention to deal with it.

And that's kind of how player feedback goes sometimes. If players feel like they're not being heard, they get increasingly frustrated and try harder and harder to get attention. Which often comes across in a very hostile, unproductive way. And to DE's credit, they are far, FAR better than any other developers I can think of when it comes to communicating with their player base. But a lot of people play this game and DE can't listen to everybody.

Heck, there's a chance that this post will never be read by anyone at DE. But in case I'm wrong...I guess what I'm trying to say here is, there will never really be a way to STOP hostile player feedback. It's impossible to make everyone happy and some people are just gonna be jerks no matter what. But I think the best way to mitigate the hostility is to just keep talking to the players and keep remaining as transparent as possible. Just letting them know that you hear their concerns and that you're doing what you can to address them appropriately should be enough to keep most players from...well, throwing a tantrum.

And if you ever feel like the hostile feedback is getting to you, maybe try forcing yourself to focus more on positive feedback. The bad does tend to stick out more than the good, and sometimes you have to remind yourself that people really enjoy this incredible thing that you've spent the last few years creating. I'm not saying you should ignore genuine criticism, but you need to let yourself accept praise and pat yourself on the back from time to time.

 

[Chroia]

Nice lineup this week.

-----

'Morality':
You talk about the choices being balanced. I'm assuming this is an overall stat.
I want to see that broken down by choice.
I mean, 0+0+0+0 =  0, but so does 1+(-1)+1+(-1).

I replayed TWW and ended up exactly neutral despite murdering the queen and consuming the Kuva.

-----

DO NOT TIE IN-GAME EFFECTS to the morality system, if you at all care about the story/RP of Warframe.
Once it affects gameplay it stops being a story and becomes both a system to game (I want this reward, so I need to make this choice) and a shackle (I want to make this choice, but then I'll lose my 100% morality mega-ultra buff.)

 

Speaking of morality,

what the Tenno does with the (ONE) Kuva at the end is made out as some kind of big deal.

Then I run Adaro (Sedna) and walk away with 550-650 of them.

I'm chalking that down to gameplay and story segregation, but it's still jarring.

-----

'NOT USED TO THIS KIND OF RANDOMNESS'? Are you ^@$(ing serious?!

On 11/22/2016 at 1:13 AM, ArcusVeles said:

God I can't stand listening to these podcasts sometimes.  Every one of the guests just gushes about every update, and seem to actively restrain themselves from even slightly controversial or negative opinions.

I stopped listening to this one when someone started saying Warframe players "aren't used to this kind of RNG" (talking about Riven) when that is exactly the opposite for most of the people I know who want Riven gone.  These RNG elements are exactly what chased me out of other games eventually, because the amount of time investment needed and the lack of agency in the rewards provided made me feel like my time wasn't valued and raw luck (or P2W/scripting) ruled over all.

These feel a lot more like PR pieces than anything.  I'll still participate in the surveys though, at least.

One thousand times this.

Re: "unused" to randomness:

 

The thing that got me into Firefall, way back when, was the player agency of gear creation.
It's the main reason I gave up on Borderlands so thoroughly that I dropped 1 halfway through and never touched it again.
Similarly with Path of Exile. It's and isometric click and slash, which Diablo totally soured me on (because stats>>skill), and it has Diablo-esque gear generation.

And, of course, Diablo.
I loved Diablo 1. I played normal a couple hundred times. I don't think I ever played Nightmare.
Even with random gear, a person can reasonably expect to play through all of Normal.
As enemy resists and such start getting more and more common, though, you become more and more restricted by your (randomly generated) gear.
Thank you, no thank-you.

I couldn't stand Diablo 2.
If anything the Median mod series for it, by Brother Laz, is the "Diablo" I spent the most time with.
(And it wasn't for the gear, it was because it played like a completely different game.)
Yes, having a good roll on gear made a world of difference, but there were many many many options that gave a player agency in what they get, if through Runewords, tiered uniques, ways to weight the random modifiers on a specific item, the ability to reroll a specific item (to keep the base item, but with new stats), ways to guarantee certain modifiers on the weapons you're rolling, or straight-up the ability to add chosen modifiers to gear (at the cost of raising its required level).Heck, it's the secondary of two reasons I stopped playing TERA.
This is TERA endgame: queue for static, formulaic instance that drops something you need. Clear dungeon. Hope for drop. Hope for diceroll. repeat. (and, eventually, farm dailies and dungeons for materials to upgrade said gear.)
Playing an instance the first couple times is fun: New, unfamiliar and challenging - all of which can be summed up as 'exciting'.
But I don't enjoy repeating the static, formulaic instances ad nauseam, and am certainly not sticking around to farm gear so I can do them some more just so I can open up the next tier of instances and start all over again.
(Sidenote: See - Trials.)

-----

I've been disengaging with Warframe for around a year now. Some choices have raised red flags, indicating Warframe heading towards a 'no, I'm not willing to put up with this' change - if the trend is continued. But as yet, I'm still here.
I give feedback (often, as here, reams of it) when I see these choices made, make a mental note to watch followup, and then go on with my life.

Forget 'tentative, concerned observation'.
Rivens becoming part of the game mainstream, as they're currently implemented and in the current damage and scaling systems, will make me drop the game in a hot second.
(And I'd like to make clear, I'm not threatening. And, honestly - even if I was, who cares?)
I'll be sad for the game, I'll be sad for myself, but that's a direction I'm not willing to put up with anymore.

tl;dr - No, I'm NOT "unused" to random item generation.
I initially played Warframe for around 2 hours, middle of the week of the Survival weekend. Then I put it down and walked away without a backward glance and played Firefall.
The reason I came back when a bunch of friends from there moved here, was that... idk the word, I had control of my character's potential, not at the mercy of RNG.

Mods are mods, gear is gear, and one is exactly like the other. Once you have them (and, in the last extreme, you can buy them from the market or other players), their efficacy is entirely up to you.
If a game went well, it's mostly because I did well.
If a game went poorly, figure out what I did poorly and improve.

The issue isn't 'not getting exactly what I want'. The issue is can be summed up as RNG > skill.
You want to put RNG in mods? Fine, as long as you make sure that everyone has a workable baseline.
Tangent: This is why I was happy to hear Scott talk about adding starter, 'baseline leveling' (my term) mods to the NPE for new players. To wit: the 'broken' mods, back in... U14?
Of course, then discovering that he made them a random drop drove me straight up the wall. Still does, though the Junction rewards are (fething FINALLY) a step in the right direction.

Back to the subject - workable baseline:
You need damage to get through any mission that isn't Spy or Sabotage (and sometimes even those).
Good luck getting halfway through the star chart in the current damage/armor system if the only damage mods you have look like this, let alone -damage, -faction, or -multishot.
Ammo economy is a big freaking deal for a good reason.

-----

re: Rivens existing vis-a-vis player power

 

Steve keeps lamenting the magnitude of values on damage mods.

Steve keeps agonizing over 'Energygate'.
DE keep adding both innate restrictions (LoS, for instance) on all sorts of player abilities, as well as more and more enemy cheese because players can straight-up shut down areas with 30-70 meter radii at a click.
All of this is exacerbated by Corrupted mods stacking with base mods... and here you're doing it again. WHY?
How unbalancing would even a pre-disposition Tonkor +%Crit damage +%crit chance +% damage Riven be if it didn't stack with any base mod that gave one of those effects?

-----

In the final analysis, you'll do what you decide is best in the current situation. Which is fair.

-----

Re: Burn cards
Utterly useless.
With the possible exception of a bad spawn combination in a finite mission, Warframe doesn't have the encounter design to support 'one-per-mission' abilities.
So I use my consumable to murder this Bombard/Healer/Nullifier grouping in a survival, only for another to spawn 23 seconds later, probably a couple levels higher. What was the point?
The only climactic scenarios these items would be worth using in would be to shut down hitsquads/assassins and bosses.
Which would make them too easy, which -for good reason- DE won't allow.
And so, again, what's the point?

-----

'Happy players are busy playing your game' is, anecdotally, very true, and something of an eye-opener when I first heard it.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Chroia
GFDI, Forum editor

[zoboso]

1.) I thought the behind the scenes reveals were cool, but I feel that it has the same problems that devstreams in general have, namely we (the players) can only ask about things in past iterations, while the [DE]v team primarily operates in a future iteration. 

2.) while it was cool to see Geoff's team getting some of the recognition for their hard work, I find it odd that none of the people working under Scott or Sheldon have ever appeared on the stream (Excluding the halloween parades). (I also excluded steve as Mynki is a part of his department)

5.) I think this is a step in the right direction, but I think it needs several things:

1. a recognition that you are in fact placing weapons into tiers.
2. more granularity just in case a weapon (I'm looking at you lato) needs further tweaking of it's riven's power.
3. a test to see if disposition could/should be expanded to other mods, or could be less uniform across a weapon so that a Riven for a high tier weapon may give weaker damage bonuses but provide better utility and QoL improvements. (note that I do not need to see the results of these tests but more knobs will make rivens easier to balance)

[erny0507]

1. Yes.
2. Balance team. The game is always sorta unbalance in one way or another. I'd like to know reasons why they think the game is fine, maybe I'm not seeing something and they might bring new lights.
3. Yes. But the kuva farming still a mess and broken. The cycle cost must be capped or the whole thing needs to be re done. In other words that systems needs fixing.
4. Horrible. It was for a sentinel weapon. I thought that cycling would change that weapon that would use the mod and nope, it wasnt the case. I ended up using kuva, credits and endo in a pointless mod.
5. I would suggest to tune down more the op weapons riven mods. Still strong enough to keep them on top even more than before.

[(PSN)chaos-SD]

My only issue with the changes to the Riven Cycling system, which was still a great improvement, is the idea of giving a resource with no gain...and I do think that there should be a cost to anything when attempting to make an improvement but perhaps there could be some return.  Maybe 25% or 50% of the Kuva cost?

[Shion963]

4. Really Bad

Paracyst mod with puncture damage and racial damage bonuses.

1. Paracyst is hideous and gimmicky
2. Puncture damage for elemental weapon
3. Mod meant to get you to revisit weapons, but no guarantees that it's for one of the myriad of rifles you have maxed before and kept.

I enjoyed the Augments so much more compared to having to deal with Riven's randomness. At least they're for weapons I want, and usually adds on to a useful aspect of the weapon. IMO remove dud stats and guarantee that you'll get it got something immediately usable, or if that's exploitable, at least pull from the weapons you've had.

 

[Cyborg-Rox]

Do you know who I want to see on a Devstream? AI PROGRAMMERS! We've literally NEVER seen that! We've seen artists, 3D sculpters, sound designers, musicians, writers, lighting artists, animators, most of them SEVERAL TIMES, while we've never had any sort of insight into how the enemies' AI works, what changes are made for them, what work is put into new ones, and so on. I'd love to finally see that!

[Amazerath]

Do you like seeing being-the-scenes information on DevStreams?

Behind-the-scenes stuff is always interesting and inspiring. But I don't think it is wise to dedicate devstream time to that right after a big update that leaves the community with lots of questions or mixed reactions. I think putting out the big fire should always come first and then the interesting and inspiring stuff can be shown at a later date.

Also, please keep in mind the devstream is not your only stream. Prime Time is also an option.

 

Is there a part of Warframe's development team that you'd like to see as guests more often on DevStreams? (Can choose more than one)

The part of the team responsible for designing enemies. Players are always talking about things such as enemy AI, enemy balance, enemy spawns and I think it would be good to know their opinions on some of the feedback we've been providing.

 

What is your initial reaction to adding Riven Disposition to normalize Riven power a bit better?

The Attica is a Mastery Rank 0 weapon. The Attica mod I got is a Mastery Rank 16 mod. Shouldn't that kind of thing be addressed by disposition as well?

I mean, the riven system has successfully made me want to use older weapons. The problem is that I'm only using those weapons as mastery fodder and I trash them as soon as they reach rank 30. Some weapons are not even being equipped as I rank them up.

It feels strange for a system that is supposed to encourage us to use older weapons to be also encouraging us to discard them.

[Chipputer]

While I appreciate letting everyone share their viewpoint, it really felt like you had two people saying something and then a certain other person rambling for 5 minutes basically saying exactly what the other two were saying except in far more basic terms. I feel like these sections should have been edited down because they were actively making me have a difficult time continuing to listen. It was particularly grating listening to them ramble for minutes about how to handle negative feedback where they, once again, basically repeated what was already said except went on to basically say that pure negative feedback doesn't matter. Oh, but they qualified the statement with, "but I'm not saying that doesn't matter," so I guess that made it okay.

I would name names but it should be blatantly obvious to anyone who listens who I'm speaking about.

Other than that, more StallordD, please.

[notlamprey]

1. Big Yes from me.

It's an opportunity to learn more about the practical workings of the development process, and I like being able to link the final product with the people who put lots of hard work into making it happen - this means more when I know more about the work they do, and it's a good thing.

I think it gives us the opportunity to provide better feedback, and it helps keep us grounded when we might otherwise be tempted to get a little out of line with comments.

2. QA, definitely. This is the facet of Warframe's development that I feel like I know the least about. I also feel like it's the point which the community is currently struggling the most to understand. We just don't know enough about the process, or how our active participation in bug hunting might help.

3. Yes, with the caveat that I think much remains to be done.

It's a step in the right direction, and that does deserve recognition. However, costs still scale geometrically and have no cap.

I would suggest trying a different model for increasing cost: a logarithmic model. Cycle delta-cost would be greater at first, and decrease with repeated cycles. This would require some testing to get right, because too flat a curve like "y=log(x)" would risk trivializing the investment that Riven Mods are meant to reward. Done right, the cost would eventually soft cap itself, and long-term investment could be rewarded without trivializing the journey.

Math folks: would "y=2ln(x)" be a reasonable place to start?

Before I move on, I want to say that a set interval with a hard cap is definitely my preferred method for kuva cycling costs. However, we just might have to wind up at some sort of compromise here. I'm open to that, which is why I'm forwarding the idea of a logarithmic model.

4. Really bad, I'm sorry to say.

Spoiler

Subjectively, I felt very hard done by. A mod for the Laser Rifle, with very poor stats to boot. In objective terms, my very first Riven Mod has stats that would eventually cause the weapon to deal no damage at all. Objectively, Laser Rifle has insufficient innate damage, crit chance and status chance to warrant cycling in hopes of "better" stats, so I am looking at a mod with very little (almost zero) value.

The current implementation of Riven Mods has some serious flaws, and I was (fortunately or unfortunately) exposed to them immediately.

5. Unsure, for reasons I'll try to unpack below.

On the surface, it seems like a promising idea.

It has the potential to limit "power creep," which was hopelessly out of control, and is probably still somewhat out of control. As a side benefit, it might also control the more extreme prices that some of these mods might trade for, and that is absolutely a good thing. Items being valued into the thousands of plat just doesn't seem sustainable.

On the negative side, this is having adverse effects because of its implementation. Riven Disposition is calculated according to some means that players won't necessarily understand or agree with. That will hurt how players perceive it. Also, Riven Disposition will need to be calculated individually for every variant of every weapon, because these characteristics can have very important differences between members of a weapon family.

Here comes the worry: we are now looking at one system (Riven Mods) that still needs a lot of balancing and modification before it becomes capable of achieving its stated goals. Now, there is another system (Riven Disposition) inside of that one that will also require some amount of balancing and modification before it is mature.

 

[[DE]Momaw]

On 11/21/2016 at 6:13 PM, ArcusVeles said:

God I can't stand listening to these podcasts sometimes.  Every one of the guests just gushes about every update, and seem to actively restrain themselves from even slightly controversial or negative opinions.

I stopped listening to this one when someone started saying Warframe players "aren't used to this kind of RNG" (talking about Riven)

I can't speak for everybody else, but, I wasn't coached on what to say in any way.  I have a lot of negative thoughts about how Warframe works and areas that it could improve in. But the topics that I would have negative feedback on, were not the topics of the podcast. As DE's guest, it would be rude and disruptive to change the subject away from what DE wants to have a discussion about, in favor of what I want to complain about. If they ask me for my views on balance, scaling, or the metagame, you better believe I would be (politely) very harsh. :D  But when it comes to the quest, the crew behind the game, adding a morality system, and the riven system, i.e. the things we were asked about, I am pretty enthusiastic.

Also I stand behind what I said about players and randomness. Warframe players as a whole are used to a system where the rewards you get are random, in that you might have to run a mission 10 times or kill a boss 20 times, to get the item you want. But the specific traits of the item you get are not randomized. You can look in the wiki and see exactly what you are trying to get and how it's going to fit into your arsenal once you have it.  The riven mods system adds a degree of individual randomness, where not every player's riven is going to be exactly the same. This kind of randomness was seen in Warframe only a very long time ago (before my joining the game even) and not since then. People are comfortable with the idea where they can get exactly the same thing as everybody else if they just work hard enough at it, which is true for a rare mod drop or a rare weapon part, but not true for rivens since every one is unique. So it's a change of pace in that regard.

[UvBenServed]

1 hour ago, Momaw said:

Also I stand behind what I said about players and randomness. Warframe players as a whole are used to a system where the rewards you get are random, in that you might have to run a mission 10 times or kill a boss 20 times, to get the item you want. But the specific traits of the item you get are not randomized. You can look in the wiki and see exactly what you are trying to get and how it's going to fit into your arsenal once you have it.  The riven mods system adds a degree of individual randomness, where not every player's riven is going to be exactly the same. This kind of randomness was seen in Warframe only a very long time ago (before my joining the game even) and not since then. People are comfortable with the idea where they can get exactly the same thing as everybody else if they just work hard enough at it, which is true for a rare mod drop or a rare weapon part, but not true for rivens since every one is unique. So it's a change of pace in that regard.

See, I get what you're saying here and I do think that's it's important to distinguish between different types of RNG. You're right, people who pretty much just play warframe are a lot more used the kind of RNG where if you just keep trying over and over and over again, you will (eventually) get whatever it is that you're looking for. As opposed to the RNG where you do a thing, and then you get a thing, and you have no idea how that thing is going to turn out. That kind of RNG hasn't been very common in warframe up until now.

However, and maybe I'm wrong about this, but I get the feeling that you may be overestimating how much that one factor is the reason for people being upset about the riven system as it is right now. It's not just that there's a layer of "individual randomness" that players aren't used to. It's that there are SO many barriers between the player and what they want. You have random sortie missions with random negative conditions that will give you a random reward. If you get actually get a riven mod, then you have a random challenge to unveil the riven mod, which is for a random weapon and has completely random stats. Luckily, you can change those stats by farming increasing amounts of kuva. And to be fair, I honestly really like the changes DE made to how you actually farm kuva. But still, those are a lot of layers of RNG. And on top of ALL of that, if you don't get a riven mod as your sortie reward, then you have to wait an entire day to try again. Usually in warframe, if you play a mission and didn't get what want, you can just keep playing that mission over and over again until you get what you want or give up. But not with sortie rewards. Usually this is fine, but since sorties are currently the only way to get riven mods, it's just that much more frustrating.

And finally, to talk about the elephant in the room for a minute, it's important to keep in mind that riven mods are what came with the war within. This massive cinematic quest that we waited so long for and was hyped so much. And the quest was cool and all, but what do we get after the quest? The kuva fortress tile set? It's cool, but not much really happens there. Walking around as the operator? Again, cool, but it doesn't really have much of a purpose aside from farming kuva. New weapons? It seems like everyone's favorite weapon is the zarr, which you can just buy with plat. The morality dial...thing? Doesn't do anything yet.

So what do we have to show for completing TWW aside from mods that MIGHT be cool? And I don't point this out to be a jerk, I point it out to make a very important point. If riven mods had come in ANY other update, people wouldn't care if they were hard to get. But because they appear to be the only thing that players have to look forward to after completing TWW, players are very impatient and very frustrated. They want/need that immediate gratification to know that all time and hype was worth it. Heck, for some players, looking forward to TWW was the only thing keeping them playing. I like the idea of riven mods and I want them to do well, but seriously, something's gotta give. I apologize if this post comes across as a bit ranty. I may be a bit salty after getting 3 nitain as a sortie reward...

TL;DR After almost a year of hype, we have a new system: RNG that you can't change, on top of RNG that you can't change, on top of RNG that you can't change, on top of time gating, on top of RNG that you can't change, on top of RNG that you can't change, on top of RNG that you CAN change...if you farm enough. And THAT is why people are upset.

[notlamprey]

11 hours ago, UvBenServed said:

TL;DR After almost a year of hype, we have a new system: RNG that you can't change, on top of RNG that you can't change, on top of RNG that you can't change, on top of time gating, on top of RNG that you can't change, on top of RNG that you can't change, on top of RNG that you CAN change...if you farm enough. And THAT is why people are upset.

Lots of good content in your post, but I wanted to build specifically on this right here.

Not only is it a teetering tower of RNG, it introduces an overt dice-rolling mechanic as a direct path to an "end-game" goal. Previous pathways of item acquisition have all included an element of randomness, but Cycling really is just a slot machine that gets more costly with every pull.

People are divided over how they feel about it, but I'm deeply concerned for two major reasons.

^1.It doesn't currently seem to adhere to DE's stated goal of fairness.

Some few players have gotten, are getting, will get fantastically wealthy by trading these mods. An in-depth discussion about player trade ethics doesn't belong here, but right out of the gate there was insufficient protection against manipulation. These mods do not use standardized stat scaling, their pricing is all over the place, and the value of each player's Riven Mod acquisitions is random to a shocking degree. Trade chat has become completely saturated by Riven Mod trading, rendering it further difficult for new players to use it.

To be fair, we have seen these kinds of market shake-ups before, but players are reasonable to expect better from DE when it comes to minimizing unnecessary volatility. That ball was dropped initially, and I was pretty disappointed to see it.

In the technical sense, Riven Mod acquisition is very fair. Everyone is receiving output from the exact same mathematical machine; equality of opportunity.

However, it does not feel fair to the player. That's a very important distinction, and one that may factory heavily into the future of this system's reputation amongst the player base.

^2.Games that have introduced similar systems have all suffered in the long run because of them.

I've overwhipped this meringue already, but we can't afford to ignore it. These systems are, historically, bad for the health of games. DE will have to be monitoring very carefully, and they'll need to respond swiftly and decisively (like Blizzard did with Diablo 3) if things start to get out of balance.

Variable reward systems absolutely are more fun to engage with for the majority of players, but Riven Mods run the risk of paying out at so low a rate as to be unsustainable. I think a lot of us are just sitting here and having to trust DE - at varying degrees of clench.

One thing is for sure: DE pays attention, and they respond. They're going to have to be even more on their toes than every before, I think.

 

[atom]

concerning the "warframe players don't like RNG" topic i just want to add my opinion as a long time player.
i don't think it's so much RNG players have a problem with as much as not feeling rewarded for their investment.
that may be a subjective concept but i can give clear examples of what i mean:
- exilus adapter BP from sortie (so i get a 20p reward but i have to spend 50p to use it?!)
- riven mod with +puncture dmg for an elemental weapon
- "useless" rewards that cannot be transformed in something useful (arcanes, orvius parts, antiserum injector fragments, etc)

in essence players don't like feeling like they wasted their time. i understand there needs to be a low in order to have a high but maybe low tier rewards can be made better by making sure they actually have a use. maybe allow more of those things to be converted to resorces/endo/ducats/credits.

Edited November 30, 2016 by ..atom..

[0zryel]

With the Riven Mods Im just waiting until the storm subsides and tbh if its such a special Mod should it give you something new? Like a new Twist on the weapons function, something visual, a added mechanic to the system... kinda Like that Broken staff we got that has a unique mechanic getting energy or health from dead bodies is so cool! 

Don't get me wrong the stats and idea behind the Riven mod is awesome... but I was kinda expecting something a bit more...palpable, like mix element that are not possible (like Blast and Fire or Viral and Toxic or Gas etc...) all pile together or something fun and Flashy like kill targets and turn them into Shadows or Infested or Corrupts Versions etc... or make Bows shot arrows like a Boltor Prime or when kill makes enemies explode or create a mine? You know something crazy unexpected but creatively useful.

Well, you get the idea... My vision of a riven mode would be a Mod that lets me have in my Primary Weapon something that is not attainable through the normal mods on that weapon...something unique or different, not just random stats of mix existing mods.

Still like I said I have opted to just collect kuva and wait until the Riven mod storm settles and takes its final functional form. Only then I will put all my effort into it following the advise of the pros who have master it... I really don't want to burn myself experimenting on it only to be change again the next update.

[neameless]

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